Grant Cameron – Classified documents suggest UFO/consciousness link |324|

Just a quick post to say I enjoy the longer interviews, and my main take-away here was the robust and stimulating debate between Grant and Alex for the last half hour or so - on the question of undifferentiated "oneness" vs. the question of hierarchy and different types of experiences in the "extended consciousness" realm(s). I tend to lean a bit more towards Alex's viewpoint on this one, but there were good points made on both sides (except for Grant's constant referring to the "left-brain", like others here have commented on), and it's the type of debate in which I go back and forth in my own mind. And both perspectives could in the end wind up being weirdly "true", whatever that word means.

Otherwise, this is just an impression, but I get the feeling that Grant is insufficiently skeptical about some of the UFO things he's looking into (completely sold over Roswell, the MJ-12 documents, etc., etc.) and that he seems very influenced by the "download" (?) he keeps referring to. But this is just an impression which could be wrong, I mean no disrespect, and I admire his hard work.

The other take-way I have from this podcast is Grant's opinion that going forward with UFO research means ignoring any attempts to convert academics and scientists, and that this field is and will remain anathema to them. My intuition is that he's completely right here and I admire him for taking a strong stance about it.
 
Joe Rogan, Buddha at the Gas Pump, Bernardo, etc - these guys aren't doing anything really fancy, but it just makes things feel a bit more engaging, if that makes any sense.
It's not all that easy.... I know Rick's he uses an extra external vid camera, a switcher and a volunteer to help set everything up ahead of time. Joe Rogan has a studio. None of this is over-the-top difficult, but it's not "easy."
 
Otherwise, this is just an impression, but I get the feeling that Grant is insufficiently skeptical about some of the UFO things he's looking into (completely sold over Roswell, the MJ-12 documents, etc., etc.) and that he seems very influenced by the "download" (?) he keeps referring to. But this is just an impression which could be wrong, I mean no disrespect, and I admire his hard work.

this sentiment has been expressed by others here on this thread, but I think the data suggests otherwise. The data points to a very effective disinformation campaign that has been effective at obscuring the truth. Dig into (as Grant has done) the Wilbert Smith memo. Are there any holes in it? Is it fake? Are the witnesses who back it up fake? There's only one conclusion I see.

[The other take-way I have from this podcast is Grant's opinion that going forward with UFO research means ignoring any attempts to convert academics and scientists, and that this field is and will remain anathema to them. My intuition is that he's completely right here and I admire him for taking a strong stance about it.
agreed.
 
this sentiment has been expressed by others here on this thread, but I think the data suggests otherwise. The data points to a very effective disinformation campaign that has been effective at obscuring the truth. Dig into (as Grant has done) the Wilbert Smith memo. Are there any holes in it? Is it fake? Are the witnesses who back it up fake? There's only one conclusion I see.
I think UFOs happen and are real (physical, non-physical, all types, etc.), I believe in the Wilbert Smith memo and that there has been government cover-up. I just get the impression that Grant doesn't seem as cautious and level-headed as someone like Friedman with what he comes across - but I could be wildly off here, it comes off as a feeling in terms of what he was saying and how he was saying it.

Also, since you bring it up, Alex, the podcast can give the impression that Grant's work has discovered all of this stuff (again, not sure, it was an impression), but the Smith memo was shown to Stanton Friedman by a Canadian investigator in 1979 (see Crash at Corona, 1992, p. 47), and I don't think the discovery of the MJ-12 documents also are Grant's work. (I read and reviewed Friedman's books on these topics on the forum here.) I think Grant has just continued the research started by others, like Friedman. But it's great he's doing so.
 
I think UFOs happen and are real (physical, non-physical, all types, etc.), I believe in the Wilbert Smith memo and that there has been government cover-up. I just get the impression that Grant doesn't seem as cautious and level-headed as someone like Friedman with what he comes across - but I could be wildly off here, it comes off as a feeling in terms of what he was saying and how he was saying it.

Also, since you bring it up, Alex, the podcast can give the impression that Grant's work has discovered all of this stuff (again, not sure, it was an impression), but the Smith memo was shown to Stanton Friedman by a Canadian investigator in 1979 (see Crash at Corona, 1992, p. 47), and I don't think the discovery of the MJ-12 documents also are Grant's work. (I read and reviewed Friedman's books on these topics on the forum here.) I think Grant has just continued the research started by others, like Friedman. But it's great he's doing so.

Interesting show.

The difficulty here is that, at the height of the Cold War, it suited the US government to allow the Russians to think that they had contact with aliens. and had access to their technology. There is evidence that government departments were involved in spreading just that sort of disinformation.

I know he comes with baggage, but Brian Dunning has a (IMO) worthwhile piece on MJ12 here. It's definitely a fun topic :)
 
I think UFOs happen and are real (physical, non-physical, all types, etc.), I believe in the Wilbert Smith memo and that there has been government cover-up. I just get the impression that Grant doesn't seem as cautious and level-headed as someone like Friedman with what he comes across - but I could be wildly off here, it comes off as a feeling in terms of what he was saying and how he was saying it.
I think Friedman is great, but I think people mishear what he's saying. I think he's correct to draw attention to the physical aspects of the phenomenon. This this the starting point. This is the observation. This is the first-hand experience. Listen to Friedman on Betty and Barney Hill -- he's all about consciousness in that case. I really want to get him back on.


Also, since you bring it up, Alex, the podcast can give the impression that Grant's work has discovered all of this stuff (again, not sure, it was an impression), but the Smith memo was shown to Stanton Friedman by a Canadian investigator in 1979 (see Crash at Corona, 1992, p. 47), and I don't think the discovery of the MJ-12 documents also are Grant's work. (I read and reviewed Friedman's books on these topics on the forum here.) I think Grant has just continued the research started by others, like Friedman. But it's great he's doing so.
I wasn't trying to take any credit away from Stanton Friedman... he's a giant in the field of UFO research and will never get the credit he deserves because groups pushed to the outside like UFO folks have a tendency to eat their own. And I've never heard Grant try and steal any attention/credit away from Friedman. Any confusion is my fault. Grant's very clear about what his contribution was/is.
 
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Friedman wrote a book about the Hills abduction case in 2007, Captured!. Here's one interview he did about it:

I wasn't aware, thanks. All the Vallee books were probably the last UFO books I read for the most part. The field became/is a joke. Even Vallee distanced/gave up on it himself for a very very long time till recently he did a book more on the historical aspects iirc.
 
Great interview! Love the range of topics and the long format.

I think Killary is just courting votes from the UFO crowd. She will be all things to all people to get the votes. She's well aware of the great popular interest (as she noted, the most popular item in the Clinton Library) in UFOs so it's a good move.

Peter Levanda in book 1 of his Sinister Forces trilogy connects a lot of dots around the first UFO sightings and clandestine services. So many "coincidences". I think it's highly likely UFOs are a combination of "real" magic and a magic trick which the clandestine services (the modern state magicians) hope to use to modify and manipulate consciousness on a global scale.

Initiation into various secret societies typically involved great psychological trauma designed to make the initiate think he was actually going to die a terrifying death and this was with the goal of breaking the individual ego to open him up to a mystical experience or a higher level of consciousness. This sometimes involved going deep underground and drug use and the master of the initiation would wear a mask. A type of this initiation is seen in Dante's Inferno and V for Vendetta. It seems to me that the alien abduction phenomenon might be a modern take on the ancient rites of initiation: great trauma, terror, scared to death, drugs, a masked persona, a higher level of consciousness achieved or mystical or psychic powers unlocked. Perhaps the major difference between initiation rites and trauma based mind control designed to fragment and compartmentalize personalities like MKULTRA is the length of time and number of times one goes through it.

Perhaps presidents undergo this alien abduction style initiation with the master of their rites in alien form and that is why they display signs of great stress and anxiety when publicly asked about aliens by Kimmel.

As numerous people and presidents (including Clinton) have noted: a powerful potential exists in the aliens from outer space narrative to unify people in a common cause: whether that is to fight bad aliens or follow "good" more powerful ones. For those who want to control people, narrative is critical, and the alien narrative, if played right, could be used to steer humanity for the next thousand years.
 
Great interview! Love the range of topics and the long format.

I think Killary is just courting votes from the UFO crowd. She will be all things to all people to get the votes. She's well aware of the great popular interest (as she noted, the most popular item in the Clinton Library) in UFOs so it's a good move.
agreed. too easy not to.

Peter Levanda in book 1 of his Sinister Forces trilogy connects a lot of dots around the first UFO sightings and clandestine services. So many "coincidences". I think it's highly likely UFOs are a combination of "real" magic and a magic trick which the clandestine services (the modern state magicians) hope to use to modify and manipulate consciousness on a global scale.
Levanda is great (would like to have him on) but I don't hear him going there.

I think it's much more likely that all this stuff is more or less what it appears to be... i.e. to construct a narrative where aliens are showing up on radar, being followed by fighter planes, leaving unknown high tech metals -- and are all just a magic/extended-consciousness thing... well, that doesn't leave much "non-magic" to reality.
 
Grant doesn't seem as cautious and level-headed as someone like Friedman

I haven't heard this interview and thought I would read the comments thread before deciding if I should.

I think you're spot on here Ian and that's why I'm not inclined to download this one.

Grant seems like a very nice & likable person, and I found the first interviews I heard of his, many years ago now, quite interesting. However, over the years.....and most especially in the last year or so (he kind of went absent from the online & podcast scene for a few years until recently??) I cannot help but feel he is far too credulous and uncritical of things which he hears about and chooses to believe.

There is a recent paracast interview with him iirc, and I personally completely resonated with the 2 hosts polite but strained discussion with him. I tend to agree with the hosts Gene & Chris on most things actually.

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I have a personal touch-stone to judge what I consider to be researchers & commentators value & worth, to me personally & subjectively, in these kind of areas:

If they consider the Roswell "incident" to be a real physical alien craft which crashed, from which the government recovered dead and/or living alien bodies and which the government has subsequently been covering up this fact? They really have nothing of any interest (to me personally) to say and I really don't feel they have got ANY kind of handle or grasp of the "ufo" phenomena on any informative or deep level AT ALL.

This would include Stanton Freidman (another very nice & likable person who I do actually find interesting on some levels, just that his adamant belief in "nuts and bolts ufos" is untenable, though some say when not in public he does tentatively acknowledge there may, perhaps, be a consciousness connection involved...).

The "ufo" phenomena, especially in modern times, is surely comprised of a wide variety of influences such as mundane psychology, military technology, organised governmental/military disinformation, sociology, politics, biology as well as other potentially more mysterious aspects such as the "imaginal" or daemonic realm, hyper-dimensional beings, aspects of our own consciousness etc etc etc etc (which are what interest me personally).

The movie Mirage Men (which iirc was mentioned on this forum?) is highly recommended in regards the military aspects.

Grant often mentions that somebody who worked with the government or military once suggested to him, with a nod and a wink, that until you understand consciousness you won't understand ufos. Well, yes. But what I think makes Grant an unreliable witness, imo, is just how much he READS into that comment. What could have been a throw away & thoughtless comment suggests to Grant that the government knows oh so much about ufos!! Too much unwarranted extrapolation for me

I think you can actually get a "feel" for what is a genuine, and therefore interesting to me, "mysterious/paranormal" ufo story and those that are actually misunderstood physical experiences either of black project aircraft or military drills/tech/projects (such as Roswell or Cash-Landrum).

Actually, scrap that.

The imaginal or daemonic very often bleeds into what was, once, a very mundane event, making it very hard to unravel what has really occurred....perhaps the Betty and Barney Hill case is an example of that?
 
This would include Stanton Freidman (another very nice & likable person who I do actually find interesting on some levels, just that his adamant belief in "nuts and bolts ufos" is untenable, though some say when not in public he does tentatively acknowledge there may, perhaps, be a consciousness connection involved...).

The "ufo" phenomena, especially in modern times, is surely comprised of a wide variety of influences such as mundane psychology, military technology, organised governmental/military disinformation, sociology, politics, biology as well as other potentially more mysterious aspects such as the "imaginal" or daemonic realm, hyper-dimensional beings, aspects of our own consciousness etc etc etc etc (which are what interest me personally).

manjit,

I'm a big fan of the consciousness aspects of the UFO phenomenon, as well as the abduction phenomenon. So, I'm not really a nuts-n-bolts guy at heart, though I don't dismiss the possibility it plays some role. However, have you read "Witness To Roswell"? This is the largest compilation of witness reports on Roswell ever compiled, I believe. I gotta say, after reading it, I couldn't help but think something nuts-n-bolts was going on there that just does not jive up with the official stories we've been sold. Just seemed like too many disparate witnesses converging on the same themes across multiple aspects of the Roswell event, to just shrug it all off
 
EthanT, don't do it dude, don't drag us into that rabbit hole...nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :D

No, I haven't read Witness to Roswell. I have absolutely no doubt it has lots and lots of very convincing testimony (much of which I've possibly heard elsewhere) which would certainly have me scratching my head.

To be honest, perhaps there was a tone of certainty in my post that isn't real. I really haven't got a clue what happened at Roswell. I've heard and seen so much utterly convincing arguments & info on both sides that my head is still spinning. Who the hell knows what happened! But I know what "feel" I get after years of hearing about it (not read ANY books on it though....as I say, I've always had this feeling that the real explanation for Roswell is not within my wheelhouse of fun areas to explore!.)

I'm not going to ask you to present any testimony from the book.....because that is one rabbit hole neither of us may ever emerge from! You say they don't "jive with the official version we've been sold". On that I can COMPLETELY agree! The official version (which one, there has been several over the years?) is almost certainly military disinformation.

Hey, did you ever watch Steven Greer's hours of videos called disclosure or some such? Hours of testimony from dozens of military, government and other respected people, extremely captivating and convincing.

But, personally, I think most of this specific aspect of UFOs that leans heavily into the nuts and bolts and denies the consciousness aspect (which the Roswell & Greer narrative does, in the main) can indeed be explained through a combination of psychology, black project tech, military disinformation, politics, lies & charlatanism & sociology.

I have absolutely no aversion to the idea real physical aliens have visited earth, it's just that I personally have seen absolutely nothing resembling evidence for it (not proof, EVIDENCE!), which wouldn't be a problem if we were dealing with nuts and bolts.
 
Steven Greer.... yeah, he has a rep somewhat as a self promoting con artist.

These career 'ufo researchers' have their own agendas, as does everyone, be they respectable in nature or totally fraudulent. Some may have started off sincere then gone off the rails or something, lol
 
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EthanT, don't do it dude, don't drag us into that rabbit hole...nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :D

No, I haven't read Witness to Roswell. I have absolutely no doubt it has lots and lots of very convincing testimony (much of which I've possibly heard elsewhere) which would certainly have me scratching my head.

To be honest, perhaps there was a tone of certainty in my post that isn't real. I really haven't got a clue what happened at Roswell. I've heard and seen so much utterly convincing arguments & info on both sides that my head is still spinning. Who the hell knows what happened! But I know what "feel" I get after years of hearing about it (not read ANY books on it though....as I say, I've always had this feeling that the real explanation for Roswell is not within my wheelhouse of fun areas to explore!.)

It is quite a rabbit hole! And, I can ensure you after reading some books on Roswell, they don't help, hehe. I'm still clueless as to what happened, with my head spinning

I always like the Pheonix Lights sighting, because it seems like you have a combo of the consciousness aspects and the nuts-n-bolts. Typically you just hear about the large black triangular craft "that block the stars" from Phoenix, pretty nuts-n-boltsy sounding stuff. But, not mentioned enough is that there are some reports where the black craft are accompanied by red orbs of light. These orbs of light relate to the plasma theories, which are much more strongly tied to the consciousness aspects of the UFO phenomenon.

SO, here's the funny thing. Andrew Collins and others hypothesize the plasma UFOs, orbs of light, etc, are actually terrestrial in origin! Yes, an advanced form of life, but terrestrial. So, them accompanying a black triangular solid nuts-n-bolts craft from who knows where would be ..... CONTACT! I mean, wouldn't it be funny if first contact with terrestrial beings (the ones that are actually advanced) has already happened, while all the homo-erectus boneheads are standing around not even knowing what's going on. That would sure put us in our place, lol.

Anyhow, nothing to take too seriously, just a funny thought, I think ;-)
 
EthanT, a little while ago, you recommended "Super Natural", and I am about half way through it - I'd love to hear some more of your thoughts about it.

Whitley Strieber - the author who has experienced contact events - comes across as probably mentally unbalanced, though I totally accept that it is hard to separate mental instability from sensitivity to ψ phenomena.

I wish Jeffrey Kripal' didn't play with words quite so much, but even so, he is thought provoking. At one point he seems to want to make a connection with the timelessness of a light beam - photons moving at the speed of light don't experience any time advancement according to SR - with the timelessness that so many people report in NDE's and spiritual phenomena. Do you have any thoughts on that?

David
 
Steven Greer.... yeah, he has a rep somewhat as a self promoting con artist.

These career 'ufo researchers' have their own agendas, as does everyone, be they respectable in nature or totally fraudulent. Some may have started off sincere then gone off the rails or something, lol

Greer creeps me out. Classic disinfo agent.
 
Greer creeps me out. Classic disinfo agent.

That last 'committee hearing' thing the ufo folks had is pretty embarrassing in that they hire (pay) four retired congresspersons to a act in a fake congressional hearing tableau, lol.

Linda Mouton Howe for example has become the mayor of crazytown.

Hey, I believe in ufo's and all the high strangeness stuff but the field itself is just rampant with fraud and hucksters. :D
 
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