Daniel Pinchbeck, How Soon is Now, Heavy-Handed Climate Apocalypse Stuff |343|

And 100 Million human beings were murdered trying to achieve it.

Ignore that fact. "The Workers' Paradise will be someday magically appear if we just give the Oligarchs more power".

At some point, a reasonable, moral person would awaken to the reality that a System IS What it Does.


No they weren't, I'm not even a Communist but I don't consider Stalin's Russia or Mao's China to be examples of Communism, it's just the state controlling the means of production and complete power in the hands of a very small amount of people.

Do we also consider the millions of people that die from starvation every year to be victims of capitalism? Or the deaths from the military industrial complex?

Again just because someone says something is Communism doesn't mean it is.

Nice attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with you as unreasonable or immoral though.

When you or anyone can name a country where all the ordinary workers control the means of production and the society is classless, then we'll talk.
 
The level of cooperation needed to fulfill ideals on country wide or global scale ain't happening with lizard brained human apes.
However, some sort of stable or non conflict society ain't happening til genetic design engineers all them negative traits out and instills
different ones more apropos to some future thingy
 
That's not an argument. You ignored my points about big oil actually creating cap and trade schemes to profit from them.

Companies make money from profit margins and speculation and through whatever scheme they can devise to manipulate things to put them inside the curve. Sometimes companies play the long game and cut margins to drive competition out of business so that they can gain market share and ultimately raise margins more later.

When those within the industry come up with complicated regulations and taxes, this is not self-flagellation for their own guilt in harming the environment. This is to gain market share and improve public sentiment. If you write the rules of the game and you are big enough to afford a fleet of lawyers, you can promote taxation and regulation to improve your PR image while driving out competition.

A great history lesson on How Big Oil Conquered the World



It's not a matter of belief. You can go read the leaked emails where deliberate efforts were made to hide data that did not support the narrative.

Whenever governments throw billions of dollars into "scientific research" with an implicit foregone conclusion, the environment for corruption is created.

The truth is that there is a theoretical basis to support the claim that increasing CO2 to the max will slightly raise the earth's average temp as much as about 1 degree Celsius. It's not a linear effect. There is a saturation point beyond which more CO2 has no effect on radiative heat transfer. We were already just under this saturation point before the industrial revolution began which is why quadrupling the CO2 can only theoretically raise temps about 1 degree C.

This is a THEORY based on a very simplified analysis of radiative heat transfer from atmosphere to space. One key prediction of this theory - that heating would be observed at the altitudes at which the atmosphere ceases to be opaque to radiation in the CO2 absorptive wavelengths - has not been observed.

All the catastrophic AGW predictions were based on models of undamped water vapor and polar ice cap feedback loops that amplified this 1 C increase into 5 C or more increase. But these feedback loop models have so far failed to pan out. It could be that the feedback loops are actually over dampened and the 1 C increase will actually plateau at only 0.8 C, but no one on the IPCC will explore an over-dampened feedbackloop model because that wouldn't fit the narrative so there's no incentive.



I'm with you: we need to invest in renewable energy. I put solar panels on my house and led lights in. Oil and gas needs to play a far less critical role in our infrastructure and industry. But we won't get there solely through top down controlling regulations and taxes (that can be manipulated by the biggest players to their benefit) on the very air we exhale to a global government which were sold to us with untruthful narratives and forced upon us with threats of Soviet-style violence (arrest the climate change deniers!).



Your cards lie to you.

My cards don't lie to me, the arrogance of you and others on this forum who think you have all the answers beggars belief. Like linking me a YouTube video as if it's the supreme authority on this or on any other issue.

You ignored all the examples I gave of where the money actually lies, and you and other climate change 'skeptics' seem to still think that money lies in climate change being sold as real, despite the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary. Look at all the oil pipelines being approved, several countries rely on oil for their economies (Canada, Scotland,Saudi Arabia), barely any countries have a significant amount of renewable energy.

Like I said, as a share of the economy and politically speaking, worldwide very little is done to tackle climate change, it and pollution continues to kill millions annually.

You may not like the methods to tackle it, and yeah obviously companies do whatever they can to make money (one of the many reasons why I am against Capitalism/the free market is that it puts money above everything else). I don't like the methods either, but it doesn't mean that climate change isn't affected by human behaviour, and it doesn't mean that we should ignore the massive amounts of money to be made from continuing to use fossil fuels like we do.

And I repeat, even if you somehow think our actions don't affect the climate, we are still causing pollution which kills millions, using finite resources like they will last forever, destroying animals habitats, and so on.

Whilst you guys continue to think everyone else is wrong but you have climate change all figured out, we will continue to wreck our planet.
 
My cards don't lie to me, the arrogance of you and others on this forum who think you have all the answers beggars belief. Like linking me a YouTube video as if it's the supreme authority on this or on any other issue.

What I see is that anything that becomes politicized, even science (be fun to see some group politicize math for a real knee slapper), pretty much
just becomes someones opinion. One goes to whatever 'evidence' confirms what they want to be so.

I'm personally naturally biased towards man made contributing to and/or exacerbating or 'piling more onto' natural conditions thus making things worse.
However, that's my bias... I'm aware of it. IOW I'm agnostic towards pretty much everything I believe in.
 
There's also been plenty of leaks regarding fossil fuel companies, the Koch brothers etc funding misinformation on climate change:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...h-tobacco-the-climate-wars-are-going-to-court

How do you guys know you're not falling for this type of misinformation?

I've asked this twice, albeit differently, with no answer. Basically I wanted to know how those 'climategate' emails seem to provide the smoking gun as to why a person becomes a climate change skeptic, but then perhaps ignores the same shenanigans from 'their' side.

Tobacco companies case in point, I suppose
 
What I see is that anything that becomes politicized, even science (be fun to see some group politicize math for a real knee slapper), pretty much
just becomes someones opinion. One goes to whatever 'evidence' confirms what they want to be so.

I'm personally naturally biased towards man made contributing to and/or exacerbating or 'piling more onto' natural conditions thus making things worse.
However, that's my bias... I'm aware of it. IOW I'm agnostic towards pretty much everything I believe in.

It's politicised in both directions, I just think the risks of inaction far, far outweigh the skeptical side.
 
I've asked this twice, albeit differently, with no answer. Basically I wanted to know how those 'climategate' emails seem to provide the smoking gun as to why a person becomes a climate change skeptic, but then perhaps ignores the same shenanigans from 'their' side.

Tobacco companies case in point, I suppose

The answer is they don't unless you're already biased in that direction. Climate change, pollution etc are already creating havoc, killing people around the world. The time to take action is now, I guess I should spend more time doing that then debating people.
 
1) So we agree there's never been anything approaching or any movement toward late stage Communism?
Except the USSR and Maoist China had implemented most if not all of the 10 measures which were meant to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie.

if you had said 'so we agree there has never been late stage Communism' then I would agree with you but you said approaching or any movement toward

2) When's the proletariat even been organised as the ruling class?
Well the USSR killed and jailed the capitalist elite, what class does that leave to form the state? Does one suddenly cease being a proletariat when they are in government?

When Stalin went from being a clerk and a writer to a member of the government of Soviet Russia did he cease to be a proletariat?
When Lenin went from being a lawyers assistant to a member of the government of Soviet Russia did he cease to be a proletariat?


Now according to Marx society is made up of 3 distinct classes, from wikipedia(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxian_class_theory):

Marx distinguishes one class from another on the basis of two criteria: ownership of the means of production and control of the labor power of others. From this, he defines modern society as having three distinct classes:


i. Capitalists, or bourgeoisie, own the means of production and purchase the labor power of others


ii. Workers, or proletariat, do not own any means of production or the ability to purchase the labor power of others. Rather, they sell their own labor power.


iii. A small, transitional class known as the petite bourgeoisie own sufficient means of production but do not purchase labor power. Marx's Communist Manifesto fails to properly define the petite bourgeoisie beyond “smaller capitalists” (Marx and Engels, 1848, 25).


Class is thus determined by property relations, not by income or status. These factors are determined by distribution and consumption, which mirror the production and power relations of classes.

Well according to Marx the state of the USSR, not being made of capitalists, must be made of workers.
 
Do we also consider the millions of people that die from starvation every year to be victims of capitalism? Or the deaths from the military industrial complex?
Many do, and why not?

There's also been plenty of leaks regarding fossil fuel companies, the Koch brothers etc funding misinformation on climate change:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...h-tobacco-the-climate-wars-are-going-to-court

How do you guys know you're not falling for this type of misinformation? Or is this another 'globalist conspiracy'? ;)

This is a valid complaint, in my opinion if they can kick up enough dust it keeps people in the Decide phase of the OODA (observe, orient, decide, act). We see this all the time in the media where nothing is ever cut and dry except who we're supposed to hate and bomb this week.

I would say to AGW opponents, what acts do you support to help the environment? I think we will find a lot more common ground if we can share in the probably many many things we DO support doing.
 
I would say to AGW opponents, what acts do you support to help the environment? I think we will find a lot more common ground if we can share in the probably many many things we DO support doing.

I live in the suburbs but I don't have a car. On rare occasions when I need a car, I rent one, otherwise I have a bicycle. I don't use a clothes dryer or an automatic dishwasher. I live in high density housing. I recycle paper, plastic, and glass. I don't have children. My electric bill is about $25 per month (It used to be about $20 but while in many places in the US energy prices are going down, in my area, according to the electric company, fracking has reduced the price of natural gas which has increased demand which because of insufficient pipeline capacity makes it more expensive ???? - and they built a wind farm subsidized by electricity prices too).

I tend to support regulations protecting wetlands because that is where most of the wildlife is. I like to do a bit of nature photography and when I walk through the woods there is some wildlife but when I get to a pond it is completely different, it is teeming with life, it's like going to a zoo. Doing wildlife photography has made me very aware of where the animals are and how aquatic plants and animals are the food for so many terrestrial species which are in turn the food of other species higher up the food chain. For example, in my area the coyotes eat muskrats that feed on aquatic plants. When someone wants to disrupt a stream, or a seasonal puddle, or a pond, they think it is just one little area that wouldn't make much difference. But what many land owners don't realize is that when you add up everyone who wants to disrupt a stream, or a pond, or a seasonal puddle you are talking about a huge amount of habitat and food that other species depend on for their survival. Humans have taken over more than their fair share of this planet's surface. We have to leave some habitat for other species.

And I am absolutely 100% against wind power that kills birds. What a scam! "We have to kill them to save them". This is one reason why I am against the AGM hysteria they are killing birds needle$$ly.

And compact flourescent bulbs create more environmental problems because of mercury pollution - this is another reason I am against the AGM hysteria it is not making things better it is making things worse for no good rea$on.

And it is a similar situation for electric car$ - exhaust emissions are not the only source of pollution from cars
 
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Back to the environmental issue... it made me think of this:
Zizek saying there is no nature, basically. This is all natural.

 
1) So we agree there's never been anything approaching or any movement toward late stage Communism?

2) When's the proletariat even been organised as the ruling class?

That's like going to a weight-loss-center for a diet and seeing that the salesman/instructor is overweight. There are no "before and after" photos on the wall either. You find out this diet can't show for itself ANY successful "before and after" models. To make matters worse, everyone who's gone on the diet has actually GAINED weight, and it seems to have made people go mad. These people following the diet went on rampages, killing others and taking their property. Upon finding this out, you ask the dietary salesman/instructor and you're told that none of those people who had gone mad and started killing people were following the system properly. "There's never been anything approaching or any movement toward it", he tells you.

"Wow", you reply, "in that case, sign me up!"
 
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Dang. Can't read the whole thing. What it goes to is this....

Some scientists have been issuing dire warnings about this. There is even an Arctic Methane Emergency Group. Others, though, think that while we are on course for catastrophic warming, the one thing we don’t need to worry about is the so-called methane time bomb. The possibility of an imminent release massive enough to accelerate warming can be ruled out, they say. So who is right?

Few scientists think there is any chance of limiting warming to 2 °C, even though many still publicly support this goal. Our carbon dioxide emissions are the main cause of the warming, but methane is a significant player.

[me: ok, so we don't need to worry on methane, but the skeptical side is gonna howl on the above, lol]


Methane is a highly potent greenhouse gas – causing 86 times as much warming per molecule as CO2 over a 20-year period. Fortunately, there’s very little of it in the atmosphere. Before humans arrived on the scene there was less than 1000 parts per billion. Levels started rising very slowly around 5000 years ago, possibly to due.... oops, that's it!
 
I've asked this twice, albeit differently, with no answer. Basically I wanted to know how those 'climategate' emails seem to provide the smoking gun as to why a person becomes a climate change skeptic, but then perhaps ignores the same shenanigans from 'their' side.

Tobacco companies case in point, I suppose
What the hell do Tobacco companies have to do with climate? ffs

What shenanigans are on the other side?
 
It's politicised in both directions, I just think the risks of inaction far, far outweigh the skeptical side.
History shows that the risks are all in the actions climate alarmists want to take, i.e. turn over every aspect of our lives to a tiny centralized elite.... hey! Notice how similar that sounds to all the "Not-True-Communism" Communist states! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
 
What the hell do Tobacco companies have to do with climate? ffs

What shenanigans are on the other side?

To clarify.... Tobacco companies sponsored 'scientific evidence' for decades that smoking wasn't harmful

As for the later, what do think it means? Vested interest companies don't fund and bias their own studies to support their pov?
 
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