Sarah Westall, Trafficking/Blackmail Cycle of Evil |410|

As an addendum to my reply to David, I'm sure someone is thinking that if A is a child molester and B is aware of it and maybe facilitating and B knows C and introduces C to A and C then observes some of the rotten activities of A (and B), that C is complicit in a conspiracy if he doesn't immediately notify authorities.

I disagree, to an extent.

The result of notifying authorities in such an instance would be 1. the destruction of opportunities to achieve something worthwhile on C's part 2. A long and possibly unproductive court case. 3. The personal destruction of C - or at least C's ability to operate as needed. 4. The replacement of A (and maybe B) by yet another creep.

So little positive would be accomplished and there is a definite down side potential for C.

At least that is what humans, like C, are wont to think and do.

We are all very good at justifying to ourselves. You should be able to see how C could justify overlooking something as atrocious as child sex trafficking for the time being. Perhaps he tells himself that once he has achieved a certain position that he will come back and get these guys. Who knows.

I am not advocating assuming such a position, just analyzing how it happens.

Life is messy and complicated.
Not notifying authorities also because it doesn't succeed in various ways. Despair and lethargy are factors too.
This is where a rallying sense of moral obligation does not, or not often exist. People are willing to compartmentalise behaviour as in "yeah he hits his wife and kids, but he's a good..worker, tennis player, friend". We rely on 'the authorities' to deal with this.
I think we are all beholden to exercise self-government and call out anyone who lacks it. External government is there to compensate for lack of this, but as it is part of the current social/political/economic system, its principles are already compromised.
 
You don't fuck with kids. It is that simple. Whether cloaks were worn, the reporter was found to have some inconsistencies in information, and Eric's ABC scenario are alternatives routes in a complex rabbit hole to get distracted or lost in. Little children getting brutalised happens, I believe, from testimony seen online. One child is enough. Saying it's not as often, as weird, an economic compromise is unacceptable to me. And slows down resolute action.

Do we really care? I think we do because deep down we are, or began as matriarchal. We all had a mother, she was the centre of our first home, we were all children once and have/know children and love them. But we are living in (mostly patriarchal) cultures where degrees of exploitation of children, men and women are acceptable. Violence and the capacity to lie, especially to the innocent and vulnerable is successful, and not called out. And we get lost in contradictory debates around the fact.

Without an impulse of the heart, emotional response or culturally-endorsed imperative we have no social moral consensus. And it's not taught in schools.
 
Yes, but that the Hell does he believe in? I used to think he was a somewhat misguided philanthropist, I now suspect he wants nothing less than the destruction of the West - along with many of the people he purports to want to help.

David

David,
He is another that believes he is the wise philosopher king that has all of the answers as to how to make all of our lives better. Here he ,in his own words, describes some of what he believes in:
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-a-passionate-critic-of-market-fundamentalism
 
This episode reminded me of the podcast Sword & Scale and their coverage of the Franklin scandal and alleged activities at Bohemian Grove. It's a two part series and fair warning that you'll need your salt shaker when considering the allegations put forward on the BG story. Very disturbing if true. The Franklin cover-up is a horror story that shakes your faith in humanity. Stayed with me 5 years after these episodes aired. Haven't listened to the follow-up episodes but they are included on the pages of the links below for the curious and not so faint of heart.

Despite the content, S&S has some of the best production I've heard on a podcast.

Franklin Cover-up - Part 1
Franklin Cover-up and Bohemian Grove - Part 2
 
The term luciferian gets thrown around a lot when the elite is mentioned. Lucifer is rarely mentioned in the bible. St Jerome added lucifer, which was a mistranslation. Lucifer means light bringer, it has nothing to do with satan(Hebrew translation means adversary).
Jesus calls himself the morning star in revelations.

Thank you for mentioning this. It was grating on me a little in the episode when the terms were used interchangeably.
 
When I was growing up, I lived in a community and went to private school with "elites" - old blue bloods; names you'd recognize. I never saw any of this degeneracy. It was all Emily Post and WASP values.

I attended a Catholic boarding boarding school in the early 90s with the sons of diplomats and various important captains of industry from australasia, and saw no signs of the boarders being mistreated or any hint of inappropriate sexual activities from the priests and lay staff....and yet, 3 years ago I see in my Facebook feed that a lay teacher that was the head on my dorm, no less, was implicated in the molestation of 9 boys during my time there.

Not only do these things happen, but they happen under the noses of people who are just a little too smart and have a little too much hubris to think that if something was happening, then they would know about it.

I don't want to be too unkind, but your broader points seem to veer into the domain of self-deception on the scale of this problem.
 
Here's my problem. Sarah is promoting a grand conspiracy. These conspiracies lead to darker and darker places and go through a process where the masterminds become more and more evil and less and less human over time. Eventually they lead to non human entities being the bad guys. I don't know if Sarah is there yet but she seems to be at the place where she believes that the pedophilia is some sort of innate part of these bad guys.

She may couch it as "blackmail" but that is immaterial to her narrative. That's her way of getting the foot in the door of legitimacy. She starts off by saying it is a bunch of humans that prey on weakness and perhaps drug you and then blackmail you. She rolls out Jimmy Boots, the only person who will go on record, and uses him as the proof that it is everywhere in society. But that is just a setup.

Eventually you ask the right question and she comes out with what she really thinks (remember this is someone who has a Christian worldview and believes in Q) -- that it is secret society Luciferians or Satanists that not only exist in high echelons of society pulling the strings throughout the land, but that there are pockets on every street corner and block of cities, towns, and rural areas. And they are all in it together as a network and secret society. They have invaded your community. Even in small towns in Minnesota, population 3,000. According to Jimmy, especially Minnesota (he says because of Minnesota's PC culture).

Let me ask you all. Does anyone believe this? Because this is what she is saying. (FYI - This is almost exactly the same argument being made against evil Muslims that are taking over the land with Sharia Law. And funny, Minnesota because of the large Somali population and Ilhan Omar as congresswomen also show up a lot in this equation).

If we have reason to remain skeptical with what she is saying, then perhaps there is more than a little truth to Satanic Panic. That doesn't mean pedophilia isn't rampant among society, but it does mean that perhaps her version of it may in fact mostly be a fiction.
 
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Those "at the top" will inevitably be drawn further and further towards the extremes of culture, morality, spirituality and otherwise. They have the ability to more easily learn or at least begin to penetrate the secrets many of us can only dream of and they go for it.

This is an important consideration. Those who have the privilege to be free from the necessity of making a living can choose to invest their leisure in uplifting or degrading activities - to increase wealth for self-indulgence or for acts of service. And we know both happens.

Anyone with the misfortune to have free to air television infested with endless tales of the British royals knows that privilege and power are not necessarily ennobling - that the individuals born to such apparent good fortune are often witless and immoral. That means there are plenty of opportunities for such folk to indulge in the darker side of human potential. And because this usually means close proximity to power it also means that the culture of power in our countries is assuredly stained by moral compromise and corruption. The question is only about the extent.

I don't want to stir up a discussion of Trump, but the man is the exemplar of what happens when when we give credence to the witless culture of celebrity by being entertained by it. We tolerate misconduct when we should not. We allow lies to fly past us without remark because brainless egotism is part of being entertaining - and its the thin edge of the wedge.

I have just endured another month of garbage-brained political campaigning in an effort to induce this sorry nation to be passionate about selecting one of two lousy prospects for Prime Minister - Tweedledum or Tweedledee? Sadly, all we can muster is embarrassing mediocrity - nothing so spectacularly catastrophic as a Trump. We exported our only real villain to the US ages ago. Even he could not thrive in the insipid and tepid bilge water that passes for a political culture here.

Sorry, my point is that Trump should never have been given the oxygen of publicity that allowed him to craft an illusion of the magnitude he attained. Now we must wonder to what extent he is tainted by the poison Epstein has injected into the system. This spoilt rich kid could have been left to sink ignominiously into the debt his manifest incompetence should have promised - but for the fact that his hubris and delusions were considered entertaining. Now he is a festering and brooding global presence.

The US has a hero culture the rest of do not - and even so Trump was still allowed to say in public that he considered there fact that he survived the New York dating scene without getting a STD his "Vietnam" experience. Really? To an outsider the US seems so much like a culture that is royalist at heart - the way POTUS is treated is nothing short of a confused melange of royalist passion for a demi-god and a deeply secular sense of scapegoating and politicking. Really muddled up.

We are never going to handle moral corruption and debasement so long as we are induced to imagine that crass, coarse and degrading conduct is not only permissible among the 'elites' but is entertaining - as if it is an entry price to pay for the wealth and influence so many hopelessly aspire to. And of course, the fact that 'they' do it means my own minor 'sins' are justifiable or defensible.

The US is not the only nation with this problem. The degraded fantasy of class privilege in the UK fairly reeks of corruption through the class elites.

So many folk with so much opportunity to do decent things somehow manage to find raping children a preferable activity. Its a sad commentary on the human condition. It is sadder still that the community as a whole seems to enable it. We are seduced into thinking that privilege and power equals leadership - and who are we to demand better?
 
Thank you for mentioning this. It was grating on me a little in the episode when the terms were used interchangeably.

Lucifer has become a fiction that has taken on a dimension of its own. The name is mentioned once in Isaiah and referred to the planet Venus, which rises in the morning at certain of the year just before the sun - and hence is the light bringer - the herald. But Isaiah elects to see Venus as a contester in order to make a point in what was pretty much a typical of the intemperate ranting of that book. Venus is also known as the Morning Star and the Evening Star, but let us remember that it is also the planet of 'love'

The devil in European Christian culture is a fiction of misidentification - Lucifer, Satan, the serpent of Eden, the Greek Pan and any number of other 'pagan' entities. So now Lucifer has entered our culture as a literary figure also - a kind of modern myth - and maybe that fills a need for the characterisation of a 'fallen angel'.

We do have to be careful when we talk about Lucifer - if we care about making sense and saying stuff that is meaningful.
 
If we have reason to remain skeptical with what she is saying, then perhaps there is more than a little truth to Satanic Panic. That doesn't mean pedophilia isn't rampant among society, but it does mean that perhaps her version of it may in fact mostly be a fiction.

Once agains CS you are hitting the point here with lucid clarity. There was some kind of movement to promote 'safe' satanism that I looked into last year - some freaky unsavoury guy peddling pure BS of the kind that might rise with the publicity and then fade away to being sustained by a confused and deluded few.

There may be self-styled satanists who engage in abuse of children, and they may be of the privileged classes too. There may be young people for whom there is a transgressive thrill in dabbling in what is called 'satanism' - and this might be more widely spread now because of social media and the apparent willingness of some pop icons to exhibit a sympathy for it - or so has been alleged to me.

But none of this constitutes ground for any sense of panic when you place it in the perspective of the many other forms of transgression against the established norms - as any one who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s will tell. Ground for concern? Yes - especially where abusive and exploitative activity involving children and the vulnerable people is concerned.

For me it is unfortunate that many people engage in what they call research in ways that make it hard to validate their work. They often do not have the skills of trained journalists or researchers, so even if they make claims that are in fact based in truth, it is hard to be comfortable that this is the case.

I celebrate the rise of independent researchers, but they need to protect their reputations by having some kind of trustworthy mechanism to evaluate their work - the way proper professionals do.

The quickest way to degrade any cause is to create conspiracies theories that can be debunked and so throw doubt on the real stuff. That's dark PR spin 101. Its early days as the new media sorts itself out - so its vulnerable.

Are we dealing with a conspiracy theory booster of satanic panic here? I am leaning to yes, based on experience. But that does not mean there is nothing to it, and what there is to it should not be cause for grave concern. But, back to a previous point - if you are going to excite concern, do so with a coherent call to action. Activist investigators generally do have an idea about what they want us to do. Just putting the information 'out there' for others to decide what to do is risky without the professional framework to deliver actionable evidence. So if you want people to act on what you tell them you better be able to deliver some kind of credible evidence they can use.
 
I attended a Catholic boarding boarding school in the early 90s with the sons of diplomats and various important captains of industry from australasia, and saw no signs of the boarders being mistreated or any hint of inappropriate sexual activities from the priests and lay staff....and yet, 3 years ago I see in my Facebook feed that a lay teacher that was the head on my dorm, no less, was implicated in the molestation of 9 boys during my time there.

Not only do these things happen, but they happen under the noses of people who are just a little too smart and have a little too much hubris to think that if something was happening, then they would know about it.

I don't want to be too unkind, but your broader points seem to veer into the domain of self-deception on the scale of this problem.

Shape Thrower,
No hubris. I'm a little older than you are and you are talking about a time when the transition was happening that I mentioned. You're also talking about Catholics and a different country.

I live in a rural farming/working class town now. Child molesters get arrested and that story makes it into the local news all too frequently. Where I grew up I never heard about it; not in the news and not in rumor or gossip (which I do where I live now).
 
Here's my problem. Sarah is promoting a grand conspiracy. These conspiracies lead to darker and darker places and go through a process where the masterminds become more and more evil and less and less human over time. Eventually they lead to non human entities being the bad guys. I don't know if Sarah is there yet but she seems to be at the place where she believes that the pedophilia is some sort of innate part of these bad guys.

She may couch it as "blackmail" but that is immaterial to her narrative. That's her way of getting the foot in the door of legitimacy. She starts off by saying it is a bunch of humans that prey on weakness and perhaps drug you and then blackmail you. She rolls out Jimmy Boots, the only person who will go on record, and uses him as the proof that it is everywhere in society. But that is just a setup.

Eventually you ask the right question and she comes out with what she really thinks (remember this is someone who has a Christian worldview and believes in Q) -- that it is secret society Luciferians or Satanists that not only exist in high echelons of society pulling the strings throughout the land, but that there are pockets on every street corner and block of cities, towns, and rural areas. And they are all in it together as a network and secret society. They have invaded your community. Even in small towns in Minnesota, population 3,000. According to Jimmy, especially Minnesota (he says because of Minnesota's PC culture).

Let me ask you all. Does anyone believe this? Because this is what she is saying. (FYI - This is almost exactly the same argument being made against evil Muslims that are taking over the land with Sharia Law. And funny, Minnesota because of the large Somali population and Ilhan Omar as congresswomen also show up a lot in this equation).

If we have reason to remain skeptical with what she is saying, then perhaps there is more than a little truth to Satanic Panic. That doesn't mean pedophilia isn't rampant among society, but it does mean that perhaps her version of it may in fact mostly be a fiction.


I do not believe the conspiracy theory and I think most of the conspiracy theories that we hear are stupid garbage for the reasons you and Michael Patterson mention.

I do think Islam/Sharia is a potential problem because, unlike the alleged Satanism, Islam really exists on a large scale, really is organized, really does have a feature called "sharia" and has a doctrinal and historic record of seeking to expand and convert the people of the territories it has expanded into. Satanic conspiracies and Islam/Sharia are categorically totally different things.
 
Here's my problem. Sarah is promoting a grand conspiracy. These conspiracies lead to darker and darker places and go through a process where the masterminds become more and more evil and less and less human over time. Eventually they lead to non human entities being the bad guys. I don't know if Sarah is there yet but she seems to be at the place where she believes that the pedophilia is some sort of innate part of these bad guys.

She may couch it as "blackmail" but that is immaterial to her narrative. That's her way of getting the foot in the door of legitimacy. She starts off by saying it is a bunch of humans that prey on weakness and perhaps drug you and then blackmail you. She rolls out Jimmy Boots, the only person who will go on record, and uses him as the proof that it is everywhere in society. But that is just a setup.

Eventually you ask the right question and she comes out with what she really thinks (remember this is someone who has a Christian worldview and believes in Q) -- that it is secret society Luciferians or Satanists that not only exist in high echelons of society pulling the strings throughout the land, but that there are pockets on every street corner and block of cities, towns, and rural areas. And they are all in it together as a network and secret society. They have invaded your community. Even in small towns in Minnesota, population 3,000. According to Jimmy, especially Minnesota (he says because of Minnesota's PC culture).

Let me ask you all. Does anyone believe this? Because this is what she is saying. (FYI - This is almost exactly the same argument being made against evil Muslims that are taking over the land with Sharia Law. And funny, Minnesota because of the large Somali population and Ilhan Omar as congresswomen also show up a lot in this equation).

If we have reason to remain skeptical with what she is saying, then perhaps there is more than a little truth to Satanic Panic. That doesn't mean pedophilia isn't rampant among society, but it does mean that perhaps her version of it may in fact mostly be a fiction.

You remind me of the people that are connected to Hoaxtead Research, yet you are better informed them a majority of them, IMO. As a researcher into what you call "satanic panic" did you know Dave McGowan was an atheist? There are people that believe that ritual abuse exists that have nothing to do with Christianity, it has existed since the dawn of time. Even C W Chanter who pushes your "satanic panic" narrative admits there is a word for abuse, torture, etc. in every language and culture. I wont go with Moloch, because of muh bible with you, so I will mention the sacrifice of virgin children and young adults throughout ancient native history. The rampant human sacrifice of the Mayans and Aztec's and even some North American native tribes. It was so rampant for the Aztec's that systematic cultural sponsored cannibalism was occurring as a source of the nations food. Ritual sexual abuse, sacrifice, and cannibalism was a big part of these cultures, the elite were more steeped in it than the citizens, the priest class as you will. What about the pedophilic culture that was practiced by the Greeks, Romans, and the Japanese (samurai)? This culture was sanctioned by governments not so much religion. What about the pedophilia that is/was rampant in Buddhism? What about it being rampant in Jewish, Muslim, and Christian institutions? It is not the average practitioner or member most of the time of these societies or religions where it happens on such a grand scale. It was/is the priest class, the elite, time and time again. It isn't my neighbor down the street that goes to Catholic mass. I guess our institutions are more enlightened now huh?

I do agree that most researchers make grandiose claims about how rampant ritual abuse is. For example they still push debunked narratives like adrenochrome. The narrative that it is happening on every single street corner, on every square inch of the globe. However, most people like you downplay it to the point of non existence. Ask yourself this, did day care and child care molestation's stop happening after the early 1990's (at the very least in most of those "satanic panic" cases molestation's occurred, read The Witch Hunt Narrative By: Ross E. Cheit for context and proof) or are they not widespread reported now because they are labeled as "satanic panic." It is more nefarious than you think. When you look over the evidence provided for the "satanic panic" cases, most seem like at the bare minimum molestation's were rampant and are probably rampant to this day. Is it ritual, part of some grand conspiracy, signs lead to yes for me. However, not in every case or everywhere, it is statistically impossible. There are also potentially false claims and false narratives that are put out to muddy the waters for people like me that try to research as much as I can.

So let us go over the big cases and Ill put what I believe, I want to know what you believe as well:

McMartin: I believe it was likely that ritual abuse was occurring, however, at the bare minimum children were allegedly molested by Ray Ray Buckey.
Franklin: Ritual systematic abuse, pornography distribution, and trafficking was occurring.
The Finders (my case btw): systematic trafficking was occurring, likely ritual abuse was occurring.
Glendale: Sexual abuse and distribution of child pornography was occurring.
West point: Ritual systematic abuse was occurring.
Presidio day care: Ritual systematic abuse was occurring.
Little Rascals - Ritual systematic abuse was likely occurring, at the bare minimum molestation's occurred.
Country Walk - Molestation's occurred.
Jonbenet Ramsey - Ritual systematic abuse and pornography distribution occurred.
West Memphis Three: Likely guilty, also likely not part of a grand conspiracy, but local.
Dutroux affair: Ritual systematic abuse, pornography distribution, and trafficking was occurring.
Hampstead: I am agnostic towards the claims, not enough information.
Epstein: Sexual abuse and trafficking were/are occurring. Unknown if ritual.
Pizzagate: Ritual sexual abuse was possibly occurring, to what extent is unknown. There is some disinfo however, Dupuytren's contracture surgery was why Podesta had scars on his hands, walnut sauce is a real pasta sauce and not adrenochrome. Pizzagate is weaker when compared to other cases, IMO.
 
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I don't know what you Americans know about Dr Phil, he looks somewhat of a 'sensationalist' (maybe lurid storyteller?) but his guest Kendall convinced me of the truth of her testimony. It would be an elaborate hoax if not, and to what end? Maybe allegations of 'satanic panic' is another layer of disinformation to deflect observation of actual events?

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I'm an artist and have lost all respect for Marina Abramovic. What (tf) is going on here? I never liked Lady Gaga, especially since she was one of the first to perform in Israel after that govt's sustained attack on Palestinians in 2014, but that's another story
 
You remind me of the people that are connected to Hoaxtead Research, yet you are better informed them a majority of them, IMO. As a researcher into what you call "satanic panic" did you know Dave McGowan was an atheist? There are people that believe that ritual abuse exists that have nothing to do with Christianity, it has existed since the dawn of time. Even C W Chanter who pushes your "satanic panic" narrative admits there is a word for abuse, torture, etc. in every language and culture. I wont go with Moloch, because of muh bible with you, so I will mention the sacrifice of virgin children and young adults throughout ancient native history. The rampant human sacrifice of the Mayans and Aztec's and even some North American native tribes. It was so rampant for the Aztec's that systematic cultural sponsored cannibalism was occurring as a source of the nations food. Ritual sexual abuse, sacrifice, and cannibalism was a big part of these cultures, the elite were more steeped in it than the citizens, the priest class as you will. What about the pedophilic culture that was practiced by the Greeks, Romans, and the Japanese (samurai)? This culture was sanctioned by governments not so much religion. What about the pedophilia that is/was rampant in Buddhism? What about it being rampant in Jewish, Muslim, and Christian institutions? It is not the average practitioner or member most of the time of these societies or religions where it happens on such a grand scale. It was/is the priest class, the elite, time and time again. It isn't my neighbor down the street that goes to Catholic mass. I guess our institutions are more enlightened now huh?

I do agree that most researchers make grandiose claims about how rampant ritual abuse is. For example they still push debunked narratives like adrenochrome. The narrative that it is happening on every single street corner, on every square inch of the globe. However, most people like you downplay it to the point of non existence. Ask yourself this, did day care and child care molestation's stop happening after the early 1990's (at the very least in most of those "satanic panic" cases molestation's occurred, read The Witch Hunt Narrative By: Ross E. Cheit for context and proof) or are they not widespread reported now because they are labeled as "satanic panic." It is more nefarious than you think. When you look over the evidence provided for the "satanic panic" cases, most seem like at the bare minimum molestation's were rampant and are probably rampant to this day. Is it ritual, part of some grand conspiracy, signs lead to yes for me. However, not in every case or everywhere, it is statistically impossible. There are also potentially false claims and false narratives that are put out to muddy the waters for people like me that try to research as much as I can.

So let us go over the big cases and Ill put what I believe, I want to know what you believe as well:

McMartin: I believe it was likely that ritual abuse was occurring, however, at the bare minimum children were allegedly molested by Ray Ray Buckey.
Franklin: Ritual systematic abuse, pornography distribution, and trafficking was occurring.
The Finders (my case btw): systematic trafficking was occurring, likely ritual abuse was occurring.
Glendale: Sexual abuse and distribution of child pornography was occurring.
West point: Ritual systematic abuse was occurring.
Presidio day care: Ritual systematic abuse was occurring.
Little Rascals - Ritual systematic abuse was likely occurring, at the bare minimum molestation's occurred.
Country Walk - Molestation's occurred.
Jonbenet Ramsey - Ritual systematic abuse and pornography distribution occurred.
West Memphis Three: Likely guilty, also likely not part of a grand conspiracy, but local.
Dutroux affair: Ritual systematic abuse, pornography distribution, and trafficking was occurring.
Hampstead: I am agnostic towards the claims, not enough information.
Epstein: Sexual abuse and trafficking were/are occurring. Unknown if ritual.
Pizzagate: Ritual sexual abuse was possibly occurring, to what extent is unknown. There is some disinfo however, Dupuytren's contracture surgery was why Podesta had scars on his hands, walnut sauce is a real pasta sauce and not adrenochrome. Pizzagate is weaker when compared to other cases, IMO.

There is almost ritualistic sexual abuse that occurs in the US prison system (prisoner on prisoner).

As I keep saying, human personalities/archetypes and their proclivities have been around for ever. Humans have not changed one iota over millennia as far as I can see. There have always been certain types that want to dominate others sexually. Some of those focus on children. Take a random sample of the population of sufficient size, and you will consistently find child molesters amongst them.

To prove a conspiracy you would have to demonstrate that child molesters are significantly overly represented in government or other "elite" circles (however you define that). I am not aware of any research that suggest the over-representation. I'm not even sure how such research could be performed. It's not like people are willing to admit on a questionnaire that they molest children.

It is an axiom of capitalism - and indeed human nature, which capitalism reflects - that when there is a demand, there will be a supply at a price that is based on investment and risk. Therefore, there are child sex trafficking rings. Again, that does not prove any conspiracy. Just people being people.

Has anyone ever been blackmailed over their discovered involvement in child sex? I have no doubt. Blackmail is another good old fashioned human behavior. It more people being people and doesn't prove some vast conspiracy.
 
It more people being people and doesn't prove some vast conspiracy.
Maybe Sarah is trying to point towards some vast conspiracy, but I think more likely she is trying to point towards "people being people" as you put it is much more common than the mainstream media and majority of people are willing to admit.

I definitely don't think anyone on this thread is trying to point to a vast conspiracy. The most outspoken poster on the opposite side of this "argument" from you, John, has pointed towards specific cases in isolation and has made no claims of connection between them.

Should we not be concerned with trying to shine light on atrocities because they are just part and parcel to humanity?
 
So many folk with so much opportunity to do decent things somehow manage to find raping children a preferable activity. Its a sad commentary on the human condition. It is sadder still that the community as a whole seems to enable it. We are seduced into thinking that privilege and power equals leadership - and who are we to demand better?
No one should be exempt from critical public evaluation of their behaviour as it affects others, the (corrupted) rich and powerful more so. The mass-media lure of elitist extravagance and superficial 'beauty' is a tragic comment on where (we're told) our admiration lies.
 
that it is secret society Luciferians or Satanists that not only exist in high echelons of society pulling the strings throughout the land, but that there are pockets on every street corner and block of cities, towns, and rural areas. And they are all in it together as a network and secret society. They have invaded your community. Even in small towns in Minnesota, population 3,000. According to Jimmy, especially Minnesota (he says because of Minnesota's PC culture).

Let me ask you all. Does anyone believe this? .

Maybe not when stated that strongly, but I don't dismiss the possibility of networks of child/ritual abusers involving those from all strata of society.

Personal anecdote warning:
- A close friend of my mother's was raised by parents who were members of some sort of cult which employed ritual child abuse. She told her teachers about the abuse and her parents in turn killed her dog in front of her to warn her off from ever mentioning it again - telling her she would be next. As we hear in many of these cases - the members of the cult ranged from gas station clerks, to policemen, to doctors, teachers, local politicians.

- When I first became concerned about these topics and was going through something of an existential crisis, my dentist who I am very open/close with informed me that he once had to harbor (as part of his duties towards some clandestine organization he is a member of) a woman who was running for a similar cult in which she had been forced to have her father's child which was subsequently murdered upon an altar in front of her. Similar story about membership of the cult.

Just anecdotes - but it was enough for me in combination with all of the other stories out there that I cannot totally dismiss the possibility of a larger network of abusive cults like these which include people from all levels of society. How they are controlled and who by, no idea!
 
John Brisson -- First off, I enjoy your work, both for nutrition and for your take on those pulling the US foreign policy strings.

"McGowan was an atheist." Yes, but as I stated in a previous post, "welcome to America." In other words, you can be an atheist all day long, but if you and your ancestors are steeped in American culture, you are by default a Christian in many ways without knowing it. It still permeates and makes up much of your worldview whether you wish it to or not. I'm sure there are exceptions, and McGowan may be one such person. I don't know but based on interviews I have heard I assumed he was Christian. And the point in bringing up Christianity is not to belittle it but to simply say that many people within that faith, or without it but with that worldview, may be interpreting the facts and circumstantial evidence much differently than let's say I would. Other monotheistic faiths may have a similar issue. I don't know but suspect this may be true. But this is America and Christianity is the dominant worldview and theistic religion of this country (though civic religions like Progress and American Exceptionalism give it a run for its money).

And yes many cultures have sacrificed individuals in their worship. That is true. But often times this was done when a culture was struck with high levels of anxiety and at least subconsciously knew that they were "on their way down" towards some sort of collapse. Now, there are exceptions, of course, but those that used sacrifice in high numbers were usually those that were not going to last much longer. Once again, this ties into the economic and lifestyle insecurity of the times. And sometimes abuse can become cultural. I agree. But I see this far less in today's day and age. I don't wish to get into the weeds of older civilizations and cultures right now and admit to knowing less about this than you do.

IBut I have looked at many of the high profile cases you mention of modern day times. I HIGHLY disagree with the West Memphis case. To me, that case was straight up Satanic Panic. I have looked at all of the evidence, even the stuff that was supposedly kept from the public by the defense. To me, that is the watershed case. If you believe that case, you will believe any case. That has been my opinion for quite some time. I have researched it in many different headspaces (including once when I was all in on Franklin) and always come to the conclusion it utter bullshit and was mostly likely the father/stepfather that left town). FYI - A very close friend of mine tried to get Damien Echols on Higherside but I think Greg knows it would piss off half of his listenership.

I also disagree with Franklin as well. I think the books/investigations that were written linking it to a ritualized conspiracy of abuse are really awful when you break down the facts. I have troubles finding credulity in most of the witnesses involving the ritualized aspects. I was once a believer but not so much anymore. Did abuse take place at Boystown? It's Catholic, right? Was it covered up on numerous occasions? Yeah. I think there was perhaps enough of a scandal where it is possible that boys were taken from the place and raped. But the ritualized aspect, I don't see.

I'm also not sold on McMartin, despite the supposed "tunnel" that was found later allegedly substantiating some of the kids' claims. Pizzagate has no proof at all and it depends on some half-assed research about Podesta himself. Could he be a pedophile? Maybe. I don't know if those emails indicate as much. They might. He did cohort with some questionable people but so do all the major political and financial players in this country.

The best case is Finders. The residue of cult and MKUltra is all over this one, but of course the investigation was shut down for national security reasons. But this may have simply been some brainwashed MKUltra Cult (or just a crazy cult) that was weaponized for intelligence purposes, perhaps for exploring the psyche, etc. But that case does not mean the phenomenon was in every community in America. It simply means the US gov't was doing fucked up shady shit that we all know they do.

But here is the point. The satanic panic in the 80s and 90s was mostly about pre-schools and computer classes and church groups and places where kids congregated. It was about normal America. Satan is everywhere -- even your own block. Since that time, there has been a liberalization of culture in this country (gay rights and marriage, hate crime laws, hiring practice laws, sexual harassment laws, transgender laws and bathrooms etc.). A lot of people equate this (and abortion) to the moral degeneracy of the Left or sometimes "establishment" politics. So the big shift with satanic panic has gone from places where kids congregate to highly elaborate ratlines that service mostly the Democratic Party and their degeneracy. Sometimes people will say they don't believe in the Right/Left paradigm but then you see who they accuse and it is almost always high-level Democrats and Hollywood, the biggest symbol of the Left. (And they always say that all kinds of arrest warrants are just waiting for the president's word).

I have my own unprovable conspiracy theory. I think mostly it is an intentional psyops by right-wing operatives to win over malleable (angry, but disarmed) voters into the Republican fold. Q is part of this narrative.

Now, are there exceptions to all I have stated above? Yes. Do I understate things? Probably, Yes. But too often we connect dots that really are not there. We take one case, or a even a few with circumstantial evidence and make broad statements. We take strange cases that don't really add up and say "see, see, I told you that the elite are all a bunch of pedophiles. I told you that St. Joseph, Minnesota has a pedophile cult."

Remember, this whole conversation is because of an interview that Alex had of a lady who investigated the Wetterling case, and since then, now believes that there is ONE giant pedophile cult that performs ritual magic and believes that Satan/Lucifer worshipper have so much power that they can stop any investigation in this country. When people head down this massive pedophile cult rabbit hole, they ALL end up where Sarah Westall stands. And they all end up Hailing Q and his poison BBQ (or if not Q, at least some kind of quasi human race that rules humanity). It can be the only logical conclusion with this worldview. So, I will remain skeptical because of people like her. And in all honesty, people like her can become extremely dangerous if they rile up a community or provide unsubstantiated claims or evidence to the mix.

But mostly I am pissed at Alex because he let someone get away with claiming that the abuse was about blackmail, but then later said that the abuse is really just about Luciferian worship. Now, I suppose both can be true, but the root cause is Luciferianism according to her. I wish Alex would get a little more Skeptiko on this issue. P.S. I had never heard of Hoaxstead before and had to look it up.
 
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Humans have not changed one iota over millennia
Define 'millennia'. I'd say people were changed by the imposition of a neurotically sexually-repressive 'conspiracy' (and they're not all theories) since (they call him a saint) Augustine arrived on british shores in AD 500. It took another 500yrs to convince the residents that they better go with (Catholic) Christianity. Their methods of persuasion were insane and very sick.
 
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