Michael Tsarion on Race, Jordan Peterson, and Why Conspiracy Work is Spiritual Work |372|

Those tweets tell a lot. The UK is slipping into being a really racist society - one where white people are constantly blamed for the problems of the non-white population. We should level the playing field (possibly a UK expression) if it is not already, and maybe offer some extra tuition for disadvantaged groups, but that has to be an end to it. Adopting goals to get certain numbers of people of a particular skin colour (or sex, or sexuality!) into certain desirable occupations, is most definitely a bad idea, as are the endless efforts (at least on the BBC and The Guardian newspaper) to make non-white people feel they are victims.

Using racial differences for political purposes is frighteningly easy, and very dangerous. We need politicians who stand up to this idiocy.

In the early years of NAZI Germany, there were all sorts of disparaging remarks made against the Jewish population. This constant drip drip of propaganda softened the country up for what was to follow. If when a desirable job is filled by a white person, people wring their hands, "why couldn't we find a suitable non-white applicant?" what are we softening up our countries for in the decades ahead?

David
 
The UK is slipping into being a really racist society - one where white people are constantly blamed for the problems of the non-white population.

This is laughable.

You only have to watch the programme about the murder of the black boy Stephen Lawrence and a few honest police talking about how, if you weren’t openly racist in the force a few decades ago, you’d be shunned. I reckon it’s still the same, only more subtle.

It’s always been a really racist society! It’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how things are, but when you say things like that David, and really believe they’re true, it shows that we are not moving forward.
 
[Rant snipped]

Hmm. Vault313, I usually enjoy your rants. Passion in the service of a just cause is a good thing. But this one is so much of a strawman, especially as it relates to this thread, and so full of disgust to no apparent end that I couldn't enjoy it. Wormwood and TheRaven already pointed out the straws, so I won't do the same. It's a pity you didn't have Silence's advice to step away from the keyboard in advance.

I guess you've seen the sort of views you condemn expressed, or strongly implied, somewhere though? Maybe you could talk about that?
 
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Candace is definitely an Uncle Tom as well. I have never heard of the other two so I can’t give my opinion on them. They are the token black people that the alt right uses in their arguments so they can say, “See? A black person agrees with me too!” It doesn’t make an argument any more or less stronger just because the person voicing their opinion so happened to be a minority. That’s why people are taking Kanye’s tweet semi serious now. It’s because it’s a black man saying it.

It’s actually kind of ironic that you shared two celebrities opinions when Candace made a video about how she doesn’t care about celebrity opinions.You seem to be implying that because Kim and Kanye have a large following they should be listened to, but correct me if I’m wrong. There are other celebrities such as Meryl Streep and Chrissy Teigan that have shared there voices regarding Trump and they have huge followings as well. What makes Kim and Kanye different from the rest of the celebrities voicing their opinion? Is it because they are voicing their love for Trump instead of their hate? Is it because Kanye is black?

Political correctness is not a problem in America. It’s only a problem for those who want to go around screeching racial, homophobic, and transphobic slurs without any consequences. You made a statement that most people want to say something about political correctness but aren’t out of fear. Do you have source for that? You can say whatever you want, it’s a right granted by the Constitution. But, you are not free from the consequences and how people react to what you said. I’m also not sure where you’re getting the idea that what Kanye said is an “unpopular opinion”, considering Trump won?

As far as I’m concerned, Kanye, once again, doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about. I’m sorry, but I don’t “love” everyone, and I sure as hell don’t love Trump. Kanye is making it seem like people don’t have a reason to not like him. My younger brother is transgender and quite frankly, Trump’s transgender ban pissed me off and made me actually hate him. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt back then, but only two months in office and he pulls that crap?! Should we love Hitler even though we didn’t agree with his “policies”? Stalin? Kim Jong Un?

Trump is actively against LGBT+ rights, so I think that gives the community a reason to hate him. Kanye is a rich straight guy so anything Trump does will not affect him. It’s like me being concerned about Parliament even though what happens in the UK will never affect me in any way. As for Kim, she has defended a known racist in the past. She was spouting that “ I love everyone” bullshit that Kanye is spouting now. Her tweet was doing “damage control” and Kris Jenner was more than likely behind it.
 
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Those tweets tell a lot. The UK is slipping into being a really racist society - one where white people are constantly blamed for the problems of the non-white population. We should level the playing field (possibly a UK expression) if it is not already, and maybe offer some extra tuition for disadvantaged groups, but that has to be an end to it. Adopting goals to get certain numbers of people of a particular skin colour (or sex, or sexuality!) into certain desirable occupations, is most definitely a bad idea, as are the endless efforts (at least on the BBC and The Guardian newspaper) to make non-white people feel they are victims.

Using racial differences for political purposes is frighteningly easy, and very dangerous. We need politicians who stand up to this idiocy.

In the early years of NAZI Germany, there were all sorts of disparaging remarks made against the Jewish population. This constant drip drip of propaganda softened the country up for what was to follow. If when a desirable job is filled by a white person, people wring their hands, "why couldn't we find a suitable non-white applicant?" what are we softening up our countries for in the decades ahead?

David

Like Steve said, this is laughable. Do I have to yell it from the rooftops? White people are not oppressed!! You do realize their are scholarships specifically for black people because, here in America at least, black people are more likely in poverty than our white counterparts? No one is making the non-white/non-straight people feel like victims! I am not a victim of anything! But, I have been set up unfairly in a world rigged against me. That’s why I’m an activist. Do you think I just bitch and moan all day and complain about the “evil white people”? I’m going out and changing how things have been done.

NAZI Germany? Really? Did you seriously just compare the hatred and eventual genocide of the Jews to the modern treatment of white people? Your non-white application part is dripping in ignorance. Here in America, a white person with a criminal record is more than likely to get hired than a black person with no criminal record.
 
This is laughable.

You only have to watch the programme about the murder of the black boy Stephen Lawrence and a few honest police talking about how, if you weren’t openly racist in the force a few decades ago, you’d be shunned. I reckon it’s still the same, only more subtle.
Well the level playing field obviously applies to the law and policing as well. I'm all in favour of chasing down the police officers that let this murder go unpunished, and jailing them as well as those who did the murder.
It’s always been a really racist society! It’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how things are, but when you say things like that David, and really believe they’re true, it shows that we are not moving forward.
On the contrary, I want a non-racist society, but that CANNOT be one where there are quotas of various sorts for good jobs, university entrance, etc. A non-racist society has to actually ignore the colour of people's skin (almost by definition)!

The problem is, you can't make a non-racist society by overshooting the sweet point in the middle and introducing reverse prejudice.

Clearly my post has acted like a red rag to a bull, but I wish people would think a bit. For example, if a white role in a play is acted by a black actor, this is praised as being progressive. When the reverse happens, you get universal condemnation.

Where does anybody think this will lead, and how long will such discrimination be considered normal and acceptable? When Nelson Mandela took over in SA, he didn't try to introduce reverse discrimination, he wanted everyone to bury their hatchets and live together.

Those with plenty of money (such as airline pilots, or software developers, dare I say) can ignore the injustice. But try explaining to someone who is white and in need of a council house, and obviously extremely poor, why someone else from abroad has been able to jump the queue.

David
 
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Those with plenty of money (such as airline pilots, or software developers, dare I say) can ignore the injustice. But try explaining to someone who is white and in need of a council house, and obviously extremely poor, why someone else from abroad has been able to jump the queue.

If you’re trying to paint me as being a lucky white airline pilot having plenty of money, think again David. Our finances took a disastrous turn when I had to give up flying, as well as my job in the simulator, when I suffered a ‘moderate to severe’ stroke out of the blue, mid career, a few years after I’d started making decent money.

Think of another example to deflect away from your stance, which doesn’t really hold any water. If things here get mad, if we become the victims, I think it is may well only be karma reflecting our own insanity, as well as our dishonesty, even to ourselves.
 
If you’re trying to paint me as being a lucky white airline pilot having plenty of money, think again David. Our finances took a disastrous turn when I had to give up flying, as well as my job in the simulator, when I suffered a ‘moderate to severe’ stroke out of the blue, mid career, a few years after I’d started making decent money.

Think of another example to deflect away from your stance, which doesn’t really hold any water. If things here get mad, if we become the victims, I think it is may well only be karma reflecting our own insanity, as well as our dishonesty, even to ourselves.
Well I included myself as well, with the software developer. I mean, let's be honest, there are women in Britain who end up doing three cleaning jobs as well as looking after a family. They are constantly at risk of being evicted. That is real poverty, and I talked to people like that on the streets while campaigning for Brexit. Some of them said some pretty bitter remarks about the fact that other races got preferential treatment - some of it may have been justified, some not - all I could do was let them say it and not respond, but it left a question in my head. Can we ever reach a non-racial society if we favour one race over another to try to restore a balance?

Jim Smith quoted a series of tweets - that were saying something similar to what I am saying, in the American context. Clearly, the more the politicians rely on minority support, the less able they will ever be to draw a line under the policy of reverse prejudice.

David
 
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Well I included myself as well, with the software developer. I mean, let's be honest, there are women in Britain who end up doing three cleaning jobs as well as looking after a family. They are constantly at risk of being evicted. That is real poverty, and I talked to people like that on the streets while campaigning for Brexit. Some of them said some pretty bitter remarks about the fact that other races got preferential treatment - some of it may have been justified, some not - all I could do was let them say it and not respond, but it left a question in my head. Can we ever reach a non-racial society if we favour one race over another to try to restore a balance?

Jim Smith quoted a series of tweets - that were saying something similar to what I am saying, in the American context. Clearly, the more the politicians rely on minority support, the less able they will ever be to draw a line under the policy of reverse prejudice.

David
So what's the plan then? There have been two so far: 1) ignore it, there is no problem or the group with power doesn't care to acknowledge the problem. 2) Social, legislative and other regulatory policies designed to increase opportunities for those disproportionately NOT getting them. If you agree that 1 is untenable and believe 2 is reverse discrimination and some form of perpetuating the problem, what's your option 3?
 
Can we stop saying reverse prejudice? It’s just prejudice. That’s it. When you say reverse prejudice you’re low key implying that whites are more likely to be racist/ are the only racist ones, which I’m sure is not your intent.;)
 
So what's the plan then? There have been two so far: 1) ignore it, there is no problem or the group with power doesn't care to acknowledge the problem. 2) Social, legislative and other regulatory policies designed to increase opportunities for those disproportionately NOT getting them. If you agree that 1 is untenable and believe 2 is reverse discrimination and some form of perpetuating the problem, what's your option 3?
Well it is important to realise that doing the wrong thing may make things much worse.

First there should be a big effort to make sure the playing field really is fair. This might mean, for example, spending more money on inner city schools, which typically have a lot of disadvantaged (and often non-white) kids. The kids get extra help, but ultimately they would have to get the same exam grades if they wanted to go to university.

Secondly, I tend to agree with President Trump, that we need to bring more jobs back to the West, which probably means less 'Free Trade'. If there aren't enough jobs for people, there will be a lot of hardship and exploitation whatever people's colour.

Also, you will never get to a non-racial and contented society if you have a constant flux of new migrants. Such people are exploited mercilessly by certain employers, and that in turn takes jobs away from others that have lived here longer but need a bit more pay for rent and such like.

If groups are not taking up opportunities that are available, then the only answer is to discover why. If you simply bias the system in their favour, you really do create resentment, particularly among those at the bottom of society. The ultimate reasons why opportunities aren't taken up, may be subtle - social attitudes of various sorts - and it may take time to resolve the entire problem, but at least if nearly everyone has a reasonable job of some sort, that will help enormously. Raising the minimum wage and blocking some of the loopholes that effectively allow employers to pay less than the minimum wage, would also help.

If everyone had a job, I'd guess that crime would drop quite a bit, and fewer people locked up in jail (many of whom are black) would also help.

David
 
People who think the government should regulate speech and thought to protect people from unpleasant words and ideas don't understand the history of why the people who wrote the US constitution specifically included protection against government infringement on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The founder's did that because they knew that when government regulates speech and thought, it inevitably leads to the government controlling speech and thought for political purposes - to maintain authoritarian control by restricting criticism of the government. And this is what we are seeing today when "political correctness" has become a tool used by the Democrats to silence political opposition.

People who think political correctness is good because it protects them from unpleasantness are becoming few and fewer as more and more of them become its victims rather than its wards.

Dave Rubin: Why I Left the Left.


2:10
I'm a married gay man so you might think that I appreciate government forcing a Christian Baker or photographer or florist to act against their religion in order to cater photograph or decorate my wedding, but you'd be wrong. A government that can force Christians to violate their conscience can force me to violate mine.

2:56
Today's progressivism has become a full moral movement hurling charges of racism, bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia, and a slew of other meaningless buzz words at anyone they disagree with. the Battle of ideas has been replaced by a battle of feelings and outrage has replaced honesty. Diversity reigns supreme as long as it's not that pesky diversity of thought. This isn't the recipe for a free society. It's a recipe for authoritarianism. For these reasons I can no longer call myself a progressive. I don't really call myself a Democrat either. I'm a classical liberal, a free thinker, and as much as I don't like to admit it, defending my liberal values has suddenly become a conservative position. So if you think people should be able to say what they think without being punished for it, that people should be judged by their behavior not their skin color, and that people should be able to live the way that they want to live without government interference, then there's not much left on the left for you.

01:47
Martin Luther King Junior's dream that his children would be judged by their character and not their skin color was a liberal idea but these days is not a progressive ideal. And what about religious freedom: the idea that no one else can tell you what you have to believe? Surely progressives still support that basic right. Well not so much.

2:36
I'm pro-choice but a government that can force a group of Catholic nuns literally called the Little Sisters of the Poor to violate their faith and pay for abortion inducing birth control can force anyone to do anything. That's not progressive that's regressive.

0:42
Progressives used to say, "I may disagree with what you say but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." Not anymore. Banning speakers whose opinions you don't agree with from college campuses, that's not progressive. Prohibiting any words not approved of as politically correct, that's not progressive.

1:11
This has led me to believe that much of the left is no longer progressive but regressive. This is one of the reasons I've spent so much time on my show talking about the regressive left.
 
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That video by Dave Rubin is spot on!

I think progressive leaning individuals should always consider one thing. Politicians are a bloody ruthless crowd - anything to climb the greasy pole - so they aren't supporting all these minority groups out of compassion, but out of their own self-interest. They also won't care a damn about the long term consequences of their actions.

David
 
So all the social problems in America are the Lefts fault? Lol I don’t know why I even bothered to participate in this discussion. It is always said on Skeptiko that close mindedness and a refusal to hear the other side because of your own biases is what stops progress. This is exactly what Jim_Smith and David Bailey are doing. I can’t see how a discussion can work if all that keeps being said are overgeneralized statements that do not apply to the entire Left or progressives. I can make overgeneralized statements about the Right and conservatives:

“All conservatives are racist, homophobic, and transphobic!”
“They’re regressive!”
“They’re sexist!”
“ I’m a straight white guy and I think Conservatives are evil! You have to take my word for it because I’m white and straight!
“Conservatives only care about the rich!”
“ All conservatives are Bible thumping, God fearing Christians!”

You got caught up in the SJW age of 2016 and now you’re applying all progressives to the same standards as them. I think conservative individuals should learn one thing: not everything is the Lefts fault! Also, just because a minority agrees with you, it doesn’t mean you’re right.
 
So all the social problems in America are the Lefts fault? Lol I don’t know why I even bothered to participate in this discussion. It is always said on Skeptiko that close mindedness and a refusal to hear the other side because of your own biases is what stops progress. This is exactly what Jim_Smith and David Bailey are doing. I can’t see how a discussion can work if all that keeps being said are overgeneralized statements that do not apply to the entire Left or progressives. I can make overgeneralized statements about the Right and conservatives:

“All conservatives are racist, homophobic, and transphobic!”
“They’re regressive!”
“They’re sexist!”
“ I’m a straight white guy and I think Conservatives are evil! You have to take my word for it because I’m white and straight!
“Conservatives only care about the rich!”
“ All conservatives are Bible thumping, God fearing Christians!”

You got caught up in the SJW age of 2016 and now you’re applying all progressives to the same standards as them. I think conservative individuals should learn one thing: not everything is the Lefts fault! Also, just because a minority agrees with you, it doesn’t mean you’re right.
As a UK citizen, I have generally preferred Democrat Presidents until recently. However, as I see it, the Democrats have become really cynical in their lack of support for free speech - something that has spread here in a watered down form, and their support for policies that may set back race relations for decades - which has also spread here to some extent.

Sometimes the left-right coordinate system in politics gets rotated round so that the left (whom I traditionally associated with) no longer represent my values. In the US there has always been a certain respect for the president, and yet the Democrats have done their best to bring down Trump starting on the day after the election using charges that seem to be turning out to be bogus:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/27/house-intelligence-committee-releases-russia-report.html

Considering that the President has to handle a whole slew of urgent problems, distracting him in this way is nothing short of treasonous in my book. People who can behave in this way, are obviously completely without scruples, so they are clearly just using all the various minority issues they are supposed to care so passionately about for their own personal gain.

I do have some sympathy when you talk about "overgeneralized statements that do not apply to the entire Left or progressives", but the problem is that the genuine, thoughtful left has been swallowed by the Democrats, who have put in place extraordinarily extreme policies - such as the sanctuary cities, where immigrants are not prosecuted for a whole range of crimes. In what way can that be good for long term race relations in the US?

Silence asked me what policies I prefer instead of positive discrimination (or whatever you want to call it), and I explained my thoughts on that, but nobody responded.

David
 
As a UK citizen, I have generally preferred Democrat Presidents until recently. However, as I see it, the Democrats have become really cynical in their lack of support for free speech - something that has spread here in a watered down form, and their support for policies that may set back race relations for decades - which has also spread here to some extent.

Sometimes the left-right coordinate system in politics gets rotated round so that the left (whom I traditionally associated with) no longer represent my values. In the US there has always been a certain respect for the president, and yet the Democrats have done their best to bring down Trump starting on the day after the election using charges that seem to be turning out to be bogus:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/27/house-intelligence-committee-releases-russia-report.html

Considering that the President has to handle a whole slew of urgent problems, distracting him in this way is nothing short of treasonous in my book. People who can behave in this way, are obviously completely without scruples, so they are clearly just using all the various minority issues they are supposed to care so passionately about for their own personal gain.

I do have some sympathy when you talk about "overgeneralized statements that do not apply to the entire Left or progressives", but the problem is that the genuine, thoughtful left has been swallowed by the Democrats, who have put in place extraordinarily extreme policies - such as the sanctuary cities, where immigrants are not prosecuted for a whole range of crimes. In what way can that be good for long term race relations in the US?

Silence asked me what policies I prefer instead of positive discrimination (or whatever you want to call it), and I explained my thoughts on that, but nobody responded.

David


This entire response was overgeneralized statements about Democrats. Democrats/the Left are NOT against free speech. You can’t keep applying that to the whole party when it isn’t true. Yes, there are some extremist who are against free speech, but those are a few individuals. Once again, you can say what you want, but you are not free from the consequences of what you said.

Whose using minority issues for their personal gain? How are you able to judge who generally cares about minority issues and who is using it for politics? It seems to me you are saying that bringing minority issues to Trump is “distracting him”? That’s his job as President!

President Obama put up with bogus accusations for his eight years in office by conservatives, so don’t act like Trump is getting picked on by Democrats. Fox News? You cannot be serious using them as a source. CNN and Fox News are the laughingstock of the Internet, and for good reason, too. They both pander to there own “side” and misconstrue information to fit their biases.

You either don’t have enough sympathy or none at all because you continue to paint a picture of the Left that is not true. You keep referencing immigrants when the topic is race. Immigrants can also be white, so I’m not really sure where you are getting at? I didn’t respond to your post about policies because of this reason and because, frankly, it seemed to snake around a lot of issues.
 
Scott Adams explains how the way you think about a problem can either hinder or help you find a solution. He predicts a coming "golden age" when we are able break out of our mental prisons and learn to solve problems that are problems of thinking not actual physical problems that require technology to solve.

 
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This entire response was overgeneralized statements about Democrats. Democrats/the Left are NOT against free speech. You can’t keep applying that to the whole party when it isn’t true. Yes, there are some extremist who are against free speech, but those are a few individuals

Did you watch the Rubin video? Democrats have legislated against free speech... In addition they frequently silence individuals they disagree with, or do 'no platforming' to prevent people from speaking at all more and more frequently across school campuses and other locations.

I thought we were all on the same page here that both parties represent big money first and foremost.
left vs right is a joke and if there is a left, its certainly not interchangeable with democrats.

With things like the progressive stack being implemented in mainstream protests such as occupy and black lives matter I don't think you can claim that the 'left' isn't against free speech for they certainly believe in privileged speech.

You can read more about identity politics and the 'left' here - https://www.theguardian.com/society...tity-politics-went-from-inclusion-to-division

Fox News? You cannot be serious using them as a source.
They use this report from the white house as the source- https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180322/108023/HRPT-115-1.pdf

Immigrants can also be white, so I’m not really sure where you are getting at?
Come on now, we both know the immigrants being protected in sanctuary cities are predominantly not white.
 
Scott Adams explains how the way you think about a problem can either hinder or help you find a solution. He predicts a coming "golden age" when we are able break out of our mental prisons and learn to solve problems that are problems of thinking not actual physical problems that require technology to solve.


More from Scott Adams on infowars (The entire video is with Adams)
 
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