David Sunfellow, Can the Scientific Study of NDEs Reveal the Purpose of Life? |413|

I see where you’re coming from, that some ideas here may be offensive to people, however I think that we can’t allow that possibility to self-censor our posts. This forum is a place where all ideas should be allowed free reign imo
Completely agree. I am not advocating self-censorship - only sensitivity in conveying thoughts so that they are not misunderstood. While David acknowledged some may struggle with the idea he put, I was observing that that acknowledgement may not have been sufficient to meet his intended purpose., since nothing about his character suggested to me any hint of intentional insensitivity.
 
Michael, I appreciate your input although I see things somewhat differently from you - you see this stuff as being some kind of expression of love and attention. Well, what do I know. Stalkers say (and probably believe) that they love the people they are pestering :) Jokes apart, I would much prefer us to experience a different way of love (if this is love) from these "metaphysical sources", where the "lovers" express their feelings in a way that we can relate to and benefit from. Being loved in a mysterious, incomprehensible, confusing way is not the kind of love I'd like to receive. I mean, it may be fun (although as I said some syncs are spooky and downright alarming), but at the end of the day, I would prefer (and this is my wish for all sentient beings) to be on the receiving end of a kind of love which expresses itself in a sincere, open and down-to-earth way. All this mystery we were thrown into and are struggling with does not suggest to me that what lies behind the Veil is something we would like and approve of. When things are kept hidden it is because they're 'something wrong' with them.
I continue to think that "this is not about us". We are tiny cogs in a bizarre mechanism which serves a purpose that is not about us. Frankly, my best hope is that there are agencies that feel pity for us and are doing something to help.

Wow! First up this was a great post to the very end. There are so many ideas that are evocative and provocative, all worthy of reflection and comment.

Being loved in a mysterious, incomprehensible, confusing way is not the kind of love I'd like to receive. I get this. That's how I felt for years. I know that for some (me included) the love we get from parents can challenge us because they express their love for us imperfectly. That kind of love can injure us - unintentionally. I was badly screwed up by my parent's love for me.

But this mysterious stuff is different. I am not a child, but an adult seeking insight and some kind of spiritual harmony. I am also demanding and probably kind of stupid too. I came out of quite a few years of radical 'woo' experiences pretty beaten up, emotionally exhausted, and I certainly did not feel loved - far from it. I felt assailed. Decades later I see that time differently. In shamanic tradition there is the idea of breaking a person and reassembling them.

There's a saying - those whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad. But I know that in a different sense - those who the Gods would raise up they first make mad. The first saying has never made any sense to me. The second does. Not only does it mirror the shamanic lore, it reflects many disciplines and traditions of access to sacred lore.

So its not tender love. Its the love of spirit for who seek to know it deeper. That's a tough love.

When things are kept hidden it is because they're 'something wrong' with them. Sometimes this is true. But sometimes the secret thing is dangerous by its own nature. A medicine can be beneficial when taken as directed. but toxic otherwise.So it is better hidden from those who do not know the difference. An idea may be dangerous if encountered by an unprepared mind. But that could be a long philosophical and moral debate.

The sources that drive the 11:11 stuff may be of a nature that does not support simple disclosure. Sometimes we have to work to get ourselves to a point where we have matured sufficiently to make knowing the source is a safe proposition. You only have to look at the ET Disclosure debate to see that there are many different levels of engagement with the idea - and different interpretations and expectations leading to wildly different responses.

I would prefer (and this is my wish for all sentient beings) to be on the receiving end of a kind of love which expresses itself in a sincere, open and down-to-earth way. But would that love be received as it is intended? The mystification is a two way exchange.
 
Can you recall the name of a woman who remembered a geometric pattern from her nde and then had a paper published in a journal of mathematics with herself as a co-author?

I believe you are referring to Lynnclaire Dennis.


Lynnclaire Dennis' Near-Death Experience

The Science of Life Discovered From Lynnclaire Dennis' NDE

The Mereon Legacy

You asked:

"Or in general what is an example of scientific knowledge, if any, that has been returned?"

Scientific Discoveries Come From Near-Death Experiences

Go here and do a search for "science"

You may also want to check out the work of Walter Russell who had a spiritually transformative experience that produced a comprehensive scientific overview of how the universe works. He published his discoveries in a book called The Universal One.

Walter Russell

The University of Science & Philosophy

The Universal One

41z3rnTv-6L.jpg

You asked:

"Do you think Raymond Moody's analysis is interesting with his use of logic and nonsense?"

Yes.



You comment:

"Their are a lot of reasons to take nde's seriously but not literally. We don't understand."

I would say that while the depth and breadth of NDEs far exceeds normal human understanding, there is also a lot of information given to us through NDEs that we can understand that can be applied to our daily lives with dramatic results.
 
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so david, I don't want to keep pounding on the christian thing, but of course I'm going to :) I mean how do you square this with your "primacy of christianity" thing... i.e. "Jesus is just a teeny tiny bit more special than those other guys/gals."

The first thing I do is separate Jesus from Christianity. What Jesus actually said and did and what Christianity (mainstream, dogmatic, uninformed Christianity) has done with that, are two different things.

Then I look at the evidence. Is there any EVIDENCE that suggests 1. That Jesus actually lived; 2. That there is anything that distinguishes him from all the other religious figures that humankind has produced?

When I look at THE EVIDENCE -- and that includes historical evidence (1. The Shroud of Turin, 2. The Apostle Paul, 3. The Sayings Gospel Q), the remarkable parallels that can be found when you compare the core messages of near-death experiences with the central messages of his life and teachings, and the dramatic physical and visionary experiences that include him all over the world -- Jesus emerges as something special. If we search human history for a human being that embodies the core qualities of The Light that appears in so many NDEs, I've come to believe that Jesus emerges as the most full-blown embodiment of that Light. I could be wrong about this, and I am willing to change this view if the evidence leads me elsewhere...
 
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I can't speak for fundamentalist Christians (and wouldn't want to), but speaking from a near-death experience perspective, the reason Jesus is such a big deal is: 1. He appears in some of the most well-known and influential near-death experiences (including the one that launched the modern day near-death experience movement -- the NDE of Dr. George Ritchie), 2. The core life and teachings of Jesus echo the universal truths championed by near-death experiences more clearly than any other historical religious figure I am aware of; 3. Jesus, hands down, appears in far more NDEs than any other religious figure. See these links for more details:

Jesus, Near-Death Experiences, and Religion

Religious Figures In NDEs, Especially Jesus & Muhammad

Bottom line: Setting aside the dark, shallow, uninformed, uninspired, and grievously misaligned history of Christianity that took root after Jesus left, there is, I think, something about Jesus (and his life and teachings) that deserves special attention. And special respect. I also think we should be careful to separate Christianity from Jesus, especially the kind of Christianity that was/is promoted by Rome and Christian fundamentalists.

Hi David,
My own view on this is that first we need to get past the idea that humanity is a conglomeration of 9 billion or so lumps of flesh lumbering about and bumping into each other on planet earth. Rather, humanity, like all things, is first and foremost, a field of energetic and perceptual potentials that exists in Mind. This is closer to Sheldrake's morphic fields concept, but with more emphasis on mental and spiritual aspects than Sheldrake addresses.

Christ represents one of the combinations of potentials that humans can focus on and work to achieve. I believe there actually was a man who achieved oneness with these specific potentials and then preached the message of that possibility to others.

We must understand how brutal life was back then and how cruel humanity was to itself; not that we aren't still pretty rough on each other today - just back then it wasn't even understood that there is an alternative way. Christ - "the word" - was truly revolutionary and we have been enjoying the benefits of the revolution ever since.

IMO, Satan represents another cluster of perceptual potentials within the larger human field and Hell is energetic realm formed when the mind(s) focuses on those aspects of the larger human field of potentials.

Both Christ and Satan/heaven and hell are absolutely real; as are many of the Hindu gods, etc. They are only not real when one falls back into thinking like a materialist (lumps of flesh first and foremost, an objective world of facts, etc). When that happens, then we get stuck into endless arguments and confusion about conflicting "data" and what is "real" and "not real".

Really enjoyed the interview and I think you are making great contributions to the body of knowledge. Thank you.
 
I believe you are referring to Lynnclaire Dennis.


Lynnclaire Dennis' Near-Death Experience

The Science of Life Discovered From Lynnclaire Dennis' NDE

The Mereon Legacy

You asked:

"Or in general what is an example of scientific knowledge, if any, that has been returned?"

Scientific Discoveries Come From Near-Death Experiences

Go here and do a search for "science"

You may also want to check out the work of Walter Russell who had a spiritually transformative experience that produced a comprehensive scientific overview of how the universe works. He published his discoveries in a book called The Universal One.

Walter Russell

The University of Science & Philosophy

The Universal One

View attachment 1194

You asked:

"Do you think Raymond Moody's analysis is interesting with his use of logic and nonsense?"

Yes.



You comment:

"Their are a lot of reasons to take nde's seriously but not literally. We don't understand."

I would say that while the depth and breadth of NDEs far exceeds normal human understanding, there is also a lot of information given to us through NDEs that we can understand that can be applied to our daily lives with dramatic results.
Thank you. I will inquire more.

I really enjoy the work of Edward close and Vernon Neppe. I mention them in the hope its something new to you.

https://web.archive.org/web/2019060...5/belief-and-reality-meaning-and-purpose.html

While unpublished, I did verify to my own satisfaction Edward has proven fermat's last theorem decades before its formal recognition and furthermore, doing it using very simple techniques!!! He is extremely creative.

I am beginning to see a pattern of what connection to "god" means.

Bruce Damer is a good example of what I mean.


In short, how can our tiny little brains be connected to god? Its not analytical since we cannot understand, but emotions are more direct. The heart leads the intellect. I know now this is a path to success.
 
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I really enjoy the work of Edward close and Vernon Neppe. I mention them in the hope its something new to you.

I'll check this out. I forgot to mention Emanuel Swedenborg, one of the all-time greats!


All About Emanuel Swedenborg

Emanuel Swedenborg (1688 – 1772) was a Swedish scientist, philosopher, theologian, revelator, and Christian mystic. He is best known for his book on the afterlife, Heaven and Hell (1758). Swedenborg had a prolific career as an inventor and scientist. In 1741, at the age of 53, he entered into a spiritual phase in which he began to experience dreams and visions, beginning on Easter weekend of April 6, 1744. This culminated in a “spiritual awakening,” in which he received revelation that he was appointed by the Lord to write a heavenly New Church Doctrine to reform Christianity. According to the New Church Doctrine the Lord had opened Swedenborg’s spiritual eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell, and talk with angels, demons and other spirits. Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences lasted for 29 years until his death at age 84. Along with his remarkable spiritual and scientific accomplishments, Swedenborg is considered to be one of the most intelligent human beings to ever live.

………………..

“The most remarkable step in the religious history of recent ages is that made by the genius of Swedenborg.”

— Ralph Waldo Emerson

“I admire Swedenborg as a great scientist and a great mystic at the same time. His life and work have always been of great interest to me.”

— Carl Jung, Psychologist

“For you Westerners, it is Swedenborg who is your Buddha, it is he who should be read and followed!”

— D. T. Suzuki, Zen Buddhist Scholar

“The correlations between what Swedenborg writes of some of his spiritual experiences and what those who have come back from close calls with death report is amazing.”

— Raymond Moody, author of Life After Life

“People who have had near-death experiences peek through the door of the after-life, but Swedenborg explored the whole house.”

— Kenneth Ring, NDE Researcher and co-founder of International Association for Near Death Studies, Inc. (IANDS)

“Let me explain why Swedenborg merits scrutiny. It is a fact that the greatest poets and prose writers have borrowed liberally from him. The list is long: first Blake, as his direct spiritual descendant; then Goethe, a fervent reader of Swedenborg (as was Kant followed by Edgar Allan Poe, Baudelaire, Balzac, Mickiewicz, Slowacki, Emerson, Dostoevsky….)”

— Czeslaw Milosz, 1980 Nobel Prize, Literature

“Swedenborg’s message has meant so much to me! It has given color and reality and unity to my thought of the life to come; it has exalted my ideas of love, truth, and usefulness; it has been my strongest incitement to overcome limitations.”

— Helen Keller

………………..

In short, how can our tiny little brains be connected to god? Its not analytical since we cannot understand, but emotions are more direct. The heart leads the intellect. I know now this is a path to success.

The simple answer, of course, is through learning how to love. But as near-death experiencer Howard Storm so elegantly notes: "Loving people sounds so simple but it’s very difficult…"
 
I think that when we have NDEs wherein a Christian goes to hell or an atheist goes to something wonderful, it is simply a matter of what the individual was actually aligning with as opposed to, superficially, what they claimed to be aligned with. I know regular church goers who are horribly judgmental, dour and frequently engage in mean gossip as a pastime. I know non-believers of various stripes that are kind and fun people.

Yes. Absolutely. This is a very important point. Near-death experiences are full of accounts that talk about vibration. Vibration. Vibration. Vibration. We end up in the places and states of consciousness that match our vibrations. And, more to the point, our overall vibration is not always apparent in this world. As you noted, people who are very beautiful on the outside can be very ugly on the inside. And, of course, we are all taught from birth to be habitual liars in this world. In a world where everyone is taught from birth that you are what you pretend to be, it comes as a real surprise that the afterlife plays by different rules: you are what you really are, not what you pretend to be, or wish you were. And, of course, we're not just our tiny egos and personalities. We also have to take into consideration the deeper parts of ourselves and our souls that are not visible.
 
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I'll check this out. I forgot to mention Emanuel Swedenborg, one of the all-time greats!


All About Emanuel Swedenborg

Emanuel Swedenborg (1688 – 1772) was a Swedish scientist, philosopher, theologian, revelator, and Christian mystic. He is best known for his book on the afterlife, Heaven and Hell (1758). Swedenborg had a prolific career as an inventor and scientist. In 1741, at the age of 53, he entered into a spiritual phase in which he began to experience dreams and visions, beginning on Easter weekend of April 6, 1744. This culminated in a “spiritual awakening,” in which he received revelation that he was appointed by the Lord to write a heavenly New Church Doctrine to reform Christianity. According to the New Church Doctrine the Lord had opened Swedenborg’s spiritual eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell, and talk with angels, demons and other spirits. Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences lasted for 29 years until his death at age 84. Along with his remarkable spiritual and scientific accomplishments, Swedenborg is considered to be one of the most intelligent human beings to ever live.

………………..

“The most remarkable step in the religious history of recent ages is that made by the genius of Swedenborg.”

— Ralph Waldo Emerson

“I admire Swedenborg as a great scientist and a great mystic at the same time. His life and work have always been of great interest to me.”

— Carl Jung, Psychologist

“For you Westerners, it is Swedenborg who is your Buddha, it is he who should be read and followed!”

— D. T. Suzuki, Zen Buddhist Scholar

“The correlations between what Swedenborg writes of some of his spiritual experiences and what those who have come back from close calls with death report is amazing.”

— Raymond Moody, author of Life After Life

“People who have had near-death experiences peek through the door of the after-life, but Swedenborg explored the whole house.”

— Kenneth Ring, NDE Researcher and co-founder of International Association for Near Death Studies, Inc. (IANDS)

“Let me explain why Swedenborg merits scrutiny. It is a fact that the greatest poets and prose writers have borrowed liberally from him. The list is long: first Blake, as his direct spiritual descendant; then Goethe, a fervent reader of Swedenborg (as was Kant followed by Edgar Allan Poe, Baudelaire, Balzac, Mickiewicz, Slowacki, Emerson, Dostoevsky….)”

— Czeslaw Milosz, 1980 Nobel Prize, Literature

“Swedenborg’s message has meant so much to me! It has given color and reality and unity to my thought of the life to come; it has exalted my ideas of love, truth, and usefulness; it has been my strongest incitement to overcome limitations.”

— Helen Keller

………………..



The simple answer, of course, is through learning how to love. But as near-death experiencer Howard Storm so elegantly notes: "Loving people sounds so simple but it’s very difficult…"
Swedenborge is interesting, but experience itself is hard to verify -- hence my name.


But what if memory of experience was stored in DNA? Isn't that hypothesis consistent with the brain being 'off' during cardiac based NDE's? But DNA somehow gets written....if I am right.

Then changes to our DNA after NDE or alien contact would be expressed within our dna. This seems testable! Unlike Swedenborg's wisdom. Well, accept his wisdom may be written into his dna too. Furthermore it being written "magickally" is consistent with NDe's during other non life threatening events.
 
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I’m not rejecting David’s ideas about our reality being planned and perfect like some people feel it is in NDE’s , or LOA, or the idea of co-creation, from ignorance about them or a lack of exploration of them.
I’m rejecting them because
I used to follow these ideas and they ruined my life.
They take the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life, our experiences and the experiences of those around us.

I've had similar experience. The ideas gave me the sense that I knew the game and made me in sense smugly disconnected from it. I don't think you can strive to love humanity as a whole, and all strangers as if they were your brothers. I do believe you can attain a state where that is one of its characteristics. If you have the idea in your head w/o being in that state of natural grace, I doubt you'll connect with people in any real way. You'll probably come off as smarmy w/o realizing it.
 
I've benefitted immensely, from both experiencers and researchers. They both have enriched my life immeasurably. My book, I think, is a great example of the kind of life-changing information they bring to the table.

With respect to what kind of things can we reliably glean from NDEs, my book ends with a list of 90 core truths that I have identified. These core truths are also posted on NHNE's Formula website:

Universal Truths (v2.2)

If you read this list carefully, it should become immediately obvious how accepting, understanding and integrating these core truths into our lives can change everything.

View attachment 1191

I concur with a subset of that list, and I'm saying our data analysis tools aren't going to tease out some hidden information like a careful examination of particle collision trace data. The great spiritual breakthroughs will not arise out of the data. If I had to guess I'd say we'll evolve to a point where the morphogenic laws will tip and crazy shit will become possible and obvious.
 
Yes. Absolutely. This is a very important point. Near-death experiences are full of accounts that talk about vibration. Vibration. Vibration. Vibration. We end up in the places and states of consciousness that match our vibrations. And, more to the point, our overall vibration is not always apparent in this world. As you noted, people who are very beautiful on the outside can be very ugly on the inside. And, of course, we are all taught from birth to be habitual liars in this world. In a world where everyone is taught from birth that you are what you pretend to be, it comes as a real surprise that the afterlife plays by different rules: you are what you really are, not what you pretend to be, or wish you were. And, of course, we're not just our tiny egos and personalities. We also have to take into consideration the deeper parts of ourselves and our souls that are not visible.

David. Yes! I couldn't agree more. And, IMO, it's not just in the non-physical worlds. It's also in the physical realm because, we are ultimately first and foremost mind/spirit and only very secondly an expression in physical/gross/dense vibration.

I have been arguing with some people here about their conspiratorial outlook on life; including the idea that other intelligences are messing with us, manipulating our reality, etc.

To the contrary, IMO, it's ultimately all about you doing it to yourself. Once you realize what you said in the quote above, then my perspective is the only valid conclusion that one can reach. You will align with - and enter into a perceptual and energetic feedback loop with - what is on the same vibrational level that you are. Reality is a lock and key type relationship between what is in you (or more accurately, what you are, your aura, etc) and what is outside of you. In fact, inside/outside become meaningless because they are one. I guess an important component that I sometimes fail to mention is that it is up to you to choose what you will align with. You choose your vibrational level. This is the part that many don't want to accept. They want it to be about outside intelligences doing things to them. that is the path of denial of responsibility and falling into victimhood and excuse making. I have read NDE accounts that specifically state that such an approach will not do. It is not an excuse accepted by the higher self or The Light, etc.
 
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What should one make of all this? Is this all just coincidence, or is it 'something' giving me hints about "the Truth"? Or is something playing with me, knowing that I am on a quest to understand what it is all about? Or is someone trying to mislead me into believing something which they want me to believe? It's impossible to know for sure. I am not going to take this all at face value just because I came across it via an 11-related synchronicity. By that I mean that if the number 11 had not pestered me for years, I would not have looked at that book, which my mother, for some reason unknown to me (and, seeing how we can be manipulated, probably unknown to her as well) showed a keen interest for years ago.

awesome... thx for sharing. love the part about your mother requesting a hard to find book and then not being interested when it arrives because it wasn't really for her it was for you :) from the little bit I know about you from this forum, this kind of poetic playfulness would seem a good way to get your attention :)
 
David. Yes! I couldn't agree more. And, IMO, it's not just in the non-physical worlds. It's also in the physical realm because, we are ultimately first and foremost mind/spirit and only very secondly an expression in physical/gross/dense vibration.

I have been arguing with some people here about their conspiratorial outlook on life; including the idea that other intelligences are messing with us, manipulating our reality, etc.

To the contrary, IMO, it's ultimately all about you doing it to yourself. Once you realize what you said in the quote above, then my perspective is the only valid conclusion that one can reach. You will align with - and enter into a perceptual and energetic feedback loop with - what is on the same vibrational level that you are. Reality is a lock and key type relationship between what is in you (or more accurately, what you are, your aura, etc) and what is outside of you. In fact, inside/outside become meaningless because they are one. I guess an important component that I sometimes fail to mention is that it is up to you to choose what you will align with. You choose your vibrational level. This is the part that many don't want to accept. They want it to be about outside intelligences doing things to them. that is the path of denial of responsibility and falling into victimhood and excuse making. I have read NDE accounts that specifically state that such an approach will not do. It is not an excuse accepted by the higher self or The Light, etc.

Yeah, my experience with dark entities backed up that saying 'what you resist persists.'
 
When you are "resisting" you are still focused on it and still on the same vibrational level

Totally. Even in mundane reality you see this. You can be dragged into an argument or someone's negative space unless you're mindful. At that point you're dancing to their tune.

None of this means I don't believe there are manipulators out there. I have no doubt that there are folks pushing narratives and belief systems they know are not true with the goal of keeping us unevolved. I don't think the Randi-type skeptics or the disinformation peddlers are benign.
 
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I concur with a subset of that list, and I'm saying our data analysis tools aren't going to tease out some hidden information like a careful examination of particle collision trace data. The great spiritual breakthroughs will not arise out of the data. If I had to guess I'd say we'll evolve to a point where the morphogenic laws will tip and crazy shit will become possible and obvious.

I would say "crazy shit will become possible and obvious" the more we are able to understand, practice and embody the universal truths that NDEs are revealing to us...
 
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