Hi Vortex - thanks for your thoughts. I agree with most if not all of what you write!
Just on the "death threats" issue, I may be mistaken but I thought it was David Lane himself who, in the excerpt posted at the beginning of this podcast, says he "received death threats yada yada yada" or some such? I paid attention to that because I have had numerous online discussions with Dave, and also read everything he's written on the subject, as well as read 1000s of his forum posts - and I do not recall him saying previously that he received "death threats" from Eckanakar followers, but it is extremely likely I had just forgotten that. I do recall, on the other hand, he had received death & other intimidating threats due to his comments about Sai Baba, and another american Radhasoami "spin-off" group which, actually, appeared to be, quite disturbingly, from an organisational/guru level!! (group is called MSIA I believe). I would guess that any and all Eckankar related death threats were from disturbed individuals rather than from an organisational level as I would certainely have know about it if otherwise? Imo, it is always worth distinguishing between disturbed individuals, and organisational culture.
Hi Alex (and partially Vortex again re. the science issue) - I'm a little bit apprehenisive about what you're saying here, and I think it needs clarification. To what degree should we be insisting that IANDS "should be giving the stiff arm to EVERY religion"? For eg., what if there is an Anglican Priest, but one who is extremely open minded & has done tons of valuable research into NDEs, and whose activities in the field are completely & utterly divorced from their function as a priest? And, are we now saying anybody who is involved at any level with any religious/spiritual group/practice should be disbarred from being on the board of IANDS? Isn't that, itself, biased?
Also, Robert's "but have you read Anne's book" comment, again, I can't help but be extremely cautious about - because I haven't read the book!! I cannot say for sure, for example, that there isn't a chapter in there where Anne explicitly and overtly addresses ALL the concerns raised on this forum, and she clearly explains her function as Eck member is completely and utterly divorced from her work with IANDS, and that she makes a continual & concerted effort not to conflate the two fields and skewer the message in either group?! So, I reserve judgment on the comment.
On the other hand, I do indeed share your concerns, and was harboring these thoughts years ago. This is clearly a very ambiguous issue with only ambiguous solutions. However, if there are clear blurring of boundaries between Eck and IANDS, or if they start trying to sell Eck in any way in their meetings, then the issue becomes a little less ambiguous, and the solution likewise - kick Eck out or risk losing all credibility!
Finally (to Vortex also), there was one comment in your interview, Alex, that I did take exception to, and that was the one where you said something like "IANDS should be about the science, not this spiritual/religious stuff" or some such (I hope I got the gist right?). To which I would say, why should it?
Here's my opinion on NDEs (after decades of interest) - there will never be, ever, any scientific proof of NDEs demonstrating survival beyond or outside the body. To believe this is possible is, imo, naive & lacking in understanding of what the phenomena really is, and what it signifies to humans; meaning. If there was EVER going to be any incontrovertible "proof" of any of these things such as OBEs, NDEs, PSI etc (beyond statistical proof), then we would have had it years ago, and people would be demonstrating it willy nilly! I do not believe, on any level, that the purpose of NDEs (should there be one, which I believe there is) is to provide incontrovertible scientific proof of "life after death" or whatever, as if we had that proof - the purpose of this life, from within that conceptual/cosmological framework, would be made entirely obsolete imo, if that makes sense.
In view of this, why should IANDS be entirely & purely focused on scientific research? Personally, I believe that is the LEAST helpful, meaningful & valuable way of looking at NDEs!! I just read their mission statement now, and nowhere does it say it is purely about scientific research? I think the solution they're using, as described by Vortex, seems quite reasonable, and covers all bases? (of course, I'm not saying scientific research into NDEs won't help us understand many things about the brain or what not, just that it will never provide scientific proof of "life after death" or consciousness existing outside the body... for a start, it would help if there was any scientific proof consciousness even exists anywhere, let alone outside of the body :)
What is really interesting about NDEs, imo, is the narrative. It's all about the narrative....which includes, btw, though imo to a lesser level of importance, the narrative of "scientific proof", "veridical perception" etc that surrounds the topic. I believe there may be a purpose to this entire dynamic, but one that very few, if any at all of us, can fully grasp. Whilst the narrative of "scientific research" into NDEs is interesting.....my prediction is that there will never, ever, be any scientific proof for "survival". And I'm NOT saying that because I don't believe in the possibility of survival.....
Hi Stephen - thanks for your kind comments about Sikhs! Though personally, I feel humans are humans regardless of their religious background, and Sikhs are certainly no exception - there are plenty of very, very bad apples in there and very often so called "religious" ones....
Kirpal Singh was obviously Twitchell's guru (who Twitchell later claimed wasn't!), and Kirpal himself was an off-shoot of the branch I followed - a quite acrimonious split from which, imo, nobody emerged with any dignity or grace, and in my very personal opinion, certainly not Kirpal. If by "their fruits ye shall know them", then the least said about Kirpal the better (several very, very questionable off-shoots...Eckankar's one of the better ones, and that's saying something!!). But, as with most human beings, these guys/gurus (and they are all guys, except one called Ching Hai) have a very, very beautiful, loving & compassionate side to them as well...
I am not going to defend RSSB's various criticisms.....I haven't been associated with them, or any other group/religion for more than 10 years......though there are of course various defences to be made, and these questions have been posed directly to the gurus numerous times before, and the responses I heard were fairly reasonable.....but there are always two sides to any story...
The funny thing is, I agree with almost every single comment in this thread, even those that directly contradict each other! I completely agree with Alex as well, yet here I am contradicting him!! :)
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Things I find more interesting: My 2 strange personal experiences with Eckankar
I was aged around 13 and was already aware of the RS teachings, and fully believed them. One day I looked through the Yellow Pages Directory (pre internet days for any kids out there!) to search for any "spiritual organisations".....there were two that caught my eye, and I called them both up to see what info I could get. They were The Quakers and Eckankar, never heard of either of them before (well, possibly Quakers, not sure now). They both very kindly sent me introductory material in the post.
When reading through the Eck materials (pamphlets), at the bottom of one it clearly said "Eckankar is a subsidiary of Ruhani Satsang" or some such legal claim. I believe I was vaguely aware of Ruhani Satsang, as that is Kirpal's group which was the only major off-shot from the RSSB group I had started believing in recently. So I was intrigued by this apparent legal claim. I phoned up our local centre (which was just a family house on Teddington Green in London, and amazingly less than a 30 min bus ride from my home, so I could easily go there alone) as I wanted to get some more books from them. The guy was very nice and helpful, so at one point I said to him "it says on the bottom of one of the pamphlets that you're a subsidiary of Ruhani Satsang"...at that point his entire tone changed to extremely cautious. He said "no, that is impossible, it doesn't say that anywhere". I kept insisting it did, I saw it with my own eyes minutes earlier! He said "can you dig out and tell me which pamphlet" so I started going through them all but couldn't find it, which I thought strange. I said to him I'll look properly when I'm off the phone and let you know. When off the phone, I spent literally 30+ mins going over these few small pamphlets looking for this postscript......but I never did find it!!
I thought the entire experience very odd and quite surreal - from not being able to find this thing I DEFINITELY saw on a few small pamphlets, to the seriously weird change in conversational tone with the guy....I simply didn't understand what that was all about on either account, and promptly forgot about the whole thing.
It is only decades later, whilst on David Lane's forum, recalling this experience, that I realised just how incredibly strange it was.....almost, imo, paranormally so!
Now I realise it would be impossible Eck would write "Eck is a subsidiary of Ruhani" on their official pamphlets! So what did I see...so clearly I can still see it now?
This may mean nothing to most people on this forum, certainly those who don't understand the dynamic of gurus, spiritual paths etc and Radhasoami in particular.....but the implications, thinking in retrospect, of this experience are actually quite, quite profound....
It is worth noting that paranormal experiences are considered almost normal in these groups!
2nd experience: I did go to that house and bought several books and tapes. Btw, the guy was very very nice, friendly and not imposing/controlling in any way....perhaps he was cautious because I was a child?!
Anyway, one of the things I got was a tape which on one side had a lecture discussion, I believe, and on the other a loooooong chant of the word "Hu" which is their sacred mantra. I listened to this tape before going to sleep.
In the middle of that night, I was awoken in this vast empty space, and all I could hear was this continuous chorus of voices, all on top of each other and blending in and out of each other, singing the word "Huuuuu".
I was completely conscious and aware and alert, and the experience lasted for quite a while. Extremely fascinating.
Being familiar with a whole host of "altered experiences", even more so in retrospect, this one was quite unique.....a very differen't "locale" to use Monroe's terminology if this was just a lucid dream....unlike any I've had before or since.
Just thought I'd mention those! Those are the sum total of my involvement with the group, apart from tangential discussions on Dave's forum years later.....
Cheeerio all :)