How bad is this “mildly dangerous” cult? And what’s their connection to near-death experience scienc

[PTEHA]

I see that most people do not think a spiritual master exists. This is a sad state of things.

Is it really such a "sad state"? as per North's sig.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" Einstein

I do have to exercise discernment to select a good surgeon, but I am not going to perform surgery on myself.

And who told you needed "spiritual surgery" in the first place? And why did you believe that is even half true?
Oh, it was the "spiritual master" who told us that - OK then, he must be right. :)
It happens a lot.

 

[Stephen Wright]

Not too bad. Worth reading imo and seeing where it might take oneself. It also shows how difficult it is to write about these matters clearly and definitively without getting lost in mumbo jumbo, conflicted histories, language and semantics. I can see how that post could be converted to a detailed footnoted book, and still many readers would not end up all the wiser, while others would, and some others would sail off into some entirely unintended direction about it. Also change Hubbard's name to Paul Twitchell and Eckankar and the blog post comments about Scientology will still fit 100%. Just change the "e-meter" to "spiritual exercises" (meditation techniques)

Yes eg in the comments section

Perhaps Steve Wright might like to drop Eric a note about how "offensive and threating" saying that [ie speaking the truth] is to some people??? ref: http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/posts/87829

I am more into truth tables in logical analysis than into a personal opinion purported to "speak the truth", especially my own. I hope you don't take my opinions as being anything beyond my limited world-view. Eric Wargo's piece in question is excellent writing and was objective exposé with balance. His ideas are well-considered and professionally crafted.

The thing is, that “left-brained” picture of reality is probably half accurate. Exactly half. The world needs paranoids who can see patterns in noise, because sometimes those patterns really are there; there really are conspiracies and elites, secrets and lies, and we need X-men to sniff them out and stand up to them. But such gnoses need to be tempered with some right-brained humility, some lunar gentleness. - E. Wargo

PTEHA, I have appreciated learning of your path and feelings about it; and thank you for sharing. Like Eric - my imagination sees a real battle of dark and light in our "inner spaces".

My opinion - and it is just my personal opinion - is that occult behavior is a bad thing and that the right-brained work of Jung and Perls is antithetical to its function that thrives on covert communication. Exposure and the light of day is what science and philosophical analysis does to protect us all. Sensitives with second sight, who respect that it comes thru them and not from themselves (or for themselves) have the best messages, IMHO. E. Cayce comes to mind.

Unlike Eric, I have the left-brained accounts as being just representational and not 50% accurate. On the other hand his balance in contrasting to the traits of innocence, humility and gentleness was done beautifully.

 

[Far.From.Here]

I am more into truth tables in logical analysis than into a personal opinion purported to "speak the truth", especially my own. I hope you don't take my opinions as being anything beyond my limited world-view. Eric Wargo's piece in question is excellent writing and was objective exposé with balance. His ideas are well-considered and professionally crafted.


PTEHA, I have appreciated learning of your path and feelings about it; and thank you for sharing. Like Eric - my imagination sees a real battle of dark and light in our "inner spaces".

My opinion - and it is just my personal opinion - is that occult behavior is a bad thing and that the right-brained work of Jung and Perls is antithetical to its function that thrives on covert communication. Exposure and the light of day is what science and philosophical analysis does to protect us all. Sensitives with second sight, who respect that it comes thru them and not from themselves (or for themselves) have the best messages, IMHO. E. Cayce comes to mind.

Unlike Eric, I have the left-brained accounts as being just representational and not 50% accurate. On the other hand his balance in contrasting to the traits of innocence, humility and gentleness was done beautifully.

Which is all good provided language, reason and logic aren't purely constructs within this "reality."

 

[Philemon]

very funny! but as with much of the atheist stuff (not saying they are... just saying) it risks missing the point.

would love to have these guys on Skeptiko if anyone wants to send an invite.

You know, I don't think I've ever seen these guys go out of character while being interviewed. That isn't to say they don't do serious videos, but I've never seen them be serious about anything at any time. Here's them speaking more at length about their satirical, New Age self-help system, "The Zone Theory":

It goes more in depth and is even more cynical than the previous video I linked to. Again, they remain in character.

My friends and I are big fans of Tim & Eric, but if you binge watch any of their material or spin-off stuff overly long, you will begin to get hit with that nauseating, nihilistic feeling of unreality and ungroundedness that I also feel from consuming "serious" materialist works. I eventually have to turn my attention to other things to get grounded again.

I don't know if they're atheists or not. A quick Google search doesn't turn up anything. Based on this Zone Theory stuff and some other skits I've seen them do, I would have to guess they have at least been exposed to some New Religious Movements in their lifetimes, and likely found them ridiculous, or were perhaps burnt by them, and are now satirizing them to death in their material. It's not hard to do. So many of these movements readily lend themselves to being mocked to death by anyone not already leaning toward accepting them.

 

[Philemon]

I want to make a comment related to this whole NDE/Cult movement episode. When Alex first started bringing it up, I was reminded of an encounter with some folks from the "Virginia Beach Friends of IANDS" I had last year around this time. On my way back home from a vacation, I was passing through Virginia Beach and decided to drop by Edgar Cayce's A.R.E. as I had never been there before and a friend had recently suggested I read up on him. I figured I'd probably stop by for half an hour, check it out, and maybe get a book on the guy. When I arrived, it turned out that two near-death experiencers were going to be giving a talk about NDEs and healing. That's a topic of interest to me, so I talked my wife into spending the next two hours or so at the A.R.E. to listen to the presentation. As it went on, it turned out that the NDErs were promoting a specific, copyrighted healing approach called "The Reconnection" by a guy named Eric Pearl. The two presenters walked around the room, placing their hands a few inches away from our hands and kept asking, "Do you feel it? That's the energy" or something along those lines. I found myself reservedly nodding that I could feel something, but it sure wasn't very notable, and I couldn't tell if it was just the sense of intentionally bringing my awareness to bear on the sensations that are always going on in my hands. To my way of thinking, some sort of profound energy that needs to be copyrighted/trademarked ought to really make itself known to me in an unambiguous way. We were then told that the two ladies who were doing the presentation had been transformed by some advanced process in "The Reconnection" and that it is because of this that they can heal others. We were all invited to come to an upcoming, specially reduced seminar in the mid-Atlantic region so that we, too, could be healed and transformed and turned into healers, like them. The cost per person was something like $1,750 from what I can recall. Prices on his website are not far from this price point for certain presentations he gives.

I felt bad that I had wasted my wife's time on sitting through what turned out to be a live infomercial and the whole thing just left me feeling grody. Earlier that week, we had been deceived by a woman who posed as a local museum curator to come into a "museum" which ultimately turned out to be a small space filled with old photographs of the surrounding area. After a short talk about some of the photographs, and with no transition whatsoever, we found ourselves being treated to a high pressure sales pitch to buy into a local condo. Maybe it was having been exposed to this earlier deceitfulness, but having two supposed NDErs try to sell me some very expensive magic beans was a bit much, especially as they had already pressured us to give a very generous donation just to listen to their commercial. I think I mentioned it before here in the forum, but on the way out, my wife and I both got our "aura photographed." A few steps out of the building, I took a look at the pictures and the accompanying interpretations only to discover that my wife and I received the exact same interpretations! I went back in, insisted on having the photos retaken, and - voila - again, identical, lengthy, interpretations! "The machine must be broken," suggested the teenaged boy behind the counter, before offering us the $100 refund. That was the icing on the cake. My wife is not as open minded as I am to these kinds of things, and I have to say, I walked away from the experience feeling like she had good reason to be reserved about it.

Anyway, I used to buy into the whole idea about near-death experiencers being some sort of transformed saints, like St. Paul, or something. But there is something very tricksterish about this whole new industry of near-death experience books and "heaven tourism." We are regularly told that these folks come back psychic, with healing abilities, and great knowledge about the workings of reality. However, I'd rather listen to Sam Harris - or, God forbid, James Randi - tell me about the workings of the world than one of those two women at the A.R.E.! They seemed like nice ladies, but they were completely irrational, and whatever their near-death experiences might have taught them, it sure didn't give them any discernment. It is hard here to explain how I came to these conclusions about them, but after listening to them go on for over two hours, I was treated to so many examples of fallacious thinking that I couldn't take them seriously. It seemed to be implied that we were expected to trust them based on their authority as NDErs!

Anyway, just an anecdote I wanted to share.

 

[K9!]

I want to make a comment related to this whole NDE/Cult movement episode. When Alex first started bringing it up, I was reminded of an encounter with some folks from the "Virginia Beach Friends of IANDS" I had last year around this time. On my way back home from a vacation, I was passing through Virginia Beach and decided to drop by Edgar Cayce's A.R.E. as I had never been there before and a friend had recently suggested I read up on him. I figured I'd probably stop by for half an hour, check it out, and maybe get a book on the guy. When I arrived, it turned out that two near-death experiencers were going to be giving a talk about NDEs and healing. That's a top of interest to me, so I talked my wife into spending the next two hours or so at the A.R.E. to listen to the presentation. As it went on, it turned out that the NDErs were promoting a specific, copyrighted healing approach called "The Reconnection" by a guy named Eric Pearl. The two presenters walked around the room, placing their hands a few inches away from our hands and kept asking, "Do you feel it? That's the energy" or something along those lines. I found myself reservedly nodding that I could feel something, but it sure wasn't very notable, and I couldn't tell if it was just the sense of intentionally bringing my awareness to bear on the sensations that are always going on in my hands. To my way of thinking, some sort of profound energy that needs to be copyrighted/trademarked ought to really make itself known to me in an unambiguous way. We were then told that the two ladies who were doing the presentation had been transformed by some advanced process in "The Reconnection" and that it is because of this that they can heal others. We were all invited to come to an upcoming, specially reduced seminar in the mid-Atlantic region so that we, too, could be healed and transformed and turned into healers, like them. The cost per person was something like $1,750 from what I can recall. Prices on his website are not far from this price point for certain presentations he gives.

I felt bad that I had wasted my wife's time on sitting through what turned out to be a live infomercial and the whole thing just left me feeling grody. Earlier that week, we had been deceived by a woman who posed as a local museum curator to come into a "museum" which ultimately turned out to be a small space filled with old photographs of the surrounding area. After a short talk about some of the photographs, and with no transition whatsoever, we found ourselves being treated to a high pressure sales pitch to buy into a local condo. Maybe it was having been exposed to this earlier deceitfulness, but having two supposed NDErs try to sell me some very expensive magic beans was a bit much, especially as they had already pressured us to give a very generous donation just to listen to their commercial. I think I mentioned it before here in the forum, but on the way out, my wife and I both got our "aura photographed." A few steps out of the building, I took a look at the pictures and the accompanying interpretations only to discover that my wife and I received the exact same interpretations! I went back in, insisted on having the photos retaken, and - voila - again, identical, lengthy, interpretations! "The machine must be broken," suggested the teenaged boy behind the counter, before offering us the $100 refund. That was the icing on the cake. My wife is not as open minded as I am to these kinds of things, and I have to say, I walked away from the experience feeling like she had good reason to be reserved about it.

Anyway, I used to buy into the whole idea bout near-death experiencers being some sort of transformed saints, like St. Paul, or something. But there is something very tricksterish about this whole new industry of near-death experience books and "heaven tourism." We are regularly told that these folks come back psychic, with healing abilities, and great knowledge about the workings of reality. However, I'd rather listen to Sam Harris - or, God forbid, James Randi, tell me about the workings of the world than one of those two women at the A.R.E.! They seemed like nice ladies, but they were completely irrational, and whatever their near-death experiences might have taught them, it sure didn't give them any discernment. It is hard here to explain how I came to these conclusions about them, but after listening to them go on for over two hours, I was treated to so many examples of fallacious thinking, that I couldn't take them seriously. It seemed to be implied that were expected to trust them based on their authority as NDErs!

Anyway, just an anecdote I wanted to share.

I've seen a lot of that kind of thing in the NDE community. Many of the workshops at IANDS conferences are basically infomercials that you pay extra to be subjected to, although at least it isn't as much as those ladies were asking for.

I think it's easy to fall into the trap of believing that "special" people are "good" people. I've worked with some very talented musicians over the years, and it took me a while to realize that just because someone was a wonderful artist who could really connect with people during a performance... that didn't mean they weren't a jerk backstage. It didn't mean they were nicer or more evolved than the rest of us. People are just people.

There are very few NDErs willing to be tested to see if there is any truth to the idea that having an NDE makes you more psychic. Many people make claims though.

 

[Philemon]

I've seen a lot of that kind of thing in the NDE community. Many of the workshops at IANDS conferences are basically infomercials that you pay extra to be subjected to, although at least it isn't as much as those ladies were asking for.

That's disappointing to hear, but I'm not surprised, especially after my experience at the A.R.E. It saddens me, though, as I still recall the freshness and excitement I felt about the whole NDE culture when I first encountered it through Kevin William's near-death.com website 15+ years ago, as a teenager. Any time I see folks trying to make a buck (or a thousand or two) off of something I had good associations to, it quickly ruins it for me.

I think it's easy to fall into the trap of believing that "special" people are "good" people. I've worked with some very talented musicians over the years, and it took me a while to realize that just because someone was a wonderful artist who could really connect with people during a performance... that didn't mean they weren't a jerk backstage. It didn't mean they were nicer or more evolved than the rest of us. People are just people.

I would normally agree with this, but the idea that NDErs come back transformed for the better is a main component of the NDE mythology. It is repeated ad nauseum online and in popular media on the topic. Likewise, "enlightenment experiences" are frequently touted in a similar fashion. I already knew "enlightened" people were prone to disappoint one's hopes and expectations - and I guess I knew this about NDErs too. I just didn't want to accept it.

There are very few NDErs willing to be tested to see if there is any truth to the idea that having an NDE makes you more psychic. Many people make claims though.

Good to know. One particular cheerleader for these kinds of ideas abuot NDErs being great people with psychic abilities and healing powers is PMH Atwater who also comes across to me as flaky and unserious. Despite criticisms of her and her work, I still see it being referred to as authoritative with a good deal of frequency.

 

[K9!]

Good to know. One particular cheerleader for these kinds of ideas abuot NDErs being great people with psychic abilities and healing powers is PMH Atwater who also comes across to me as flaky and unserious. Despite criticisms of her and her work, I still see it being referred to as authoritative with a good deal of frequency.

I actually think there is some truth to the idea that NDErs are more likely to have psi experiences. But testing is needed to find out more. And many NDErs report things like poltergeist activity which gets them labelled as evil by certain groups. It's OK to talk about how "god" gave you all the answers while you were in "heaven". It isn't OK to talk about poltergeist activity after an NDE, but I keep meeting NDErs who report such things privately.

What NDErs talk about in public is increasingly shaped by expectations of what audiences want to hear. Don't blame the NDErs for that. NDErs who don't tell the accepted mythology don't get a voice.

 

[PTEHA]

PTEHA, I have appreciated learning of your path

IT IS NOT MY PATH !!!

I do not believe you have appreciated anything nor even heard what I have said.

I hope you don't take my opinions as being anything beyond my limited world-view.

Please know that's a given.

 

[PTEHA]

fwiw VISION OF THE FUTURE - MARSHALL ROSENBERG

 

[Alex]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen these guys go out of character while being interviewed. That isn't to say they don't do serious videos, but I've never seen them be serious about anything at any time. Here's them speaking more at length about their satirical, New Age self-help system, "The Zone Theory":

It goes more in depth and is even more cynical than the previous video I linked to. Again, they remain in character.

My friends and I are big fans of Tim & Eric, but if you binge watch any of their material or spin-off stuff overly long, you will begin to get hit with that nauseating, nihilistic feeling of unreality and ungroundedness that I also feel from consuming "serious" materialist works. I eventually have to turn my attention to other things to get grounded again.

I don't know if they're atheists or not. A quick Google search doesn't turn up anything. Based on this Zone Theory stuff and some other skits I've seen them do, I would have to guess they have at least been exposed to some New Religious Movements in their lifetimes, and likely found them ridiculous, or were perhaps burnt by them, and are now satirizing them to death in their material. It's not hard to do. So many of these movements readily lend themselves to being mocked to death by anyone not already leaning toward accepting them.

reminds me of an interview I saw with the South Park guys where they said (paraphrasing), "sure Christianity is silly, but not as silly as Atheism." It would be cool if Tim & Eric are walking the same edge.

 

[manjit]

Interesting interview, thanks Alex.

Have very little time to respond, but I heard the podcast & I've skimmed through the excellent discussion here - apologies if I'm repeating anything said already.

First came across Eckankar some 25ish years ago. Read several books, tapes & visited our local centre back then. I also happened to have followed, with complete devotion for several years, Eck's parent group's parent group (grand-parent!), though they all have disowned each other. Not so happy families. Radhasoami satsang Beas was the group I followed. Have also read all of David Lane's writings on the subject as well as participated on his forum for what must be 15 years now. In addition to which, I also happen to be deeply fascinated by NDEs and have read numerous books, docs, videos etc etc on the subject. Quite honestly, if not arrogantly, I would say I'm quite an expert on these subjects! :)

Eckankar: Created by somebody who plagiarised vast swathes of RSSB (Radhasoami Beas) literature (I noticed this as a 13 year old independantly of David Lane, it's astonishing to me how it wasn't picked up sooner), misinterpreted many eastern "spiritual" concepts (the word Eckankar itself is is an erroneous use of the very first word in the Sikh holy book, and means "There is only One God"...any Sikh reading Twitchell's book (Secret Teachings of the Inner Worlds or some such?) would be astonished & disturbed at the nonsensical story he weaves around the word! The Sikh religion heavily influenced Radhasoami, of which Eckankar is a deriviative), and somebody who lied about & distorted his past.

However - and I don't really recall anyone mentioning this, especially amongst RS (Radhasoami) believers.....isn't that how every single other religion and spiritual practice on earth has evolved, more or less?
Certainely, without doubt, that is true of the RS path itself which goes back 100+ years. Worth considering imo.
Is Eckankar a "dangerous cult"? In my personal opinion, no, not at all really. It bears no comparison to Scientology imo. Their fees are fairly reasonable, and there are no questionable activities that I'm aware of. However, there will always be people who think any kind of belief or world-view which is different to their own is "dangerous". That's human nature for you!

David Lane receiving death threats? First of all, my sincere praise & admiration for David Lane must be expressed here - a brave and courageous man. However, were these "death threats" from the organisation, or from disturbed individual/s? It should be beyond obvious, if you criticise ANYTHING people are devoted to, some idiot somewhere will issue an empty death threat because of it. I would be more wary of criticising Justin Beiber online than Eckankar :)

All in all, Eckankar is imo a fairly harmless "cult", albeit one born in pure unadulturated deception. But that in my thorough & exhaustive research appears to be the general modus operandi for these "spiritual" groups throughout history, and certainely for the main Radhasoami groups which are fairly respected nowadays. Does it detract from the potential of that "path" to aid and help one, whatever those words even mean? I don't think so, personally.

Having heard the interview and read this thread, I'm still a little unclear to what extent IANDS is in bed with Eckankar? I have to say, I thought Robert's responses to Alex were extremely reasonable & understandable, and I feel he's between a rock and a hard place here. But then, I still don't understand what influence having Eck members on the board of IANDS is having on IANDS activities?

To be clear, I think I've stated here a long time ago somewhere that I feel the "religionisation" of NDEs is deeply worrying. Still, what impact is Eck having on IANDS?

Finally - and maybe this is just my pet concern - but this is something I've been obssessing over for many years & I'm quite surprised nobody's mentioned it yet - but the theology of Eckankar, in it's most accurate form, is completely & utterly contradictory to the cosmological/theological narrative of NDEs! I have written many dozens of posts on the subject on David Lane's forum over the years regarding this (more specifically Radhasoami theology, which Eck is a direct "rip" of in it's purest form. But I'm not accounting for any subtle changes in emphasis of the teachings as a contingency in context of modern culture, society and beliefs. Ie., things are made "nicer" so it appeals more. I say this because one of the original RS groups, grounded in old Indian & gnostic cosmology, has also done this - subtle changes in teaching so as to appropriate the public's fondness of NDE stories. Complete & utter lack of integrity imo, and shows what really motivates these groups imo. In any case, as somebody who has studied the path Eck is based on in obscene depth, going back thousands of years to trace it's evolution, the NDE narrative is in complete contradiction to the Eckankar narrative.

Still, if shit sells.....

:)

Cheerzs.

 

[north]

And who told you needed "spiritual surgery" in the first place? And why did you believe that is even half true?
Oh, it was the "spiritual master" who told us that - OK then, he must be right. :)
It happens a lot.

I did not write that I needed spiritual surgery. When I had appendicitis, it was clear to me that I needed surgery.

In most areas of my life I recognize that there are experts that I can benefit from. Most accounts of the spiritual path demonstrate that it is challenging. If I go to a bad dentist, do I give up on dentistry? If you have a bad meal, do you stop going to restaurants?

The existence of fool's gold does not exclude the existence of true gold.

For me, the search began with both an ache and a hunger.

 

[Vortex]

Eckankar: Created by somebody who plagiarised vast swathes of RSSB (Radhasoami Beas) literature (I noticed this as a 13 year old independantly of David Lane, it's astonishing to me how it wasn't picked up sooner), misinterpreted many eastern "spiritual" concepts (the word Eckankar itself is is an erroneous use of the very first word in the Sikh holy book, and means "There is only One God"...any Sikh reading Twitchell's book (Secret Teachings of the Inner Worlds or some such?) would be astonished & disturbed at the nonsensical story he weaves around the word! The Sikh religion heavily influenced Radhasoami, of which Eckankar is a deriviative), and somebody who lied about & distorted his past.

However - and I don't really recall anyone mentioning this, especially amongst RS (Radhasoami) believers.....isn't that how every single other religion and spiritual practice on earth has evolved, more or less?
Certainely, without doubt, that is true of the RS path itself which goes back 100+ years. Worth considering imo.

The accusation of plagarism may be brought against ALL religious, spiritual or philosophical teachings - well, even against scientific theories - since none of them is completely novel and entirely original. Each and every one of them was based on some pre-existing ideas and older metaphors. For example, should Christianity and Islam be accused of plagarising Judaism? Since they borrowed a pretty lot of old Jewish stuff (in case of Christianity, the whole Old Testament... and the New one also was not free from the Judaistic influence).

Is Eckankar a "dangerous cult"? In my personal opinion, no, not at all really. It bears no comparison to Scientology imo. Their fees are fairly reasonable, and there are no questionable activities that I'm aware of. However, there will always be people who think any kind of belief or world-view which is different to their own is "dangerous". That's human nature for you!

Agreed. It may seem a bit "authoritarian" to the hardcore libertarian type like me - but most religious communities seem "authoritarian" to me, because of their tendency of dogmatic belief and hierarchical subordination. Only recently, libertarian "spirituality centers" like Esalen Institiute and Intitute of Noetic Sciences emerged - the organisations which provide one with spiritual instruction and training without demanding an oath of loyalty of adherence to any particular belief (which is a good tendency). However, let's return to Eckankar: as far as I know, there is nothing really "dangerous" or "malevolent" about it, it is quite harmless. So, while religionisation of IANDS may be an issue, the presence of Eckankar in particular does not add anything especially negative to this general (potential) problem.

David Lane receiving death threats? First of all, my sincere praise & admiration for David Lane must be expressed here - a brave and courageous man. However, were these "death threats" from the organisation, or from disturbed individual/s? It should be beyond obvious, if you criticise ANYTHING people are devoted to, some idiot somewhere will issue an empty death threat because of it. I would be more wary of criticising Justin Beiber online than Eckankar.

As for now, the accusations of sending death threats was coming exclusively from K9!, who never provided any valid evidence to support them. So, until/unless he do it, for me this accusations would remain in the "not (yet) proven" limbo. But, given his persistent reluctance to provide evidence supporting his condemnatory claims (the refusal to provide name of the alleged "distinguished NDE researcher" driven from IANDS by its religionisation), I would not harbour much hope of seeing this evidence at all.

Having heard the interview and read this thread, I'm still a little unclear to what extent IANDS is in bed with Eckankar? I have to say, I thought Robert's responses to Alex were extremely reasonable & understandable, and I feel he's between a rock and a hard place here. But then, I still don't understand what influence having Eck members on the board of IANDS is having on IANDS activities?

To be clear, I think I've stated here a long time ago somewhere that I feel the "religionisation" of NDEs is deeply worrying. Still, what impact is Eck having on IANDS?

To be just, recently IANDS did an important move: it divided its conferences into two separate sessions - the "scientific" one and the "spiritual" one. So, they do attempt to draw the necessary line between verifiable research data and unverifiable spiritual stuff - good for them! Of course, it wouldn't be enough for many people here, who would rather prefer to see IANDS following the example of hardcore scientific anomalistic orgasations like the Parapsychological Association, the Society for Psychical Research and the Society for Scientific Exploration, which restrict their conferences and publications to the academically strict material...

 

[Alex]

However - and I don't really recall anyone mentioning this, especially amongst RS (Radhasoami) believers.....isn't that how every single other religion and spiritual practice on earth has evolved, more or less?

thx for this great post. totally agree with the above... can't be emphasized enough. but I think I take it in a different direction... i.e. IANDS should be giving the stiff arm to EVERY religion including Eck... but that's not good business, so they are between a rock and a hard place.

Then again, Robert's "but have you read Anne Butcher's book" line is kinda troubling... as if this legitimizes their group.

 

[Stephen Wright]

First came across Eckankar some 25ish years ago. Read several books, tapes & visited our local centre back then. I also happened to have followed, with complete devotion for several years, Eck's parent group's parent group (grand-parent!), though they all have disowned each other. Not so happy families. Radhasoami satsang Beas was the group I followed. Have also read all of David Lane's writings on the subject as well as participated on his forum for what must be 15 years now. In addition to which, I also happen to be deeply fascinated by NDEs and have read numerous books, docs, videos etc etc on the subject. Quite honestly, if not arrogantly, I would say I'm quite an expert on these subjects! :)

Eckankar: Created by somebody who plagiarised vast swathes of RSSB (Radhasoami Beas) literature (I noticed this as a 13 year old independantly of David Lane, it's astonishing to me how it wasn't picked up sooner), misinterpreted many eastern "spiritual" concepts (the word Eckankar itself is is an erroneous use of the very first word in the Sikh holy book, and means "There is only One God"...any Sikh reading Twitchell's book (Secret Teachings of the Inner Worlds or some such?) would be astonished & disturbed at the nonsensical story he weaves around the word! The Sikh religion heavily influenced Radhasoami, of which Eckankar is a deriviative), and somebody who lied about & distorted his past.

However - and I don't really recall anyone mentioning this, especially amongst RS (Radhasoami) believers.....isn't that how every single other religion and spiritual practice on earth has evolved, more or less?

Still, if shit sells.....

Very informative post.

First, let me say I have had the pleasure to know a couple of Sikh gentlemen and found them to be of striking bearing and of the highest character. I have very modest exposure to the Sikh writings and while studying them, found them to be inspired and inspiring. The work of Kirpal Singh, who now I know is part of the RSSB tradition, is seeming exemplary in bringing spiritual folks together.

However, a quick check on the "fruits" of the religion finds questionable behavior.

The Delhi centre of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) has occupied 123 acres of forest land, the forest department has alleged.

The department has alleged the philosophical and charitable organisation, with several national and international centres, has occupied 72 acres of land in the Asola-Bhatti wildlife sanctuary in south Delhi and 51 acres of the adjoining Ridge or reserve forest.

Destruction of the Delhi ridge, of which the sanctuary is a part, means desertification of Delhi, fall of its water table and more pollution.

Deputy range officer of Delhi’s lone wildlife sanctuary, Dharam Singh, on Monday filed two complaints - HT has copies - with the police and made these allegations.

“It seems the head of RSSB, with help from his supporters, has occupied land and is trying to occupy more land. It seems on his directive, one Chandan Sharma is obstructing the survey work being done by us.”

“This violates sections of Wild Life (Protection) Act 1972 and the Indian Forest Act, 1927. These violations could be probed only by an assistant commissioner of police. Please act and get the land returned to the forest department,” the complaints read.

A senior Delhi Police official said, “Yes, we have received complaints from the forest department. We’re investigating the case”.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...f-land-grab/story-g9GBrPtAH1JFUbQQh2RjQI.html

 

[manjit]

Hi Vortex - thanks for your thoughts. I agree with most if not all of what you write!

Just on the "death threats" issue, I may be mistaken but I thought it was David Lane himself who, in the excerpt posted at the beginning of this podcast, says he "received death threats yada yada yada" or some such? I paid attention to that because I have had numerous online discussions with Dave, and also read everything he's written on the subject, as well as read 1000s of his forum posts - and I do not recall him saying previously that he received "death threats" from Eckanakar followers, but it is extremely likely I had just forgotten that. I do recall, on the other hand, he had received death & other intimidating threats due to his comments about Sai Baba, and another american Radhasoami "spin-off" group which, actually, appeared to be, quite disturbingly, from an organisational/guru level!! (group is called MSIA I believe). I would guess that any and all Eckankar related death threats were from disturbed individuals rather than from an organisational level as I would certainely have know about it if otherwise? Imo, it is always worth distinguishing between disturbed individuals, and organisational culture.

Hi Alex (and partially Vortex again re. the science issue) - I'm a little bit apprehenisive about what you're saying here, and I think it needs clarification. To what degree should we be insisting that IANDS "should be giving the stiff arm to EVERY religion"? For eg., what if there is an Anglican Priest, but one who is extremely open minded & has done tons of valuable research into NDEs, and whose activities in the field are completely & utterly divorced from their function as a priest? And, are we now saying anybody who is involved at any level with any religious/spiritual group/practice should be disbarred from being on the board of IANDS? Isn't that, itself, biased?

Also, Robert's "but have you read Anne's book" comment, again, I can't help but be extremely cautious about - because I haven't read the book!! I cannot say for sure, for example, that there isn't a chapter in there where Anne explicitly and overtly addresses ALL the concerns raised on this forum, and she clearly explains her function as Eck member is completely and utterly divorced from her work with IANDS, and that she makes a continual & concerted effort not to conflate the two fields and skewer the message in either group?! So, I reserve judgment on the comment.

On the other hand, I do indeed share your concerns, and was harboring these thoughts years ago. This is clearly a very ambiguous issue with only ambiguous solutions. However, if there are clear blurring of boundaries between Eck and IANDS, or if they start trying to sell Eck in any way in their meetings, then the issue becomes a little less ambiguous, and the solution likewise - kick Eck out or risk losing all credibility!

Finally (to Vortex also), there was one comment in your interview, Alex, that I did take exception to, and that was the one where you said something like "IANDS should be about the science, not this spiritual/religious stuff" or some such (I hope I got the gist right?). To which I would say, why should it?

Here's my opinion on NDEs (after decades of interest) - there will never be, ever, any scientific proof of NDEs demonstrating survival beyond or outside the body. To believe this is possible is, imo, naive & lacking in understanding of what the phenomena really is, and what it signifies to humans; meaning. If there was EVER going to be any incontrovertible "proof" of any of these things such as OBEs, NDEs, PSI etc (beyond statistical proof), then we would have had it years ago, and people would be demonstrating it willy nilly! I do not believe, on any level, that the purpose of NDEs (should there be one, which I believe there is) is to provide incontrovertible scientific proof of "life after death" or whatever, as if we had that proof - the purpose of this life, from within that conceptual/cosmological framework, would be made entirely obsolete imo, if that makes sense.

In view of this, why should IANDS be entirely & purely focused on scientific research? Personally, I believe that is the LEAST helpful, meaningful & valuable way of looking at NDEs!! I just read their mission statement now, and nowhere does it say it is purely about scientific research? I think the solution they're using, as described by Vortex, seems quite reasonable, and covers all bases? (of course, I'm not saying scientific research into NDEs won't help us understand many things about the brain or what not, just that it will never provide scientific proof of "life after death" or consciousness existing outside the body... for a start, it would help if there was any scientific proof consciousness even exists anywhere, let alone outside of the body :)

What is really interesting about NDEs, imo, is the narrative. It's all about the narrative....which includes, btw, though imo to a lesser level of importance, the narrative of "scientific proof", "veridical perception" etc that surrounds the topic. I believe there may be a purpose to this entire dynamic, but one that very few, if any at all of us, can fully grasp. Whilst the narrative of "scientific research" into NDEs is interesting.....my prediction is that there will never, ever, be any scientific proof for "survival". And I'm NOT saying that because I don't believe in the possibility of survival.....

Hi Stephen - thanks for your kind comments about Sikhs! Though personally, I feel humans are humans regardless of their religious background, and Sikhs are certainly no exception - there are plenty of very, very bad apples in there and very often so called "religious" ones....

Kirpal Singh was obviously Twitchell's guru (who Twitchell later claimed wasn't!), and Kirpal himself was an off-shoot of the branch I followed - a quite acrimonious split from which, imo, nobody emerged with any dignity or grace, and in my very personal opinion, certainly not Kirpal. If by "their fruits ye shall know them", then the least said about Kirpal the better (several very, very questionable off-shoots...Eckankar's one of the better ones, and that's saying something!!). But, as with most human beings, these guys/gurus (and they are all guys, except one called Ching Hai) have a very, very beautiful, loving & compassionate side to them as well...

I am not going to defend RSSB's various criticisms.....I haven't been associated with them, or any other group/religion for more than 10 years......though there are of course various defences to be made, and these questions have been posed directly to the gurus numerous times before, and the responses I heard were fairly reasonable.....but there are always two sides to any story...

The funny thing is, I agree with almost every single comment in this thread, even those that directly contradict each other! I completely agree with Alex as well, yet here I am contradicting him!! :)

###############################################################################################

Things I find more interesting: My 2 strange personal experiences with Eckankar

I was aged around 13 and was already aware of the RS teachings, and fully believed them. One day I looked through the Yellow Pages Directory (pre internet days for any kids out there!) to search for any "spiritual organisations".....there were two that caught my eye, and I called them both up to see what info I could get. They were The Quakers and Eckankar, never heard of either of them before (well, possibly Quakers, not sure now). They both very kindly sent me introductory material in the post.

When reading through the Eck materials (pamphlets), at the bottom of one it clearly said "Eckankar is a subsidiary of Ruhani Satsang" or some such legal claim. I believe I was vaguely aware of Ruhani Satsang, as that is Kirpal's group which was the only major off-shot from the RSSB group I had started believing in recently. So I was intrigued by this apparent legal claim. I phoned up our local centre (which was just a family house on Teddington Green in London, and amazingly less than a 30 min bus ride from my home, so I could easily go there alone) as I wanted to get some more books from them. The guy was very nice and helpful, so at one point I said to him "it says on the bottom of one of the pamphlets that you're a subsidiary of Ruhani Satsang"...at that point his entire tone changed to extremely cautious. He said "no, that is impossible, it doesn't say that anywhere". I kept insisting it did, I saw it with my own eyes minutes earlier! He said "can you dig out and tell me which pamphlet" so I started going through them all but couldn't find it, which I thought strange. I said to him I'll look properly when I'm off the phone and let you know. When off the phone, I spent literally 30+ mins going over these few small pamphlets looking for this postscript......but I never did find it!!

I thought the entire experience very odd and quite surreal - from not being able to find this thing I DEFINITELY saw on a few small pamphlets, to the seriously weird change in conversational tone with the guy....I simply didn't understand what that was all about on either account, and promptly forgot about the whole thing.

It is only decades later, whilst on David Lane's forum, recalling this experience, that I realised just how incredibly strange it was.....almost, imo, paranormally so!

Now I realise it would be impossible Eck would write "Eck is a subsidiary of Ruhani" on their official pamphlets! So what did I see...so clearly I can still see it now?

This may mean nothing to most people on this forum, certainly those who don't understand the dynamic of gurus, spiritual paths etc and Radhasoami in particular.....but the implications, thinking in retrospect, of this experience are actually quite, quite profound....

It is worth noting that paranormal experiences are considered almost normal in these groups!

2nd experience: I did go to that house and bought several books and tapes. Btw, the guy was very very nice, friendly and not imposing/controlling in any way....perhaps he was cautious because I was a child?!

Anyway, one of the things I got was a tape which on one side had a lecture discussion, I believe, and on the other a loooooong chant of the word "Hu" which is their sacred mantra. I listened to this tape before going to sleep.

In the middle of that night, I was awoken in this vast empty space, and all I could hear was this continuous chorus of voices, all on top of each other and blending in and out of each other, singing the word "Huuuuu".

I was completely conscious and aware and alert, and the experience lasted for quite a while. Extremely fascinating.

Being familiar with a whole host of "altered experiences", even more so in retrospect, this one was quite unique.....a very differen't "locale" to use Monroe's terminology if this was just a lucid dream....unlike any I've had before or since.

Just thought I'd mention those! Those are the sum total of my involvement with the group, apart from tangential discussions on Dave's forum years later.....

Cheeerio all :)

 

[PTEHA]

Plagiarism & since none of them is completely novel and entirely original. Each and every one of them was based on some pre-existing ideas and older metaphors.

Vortex, you're missing the point. It's not about pre-existing ideas etc, it is about verbatim copying & copyright infringement and is not about taking "ideas, concepts or metaphors" from other paths or writings that might have a dose of universality to them - it is about the intentional lying by Twitchell, and using those "verbatim writings" to falsely claim that they came via dictation from a mythical creation of Twitchell's eck masters who he says physically appeared to him and told him what to write.

It's false pretenses, it's lying, it's intentional, and it was done deliberately from ~1963 and has been denied by Eckankar ever since. It's about a total fiction being sold to people for cash, be it in books or in membership fees. It is an abuse of peoples freedom & right to know the truth and make an adult choice with all the facts at hand.

It's about fraudulent claims that ALL other religions and paths on Earth came from Eckankar TM - all this is based on Twitchell's lies and copying others written texts verbatim. That in itself is "dangerous" because it is a 50 year long manipulation of people filling their heads with intentional lies while the current leader has consciously withheld the truth, that he knew of for certain in late 1983/84 from all members, since Lane first published his TMOASM book.

Therefore Eckankar is closer to being a complete fraud than it is to being a legitimate religion. Because others have done this or similar in the last few thousands years does not make Eckankar all OK. Prior religions also used to say that slavery was fine and good and yet in the 21st century we know that is abhorrent and anti-human. Things change for the better, two wrongs will never make a "right" either.

The thousands of people who were once Eckists and state clearly how they have been harmed by it (just as victims of child sexual abuse state they were harmed by religious clergy) is what defines Eckankar as dangerous - it is NOT something that can be judged theoretically at a distance by people who have not been so affected and who do not know 1% of what goes on inside the group. Even when people like AAB say otherwise changes nothing about the reality of those seriously abused and harmed along the way. She isn't judge and jury. These matters should be weighed up on the basis of personal opinion alone where all are equal. All opinions are not equal and never will be. Clergy and Bishops have lied about the sexual abuse in religions and covered it up from secular legal systems and the public for decades and centuries too. Not knowing about, nor having the truth tellers labeled as liars and nutcases, never made what harm was done and how dangerous it was to people and children as all OK, fine and dandy.

Legally what Twitchell did were blatant breaches of existing copyright law at the time he did it. Several copyright holders took legal action against Eckankar. That they have not admitted that and continue to cover it up and minimize this aspect of copying others works is proof positive how dishonest and unethical Eckankar is, and how utterly misinformed members have been and proof that they continue to be manipulated by the LEM and the leadership. Anyone who says that isn't "dangerous" and immoral and unethical and unconscionable behavior, is not really grasping the issues correctly.

That some think it isn't as bad as Scientology behaviour so that makes it all OK, or that many other paths have done similar things as Eckankar by drawing on other earlier paths is pure sophistry imv. This kind of thinking is illogical and irrational iow fallacious. Manjit is a good guy too btw, but he does not know as much about Eckankar as I and others do. thx

 

[PTEHA]

ld guess that any and all Eckankar related death threats were from disturbed individuals rather than from an organisational level as I would certainly have know about it if otherwise? Imo, it is always worth distinguishing between disturbed individuals, and organisational culture.

That's correct Manjit. The unknown is how much did the CULTure and teaching myths and lies by Eckankar contribute to a follower member becoming a disturbed individual? Eckankar does not publish a list of how many Eckists end up dead by suicide, or having to be treated for serious psychosis, as a direct result of their involvement with the Eckankar teachings and the dysfunctional leadership system, or the advice given to members by pseudo "Spiritual Aides".

An absence of evidence (or not knowing of it) is not evidence of absence. But there is a mountain of evidence and first hand reports of such things, I have seen it for myself as have others. There is evidence of unethical actions by the leadership, and there is evidence that Klemp the current leader (self-reported in his bio) was institutionalized by a Court Judge for schizophrenia/psychotic events .. and it should be clear by everyone by now that Klemp's assertion of that event being a god-realization oobe experience in 1971 - in only his 3rd year in Eckankar - is in fact a classic PSYCHOTIC event and nothing like what Jivan Mukti or genuine inner experiences are like across hundreds of similar paths such as RSSB, Ruhani, the Sikhs and so on. I have seen no indications from Klemp over the years that he has overcome or resolved such mystical/psychotic/neurotic and irrational thinking nor addressed his own decades of dishonesty. Many others agree. Others do not and still look to him as the highest consciousness Godman - Sat Guru on this earth as he teaches he is.

fwiw from my own research, Kirpal Singh never claimed anything like was claimed and believed by any of the 3 living eck masters. Cheers to you Manjit.

 

[PTEHA]

because I haven't read the book!!

"Her" book is published and copyright by ECKANKAR.

Her talk last year at IANDS preached the basic teachings of Eckankar incl Mahanta LEM, the 972 prior eck masters, and how it is that the Eck masters and the LEM "appear to people" across time and space in oobes, dreams and ndes.

So what do you think her book is really about Manjit? It's about how oobe's and nde's prove the existence of ECK masters, and therefore proves the legitimacy of Eckankar as not only a genuine path/religion ... but the ORIGINAL Path to God since it was shipped from Venus to Earth and predates ALL other religious paths on Earth. Meanwhile people like Doug Marman are now preaching that Guru Nanak and Guru Arjan were actually "teaching what they knew about ECKANKAR"

How many lies, falsehoods and delusional beliefs does it take before they are labeled for what they really are? (a rhetorical question only)

btw the annual fees may be low, while the facts are that since the 1960s members have been donating $millions in cash and property to Eckankar each and every year. Eckankar never discloses this to anyone but the IRS. Nor do they ever disclose what they spend these $millions of donations on.