Richard Cox, is 9/11 Deeply Spiritual? |428|

And to both your and TES' (and others') points re; the need to look at all angles, I'm totally fine with that too. It's necessary. My issue is that all of the potential alternate 911 scenarios were - quite appropriately - looked at; intensely looked at, by investigative entities. Were there explosives involved? Who were the terrorists? Who were they connected to?
The problem is that investigations carried out by government or by the bodies that are under suspicion, aren't always what they seem. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/08/uea-emails-inquiry-science

David
 
Investigations carried out by "independent researchers" aren't always what they seem either.
Right - but you see the point - just because something has been 'investigated' doesn't necessarily mean it has been investigated!
I believe that the stage was set to create One World governance by elitist multinational corporations and their front men in politics. I believe that this crowd hates Trump and Putin because those two won't dance to that tune. I believe that many in the US government/media complex conspired to take them both down
I basically agree, but maybe this discussion should go on in the Trump forum.

David
 
I personally think its cowardice of the worst kind, getting sombody else to do your dirty work,take an overdose, jump off a building or just
stop eating (how hard is that and it gives you time to consider things) but dont put your death onto somebody ealses conscious.
My wife was an oncology nurse and the doctors regularly killed patients by giving too much morphine, the terrible thing is the nurses are told to administer the meds. My wife was regularly in trouble for refusing to do this.

My father committed suicide at age 44 (1979) when I was 21 (I am 62 now). My father was an alcoholic who "sobered up" 4 years before his suicide. His wife (my step-mother) who he married when I was six years old had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer just one year before and died nine months later, three months before his suicide. Why I put "sobered up" in quotes is because though he had stopped drinking alcohol, the "doctors" had him on all sorts of pharmaceuticals for anxiety, depression, etc.

My mother told me she concluded my Dad was a coward. I think it was far more complicated than that. My father was also into some interesting "contract work." He was one of those that believed Jack Ruby was given cancer by the CIA - he told me this more than once. We are all from Dallas, my Dad lived here up until his death.

My Dad stopped doing "contract work" after he sobered up. My step-mother, before she was diagnosed, told me more than once she received threatening phone calls in relation to my father. She also told me how "the man on the phone" described to her where my sister went to boarding school (as if they were watching her) and described where I went to boarding school (opposite side of the country and as if they were watching me).

I want my Dad to be redeemed so I sometimes fantasize that perhaps why he did it was because he thought that maybe they might come for one of his kids next. If that is true (and I will likely never know), his suicide was not an act of a coward. My Mom didn't know most of those details and wouldn't have been open minded about any of them anyways.

I guess we all deal with things like this differently and in our own way. Sometimes the objective truth is never known to all parties and sometimes never known to any party.

I had to comment, apologies it was long.
 
I am asking, if this hate-America group is going to promote this discussion in a forum dedicated to inquiry, maturity and spiritual views of life, then you all need to up your game - or end this message and take it to another forum where attacking forum members for their national residence is part of the theme. Propaganda and purposefully insulting the nationality of your forum cohorts is a key sign of broach in spiritual integrity and is not appropriate for this forum.

There's some merit to your idea - I think we all need to life our game above polarising political polemics and stop assuming that any kind of political POV is a zero sum game. Political perceptions are hard to navigate at the best of times, but there is never an excuse to render a disagreement as cause for insult.

I do not agree there is a "hate-America group". There is a 'dislike some American attitudes' cohort that is not inclined to be spoken to rudely. We mostly tend to like Americans as people. We may have issues with policies and politics. I don't think it is unkind to let you know that we sometimes think the US is dangerous - and better treated with caution than affection. We have a very different worldview.

Also expressing a POV is not propaganda. You may be right in your assertion that what we who live elsewhere pick up about the US no more than media representations - but they are what is projected into the world. Hence there is a problem of claiming exceptionalism - on any level - and then projecting images that represent a quite unappealing and disturbing bunch of values.

Speaking of propaganda, the relentless machinery of US domestic propaganda seems to induce Americans to believe that the rest of us should see their nation in the same way they do. We don't. That's okay, from our perspective at least.

There is no intent to 'purposely insult the nationality' of anybody. There is an intent to challenge nationalism that seems to be shouted loudly, and rudely. That's not okay. Let's be done with this and move on.
 
North,
...So I am not without "conspiracy theories" myself. But I'm not insisting I'm right and I'm not ranting and raving about it as if it is the truth and you have to accept it.

Something you said:

It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me. It has to do with people from shrimpy countries not be appreciative of what the USA does for them.

Interesting adjective to use -- and indicative of a sense of superiority by virtue of size and relative power. To put things in perspective:

1570268391156.png

The Asian economic bloc of countries accounts for over a third of global GDP, 33.84 percent, representing the largest chunk of the world's economy. North America comes in at second with 27.95 percent of global GDP, and Europe third at 21.37 percent.

1570268529753.png

When it comes to shrimps, the collection known as Europe ain't doing that bad.

What exactly gives the US its conviction of righteous power?

1570269465370.png

Why would a country in North America, comparatively isolated from most of the rest of the world, need to spend as much as all the other major powers combined on defence? Are all those other major powers attacking it? Is the US spending on defence or offence? Is the US a thoroughly decent and upright nation, or a meddler interfering in the affairs of other countries? Teddy Rooseveldt advised: "speak softly and carry a big stick"; well, the US certainly carries a big stick, but does it speak softly?

Some Americans appear to have difficulty seeing how much of the rest of the world (the large majority by population, area and GDP) sees the US: as a bully filled with a sense of entitlement. Far be it from me to agree with Islamists over any issue, but they might have a point in seeing the US as the great shaitan, all the more so because it's so convinced of its own virtue.

Frankly, I don't know what to believe about conspiracy theories. Was 9/11 an inside job? It wouldn't surprise me -- this happened in a nation where just under 10% (4) of its presidents have been assassinated (compare only one British prime minister). It's also true that the US military has been responsible for a lot of civilian casualties in foreign countries: by some estimates, as many as 244,000 since 9/11. Since WW2, God alone knows how many civilians have died as a result of US military action -- in Korea and Vietnam for instance.

But maybe 9/11 wasn't an inside job. Maybe the US is more considerate of its own populace than it is of other nations. But in that case we'd have to overlook the way it imprisons, pro rata, more people than any other country:

1570272635810.png

We'd also have to overlook the way its health system fails to provide adequate cover for many millions of its own people. Not too much compassion there, methinks. And, have to overlook the disparities in wealth distribution, which are greater than in many other countries.

I could go on. Suffice it to say, things look very different to people outside the US. I accept that, were some other country as large and rich and powerful, it'd probably be at least as egregious in its dealings with the rest of the world; but the fact is, no country is its equal at the moment -- and to many, like it or lump it, it appears insufferably smug and self-congratulatory, not to mention ever so slightly hypocritical.
 
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There is no intent to 'purposely insult the nationality' of anybody. There is an intent to challenge nationalism that seems to be shouted loudly, and rudely. That's not okay. Let's be done with this and move on.

OK, done - but you must remember, I did not object to simple challenge to 'nationalism that seems to be shouted loudly'. This is a straw man framing of the context discussed.

One must be conscious of their words. There is objection and there is damnation (see the decades-festering polemic immediately above my post here). We are seeing the handiwork of the latter evolve inside international politics. ('One' and 'You' are addressed collectively here, and possibly exclusive of you Michael... so do not take personal offence).

Never fool yourself. Objection elicits discussion. Damnation elects Trumps.

I oppose Iran, but would never over-react about Iran in the manner conducted in the posts here, never frame its citizens in such a dark and misguided, propaganda-infused set of poor intent. Iran is a beautiful nation, with a rich deep past and wonderful character of people. But the US opposes their Mullahs' (Iran is a Theocracy) intent to destroy your nation as one of their eschatological targets (just in case you have not been informed of that little detail).

To wit, given the level of enthusiasm for 'global awareness' and 'nation-justice' implied loudly in this thread:

How many of you have studied the Re-construction of Iraq? What did you see occur there? Who "owns their oil" now and what do they use the margin proceeds for those crude oil sales for?​
Who supplies the oil and gas for the Balkan nations, how did this come about and what is the overall tax-to-sovereign debt labor burden placed upon on the workers in those nations. How did corruption play into this? Which ministers sit on Greek Islands on their yachts with some of this gain?​
How many of you were involved in the Jordanian refugee crisis? What was the makeup of the people in those camps and what timeframe did they have to flee inside? Who initiated this exodus (hint: it was not the US)?​
How many of you have done a famine strategy, and what was the actual cause of the famine in that region? What mechanisms are used to mitigate such shortfalls? Who actually caused the famine and why?​
How many of you were a part of the engagement team which countered the Ebola 2014 outbreak? What did you learn there?​
How many of you have worked with people in nations under Bush's PEPFAR revitalization programs? What was the response from the nations involved? How do they regard that program now? What are the historical reasons why infrastructure cannot be developed there (and who is exempt from those apparent barriers?)?​
How many of you have done an audit of US defense systems and evaluated their strategic role/mission, the deployment footprint and the cost of that footprint in terms of Command Control and Logistics? How did that compare to Russia Iran and China's audit of systems-roles? What did you learn in that audit?​
What is the mission difference between a missile, rocket, tank and a ship? Which are offensive/empire building and which are in-common defensive? Do you know the 'cost to maintain', ratio versus a 'cost to deploy?' How did the world learn these lessons? In what theatre of war? Who died as a result of its ignorance?​
What is the purpose of a one-and-done military asset, and who uses such assets globally? To what end?​
What is the impact of an 'open shipping lane' or 'straight' on human suffering?​
What is the diabetes rate in India or Kazakhstan? How does it compare between urban and traditional lifestyles?​
How many of you have done business with Russian, Chinese or Iranian companies - started global markets and surveyed the makeup of the grey and black markets which operate globally? What is their net effect in terms of UN monitored human suffering? Who operates these markets and through what mechanisms does that money flow? Who do they target for harm?​
Which nations in the world operate off of 40:1 leveraged bankshares, and what do they use that money for?​
How many of you have studied the most recent 8 national border conflicts globally? What was the impetus for each and who was the aggressor?​
How many of you have ranked and surveyed the debt ratio's of nations held at the World Bank/IMF. How is this sovereign debt shortfall addressed?​
If a suffering nation issues a grant of sovereign debt, who finances it and who opposes that financing globally?​
Which nations operate with the highest percent of mafia economics? How does a mafia differ from a cartel in their exchange of margin flows?​
Who provides the leveraged taxed labor to trade-instrument wrap and finance these initiatives?? In which countries do these laborers reside and how many days labor do they expend for this leveraging process to work?​
What is the difference between a sourcing economy, a raw materials economy and a demand economy - and who upon today's world stage seeks to exploit which for their military gain? Which economy makes for an artificial life-of-ease/high sovereign ceiling for its citizens and can delude them into thinking the rest of the world is just like them? (Hint, the US is not a raw materials economy).​
How many of you know the top 5 strategic threats as outlined by China, India, Turkey, Vietnam etc....??? (and no, they do not include the 'Bully-US')​
And it does not even have to be this stuff in particular - just, if you claim to have definitive final conclusions in these arenas, then perhaps you should actually know something about them - other than warmed-over agency regurgitation. Substantiate your claim that Americans are clueless/evil bullies, and that you are a member of the globally enlightened elite who know what is what...

If we are going to shift back to simple objection to nationalism as the context of this discussion now - I am all onboard for that, as I object to extreme nationalism as well.

But no more canned shtick please. I would encourage that we elevate the discussion above the level of Dr. Zolovitch's Childrens' hour on 1977 Soviet Central TV.
 
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Right - but you see the point - just because something has been 'investigated' doesn't necessarily mean it has been investigated!David

But do you see my point, which you're making for me?

You are suggesting that the entire US security and intelligence apparatus - which is what was involved in the 911 and related investigations - created a suspect report; maybe even a false report covering up some rogue element's involvement in the attack.

911 was taken very seriously by everyone as were its implications for the future security of the US. You're suggesting that the report was fudged and that all involved in creating it agreed to the fudging because - I guess - they were all in on the attack conspiracy or were somehow threatened to keep silent about the sinister things they uncovered. I'm saying that is absurd and you don't know what you're talking about.

I hate to always harp on this (I truly do - it gives me as a much of a headache as it probably gives everyone else). I'm trying to swing this from the usual debate to the spiritual side (and largely failing).

At some point you have to have faith in something. At some point you have to believe in something being good; not perfect, but in the balance good. If you're going to piss all over that, then you'd better have some damn good evidence; a damn good reason. If you don't you're going to become a cynical, depressed, angry person adrift in life. I have faith that someone involved in the investigation would become a whistle blower if there was a nefarious cover-up attempted.

Even more fundamentally, you have to learn to discern reality from lies and fantasy. IMO, you cannot spiritually grow to where you can trust your perceptions of higher matters until you've learned to trust your ability to discern. I guess we all decide what level of discernment is sufficient and right. Too many people never develop faith in their own ability and they follow an endless succession of gurus. I find conspiracy theories (as popularly defined) to be exhibits of low level of discernment ability as well as abdicating one's internal ability to think and feel to others. Why? Because unless you were there working on the report or are familiar with the workings of these aspects of govt, and you discovered a cover-up, you are just picking a narrative based on your innate unexamined psychological predilections.

I am not interested in what some "Deep Throat" type character allegedly told some Internet personality who "investigates" something like 911. People say all kinds of things. Some times these are deliberate lies and sometimes they are misunderstandings and fish stories. Sometimes people are telling the truth, but it is a truth based on their limited exposure or exposure to a single facet of a complex situation. Context is important. All of this gets bundled into stories that get repeated among the folk.

I am interested in the findings brought to the table by dozens - actually many more - of dedicated professionals with access to information and evidence and using scientific methods. I am interested in their findings which can be demonstrated and replicated.

I'm not interested in logical fallacies like, in hindsight, the US was wrong about the domino theory with regards to VN and therefore is bully and probably perpetrated 911 on its own people so as to have an excuse to do more bullying. Or Mk Ultra! so the entire US govt behind 911! If that's the level of discernment you want to operate at with regards to material maters, then I question everything you say. How can you development an understanding of a subject as subtle as life after death or psi?

IMO, at the end of the day, we are all living a myth; walking a path we co-create with the forces around us. I want to walk a path with heart that makes me strong. I find the endless paranoia involved in conspiracy theories that arises from a pervasive deep seated hatred and distrust of the structures of one's own society to be weakening to the spirit. If you decide the government is not to be trusted, fine. Then move on with your spiritual development. Why the endless harping on the various conspiracies? What purpose does that serve? How does it make you strong?
 
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I'm not interested in logical fallacies like, in hindsight, the US was wrong about the domino theory with regards to VN and therefore is bully and probably perpetrated 911 on its own people so as to have an excuse to do more bullying.
I can't speak for others, but I don't follow logical like that. I think we (UK is involved too) have to avoid doctrines like 'domino' because they can be used to justify anything. I think that Trump has it about right - threaten wrong doers like Iran, but don't attack first (at least other than as a last resort).

You have to acknowledge that that scale of the anti-Trump actions is breathtaking. All the main media except Fox News seem to be under some sort of compulsion to distort the news. That can't be achieved by a few men discussing the problem in the gents!

David
 
Regarding the connection between "spirituality" and things like 9/11 - at the 21:30 ish mark of the discussion between Richard and Alex -

Richard
"...and then the question becomes well, how deep does that rabbit hole go... are we going all the way into, you know, Illuminati type groups and connections with other worldly entities that are ultimately behind this..."

Alex
"How are we not, how are we not (going all the way into it)

Richard
"That's the inevitable thing I think that arises when we acknowledge ok... " and Richard points out other researchers who give rise a the possibility of validity to other worldly this or that, entities, energies, phenomena, etc... and then Richard mentions individual anecdotal experiences that inform the individual "something is going on," and it may appear unexplainable or, (and this is the point of my post), it fits within a paradigm we are a.) familiar with and b.) open minded to and that THIS is what sets the individual up to things like synchronicities (which I theorize is an aspect of the nature and science of being noting that I am not alone in holding this theory open).

And perhaps, if a collective or even the collective puts a substantial amount of "heart energy" (enthusiasm coupled with open mindedness) into something specific, the "reality" has a way of manifesting phenomena which those who recognize the arising of the phenomena, each to their own degree, interpret the phenomena and (for better or worse) draw conclusions about the phenomena and their interpretations of the phenomena which they then use to justify the paradigm(s) (grander realities) of which their are significantly emotionally and intellectually invested in.

In my opinion, this is how religions often begin or, if they already exist, are reinforced.

A phenomena may arise that is observed by one or a group. That one (or group) then interprets what s/he (or they) think they experienced. When its a group, generally a consensus is formed as to "what happened." It seems that always the conclusions either form a new paradigm or fir (and sometimes expand) an existing paradigm. And what seems true about the paradigm is that it has to be believable to the experiencer(s).

And so what I am suggesting is that in this vast universe within a possibility of infinite universes... but let's just stay with this one universe for a moment, we are individually and collectively an infinitesimally small manifestation of a containment of intelligence that has reached the level of intelligence we possess today which is an infinitesimally tiny blip in time of the currently theorized lifespan of this universe, isn't it possible that the phenomena that is arising and being interpreted might actually have a much more profound explanation than we can, at this stage of our intellectual development, fathom?

And then think about this. We already have evidence that leads to the possibility that that which we perceive, we, to some extent create. Don't read more into my statement than what I actually am trying to suggest. So I will clarify with this point. As Richard has done in other interviews, he has asked some bold questions of his interviewees but the questions are always framed within the paradigm the interviewee implies as the background paradigm within which they do their work. Richard is not alone as I am aware of UFO researchers that have learned to do the same. And the point I am making is this... in the case of Richard Dolan who has interviewed David Jacobs and Barbara Lamb. Both of these interviewees are known for their prowess with other worldly entity contact. And David Jacobs is certain these beings have the most horrific intentions whereas Barbara Lamb has a completely opposite view.

And so my question is... what if "that" which each of these two researchers have honed in on... is the same thing!

And that how it is perceived by the individuals with which David Jacobs has been attracted to regressing (Jacobs only works with folks who claim trauma from their experiences) results in his negative view and how it is perceived by the individuals that Barbara Lamb works with (and perhaps influenced by her commitment to "they are all GOOD") end up feeling their experiences provide them a deeply spiritually uplifting experience - what if the takeaway on a case by case basis has everything to do with the experiencer and that the phenomena itself is actually NOT the cause of the interpretation.

I must keep going here - For now, if the theory I propose may have some actual truth to it... when are we going to start looking deeper at what this phenomena may actually be? And that the appearance of the phenomena and/or its changes as to what we think we are experiencing over the time of the evolution of our (Earth humans I mean) current degree of intellectual capacity to absorb the phenomena, to interpret and assimilate these experiences within plausible paradigms?

When are we going to look deeply at ourselves to inquire what may be our own drivers? I know some of mine (because I have exhaustively looked). The biggest driver in my life appears to be a constant seeking of meaning and for meaning. I love the meaningful experience and I want to think I have some sort of purpose for "appearing" (at both my physical level and perhaps what one might call "my mind level of being" - soul, be there such). And I have been relentless and completely consumed by this search. If my theory (and I am not alone) is true that "I" play a direct and impactful role in the creation of that which manifests in my reality experience, then that also suggests I am responsible for that which arises (at least to some extent). And this (again, if true) explains the massive, profound, complex synchronicity experiences (and strings of experiences) I have had which also have increased in each of those areas only to be turned off when I chose so to do or when I am in the midst of fear.

And I think myself an expert on the phenomena of synchronicity to the point that I am comfortable in making the following statements.

It is wise not to interpret synchronicities as "signs from other worldly beings (Angels, Demons, EDs, etc) and/or "God." It is my opinion that the arisng of synchronicities is a function of the nature and science of being yet to be understood where it can be scientifically explained.

It is also wise not to conclude human level or otherworldly level conspiracies are consciously at play with things like the Back to the Future / 911 excellent complex synchronicity or the "Lone Gunman" / 911 synchronicity.

Do the odds that these synchronicities occurring (which are all but infinity to one) mean we shouldn't raise an eyebrow in wonder about them? To not do so means you either are not paying attention or you are firmly committed to the world views that believe these things are nothing but apophenia whereby anything like this is simply a random accident... but if one's eyebrows are raised enough and often enough, usually deeper explanations are sought and this is where the trouble can and does all too often begin. They are used to create and/or bolster a paradigm. And this is where conspiracy theory and spiritual explanations are one and the same IF... spiritual is limited by any paradigm that does not consider all possibility. I have learned the hardest of ways, I have yet to imagine all possibilities of all things but what I have also learned is that when I pay attention to the deepest aspects of my being (perhaps I best mean the psychological aspects of my own individuated being), I often discover that the things that I experience in my life, both materially impactful and imaginatively impactful seems to have an uncanny beneficail opportunity directly proportional to the lack of fear I feed into the experiences and the desire to gain something from the experiences at the level of my soul (be there such).

So in ending this monster post I likely wouldn't finish reading myself, I would bet most folks who read my last line would suggest that statement implies spirituality. I no longer like to use that word as its just too loaded with each individual's interpretation of what that word means. I have learned to live my life as an explorer of the nature and science of being where I am ever open minded to how I interpret what I experience and always staying open minded to reinterpreting all my previous experiences.

Two great quotes from Jacques Vallee -

Trust no one. Do not even trust what you see

Believe no one. Believe nothing
 
Regarding the connection between "spirituality" and things like 9/11 - at the 21:30 ish mark of the discussion between Richard and Alex -

Richard
"...and then the question becomes well, how deep does that rabbit hole go... are we going all the way into, you know, Illuminati type groups and connections with other worldly entities that are ultimately behind this..."

Alex
"How are we not, how are we not (going all the way into it)

Richard
"That's the inevitable thing I think that arises when we acknowledge ok... " and Richard points out other researchers who give rise a the possibility of validity to other worldly this or that, entities, energies, phenomena, etc... and then Richard mentions individual anecdotal experiences that inform the individual "something is going on," and it may appear unexplainable or, (and this is the point of my post), it fits within a paradigm we are a.) familiar with and b.) open minded to and that THIS is what sets the individual up to things like synchronicities (which I theorize is an aspect of the nature and science of being noting that I am not alone in holding this theory open).

And perhaps, if a collective or even the collective puts a substantial amount of "heart energy" (enthusiasm coupled with open mindedness) into something specific, the "reality" has a way of manifesting phenomena which those who recognize the arising of the phenomena, each to their own degree, interpret the phenomena and (for better or worse) draw conclusions about the phenomena and their interpretations of the phenomena which they then use to justify the paradigm(s) (grander realities) of which their are significantly emotionally and intellectually invested in.

In my opinion, this is how religions often begin or, if they already exist, are reinforced.

A phenomena may arise that is observed by one or a group. That one (or group) then interprets what s/he (or they) think they experienced. When its a group, generally a consensus is formed as to "what happened." It seems that always the conclusions either form a new paradigm or fir (and sometimes expand) an existing paradigm. And what seems true about the paradigm is that it has to be believable to the experiencer(s).

And so what I am suggesting is that in this vast universe within a possibility of infinite universes... but let's just stay with this one universe for a moment, we are individually and collectively an infinitesimally small manifestation of a containment of intelligence that has reached the level of intelligence we possess today which is an infinitesimally tiny blip in time of the currently theorized lifespan of this universe, isn't it possible that the phenomena that is arising and being interpreted might actually have a much more profound explanation than we can, at this stage of our intellectual development, fathom?

And then think about this. We already have evidence that leads to the possibility that that which we perceive, we, to some extent create. Don't read more into my statement than what I actually am trying to suggest. So I will clarify with this point. As Richard has done in other interviews, he has asked some bold questions of his interviewees but the questions are always framed within the paradigm the interviewee implies as the background paradigm within which they do their work. Richard is not alone as I am aware of UFO researchers that have learned to do the same. And the point I am making is this... in the case of Richard Dolan who has interviewed David Jacobs and Barbara Lamb. Both of these interviewees are known for their prowess with other worldly entity contact. And David Jacobs is certain these beings have the most horrific intentions whereas Barbara Lamb has a completely opposite view.

And so my question is... what if "that" which each of these two researchers have honed in on... is the same thing!

And that how it is perceived by the individuals with which David Jacobs has been attracted to regressing (Jacobs only works with folks who claim trauma from their experiences) results in his negative view and how it is perceived by the individuals that Barbara Lamb works with (and perhaps influenced by her commitment to "they are all GOOD") end up feeling their experiences provide them a deeply spiritually uplifting experience - what if the takeaway on a case by case basis has everything to do with the experiencer and that the phenomena itself is actually NOT the cause of the interpretation.

I must keep going here - For now, if the theory I propose may have some actual truth to it... when are we going to start looking deeper at what this phenomena may actually be? And that the appearance of the phenomena and/or its changes as to what we think we are experiencing over the time of the evolution of our (Earth humans I mean) current degree of intellectual capacity to absorb the phenomena, to interpret and assimilate these experiences within plausible paradigms?

When are we going to look deeply at ourselves to inquire what may be our own drivers? I know some of mine (because I have exhaustively looked). The biggest driver in my life appears to be a constant seeking of meaning and for meaning. I love the meaningful experience and I want to think I have some sort of purpose for "appearing" (at both my physical level and perhaps what one might call "my mind level of being" - soul, be there such). And I have been relentless and completely consumed by this search. If my theory (and I am not alone) is true that "I" play a direct and impactful role in the creation of that which manifests in my reality experience, then that also suggests I am responsible for that which arises (at least to some extent). And this (again, if true) explains the massive, profound, complex synchronicity experiences (and strings of experiences) I have had which also have increased in each of those areas only to be turned off when I chose so to do or when I am in the midst of fear.

And I think myself an expert on the phenomena of synchronicity to the point that I am comfortable in making the following statements.

It is wise not to interpret synchronicities as "signs from other worldly beings (Angels, Demons, EDs, etc) and/or "God." It is my opinion that the arisng of synchronicities is a function of the nature and science of being yet to be understood where it can be scientifically explained.

It is also wise not to conclude human level or otherworldly level conspiracies are consciously at play with things like the Back to the Future / 911 excellent complex synchronicity or the "Lone Gunman" / 911 synchronicity.

Do the odds that these synchronicities occurring (which are all but infinity to one) mean we shouldn't raise an eyebrow in wonder about them? To not do so means you either are not paying attention or you are firmly committed to the world views that believe these things are nothing but apophenia whereby anything like this is simply a random accident... but if one's eyebrows are raised enough and often enough, usually deeper explanations are sought and this is where the trouble can and does all too often begin. They are used to create and/or bolster a paradigm. And this is where conspiracy theory and spiritual explanations are one and the same IF... spiritual is limited by any paradigm that does not consider all possibility. I have learned the hardest of ways, I have yet to imagine all possibilities of all things but what I have also learned is that when I pay attention to the deepest aspects of my being (perhaps I best mean the psychological aspects of my own individuated being), I often discover that the things that I experience in my life, both materially impactful and imaginatively impactful seems to have an uncanny beneficail opportunity directly proportional to the lack of fear I feed into the experiences and the desire to gain something from the experiences at the level of my soul (be there such).

So in ending this monster post I likely wouldn't finish reading myself, I would bet most folks who read my last line would suggest that statement implies spirituality. I no longer like to use that word as its just too loaded with each individual's interpretation of what that word means. I have learned to live my life as an explorer of the nature and science of being where I am ever open minded to how I interpret what I experience and always staying open minded to reinterpreting all my previous experiences.

Two great quotes from Jacques Vallee -

Sam,
Great comment. I read it twice. I can relate to your various points. I think we're coming from the same place. Based on what you wrote, do you agree that people into these "conspiracy theories" are getting into a negative energetic feedback loop between their creative powers and the possibilities that exist in the infinite universe?
 
Sam,
Great comment. I read it twice. I can relate to your various points. I think we're coming from the same place. Based on what you wrote, do you agree that people into these "conspiracy theories" are getting into a negative energetic feedback loop between their creative powers and the possibilities that exist in the infinite universe?

My working theory is that it seems to be the predominant characteristic of human nature as it exists today (and for millennia perhaps) to view the world with an intensity that results in a deeply embedded "us / them" dynamic and so we experience (create?) all sorts of "experiences" that we then interpret as a conclusion that indeed I am me and you are you, we (our group) are "good" and they (another group or the rest) are... not so good, or at least not as good as us. We do this in friendly ways (like The Florida / Auburn game I just "sort of" watched while I wrote my post) or we do it in serious and deadly ways like wars and every way in between.

And the common denominator is identity and thus you have things like Advaita Vedanta (non duality) that serves as a possible solution (and in the view of my non-dualist friends), the only "real" reality. I get the argument and find myself falling back on it when I get into an inescapable "bad" situation... haha. I call my practice, "The practice of convenience, the practice of necessity."

So to get back to your question, here's the problem as I see it and I have to use my own experience as an example. I was born in 1957 and long before I was born, all sorts of plots, etc. had taken place involving various parties, some came to light and are recorded in history and likely some (maybe many) were never discovered to the degree it became historical record... and in many cases, history was "changed" by those who achieved power and the ability and morive to do so. And so I learned by the time I reached my teens that humans are capable of acting conspiratorially and found myself playing the role of the "target" (victim?) of a few and in all honesty, was more than once involved in a few. So the "practice" is undeniable. So because I am sure that most others have had experience with the practice, their mind is open to the possibility on various scales, even larger ones and even levels like 911 was an inside job.

And so then, what you suggest as a negative feedback loop really should be considered in light of human nature and the fact the practice does occur. But then I would add that what seems to be a capability of the human being (as we are today) is to somehow create or at least influence the "feedback" (or, as Dr. Surprise calls it - "the mirror") where experiences arise that we interpret in ways we then conclude to reinforce our desires (in cases such as this, our fears... even our worst most horrific fears). And so if the fears generate data like that, this then would generate even more similar data!

I am currently an adherent to the theory I am pointing to above. Part of the reason I currently hold this theory is because of an almost life long (54 year long) experience of truth, reasonable speculation, outlandish speculation and the experiences of absolutely impossible synchronicity events that finally blew apart (thankfully) just a few years ago. This single almost lifelong experience has created a result in how I operate with regards to all matters, especially the fantastical and other-worldly...

Never conclude anything, always stay ever open minded, keep an eye out that a deeper and deeper layer of dynamics may be at play, especially when it comes to the anomalous and/or "big time conspiratorial."
 
Back to Richard - this post...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...-deeply-spiritual-428.4415/page-2#post-134151

...is one of the best posts I ever read anywhere. I say this because the view Richard projects seems to me an example of advanced personal health.

This one statement -

We individually and collectively make superficial perceptions, then live in the prisons created by them.

That's a timeless statement - wow

Inwardly we misperceive our own identity, taking ourselves to be a stream of thoughts, as opposed to the consciousness in which those thoughts are arising. Remedying this through a process of inner looking could be labelled spirituality, as we are contacting our spirit or very essence.

Outwardly we are equally imprisoned by superficial perceptions of environmentalism, economics and terrorism etc. We buy into artificial narratives that bring about disastrous consequences. For me, the same kind of deep unflinching looking is required to go beyond the artificial and into the real. I could further suggest this is spiritual, as if the outer world is a reflection of the pure inner consciousness, to come into the truth of it is to perceive a reflection of the Mind of God.

Funny too (for me personally) this part of the post -

It's probably worth mentioning that the first spirituality book I ever read was also my first conspiracy book. It was David Icke's The Biggest Secret and I read it just after leaving school and just prior to September 11th, 2001.

My original "spiritual teacher" (Lady Lyn), traveled to the UK in early 2002. When she returned she handed me that same book, The Biggest Secret. She told me she was walking a path when someone in a hooded cloak approached her from the opposite direction and handed her the book. She told me that she knew the book was meant for me. The movie, the Matrix and that book changed my life... sent me down rabbit hole after rabbit hole. Kansas did go bye-bye.

I found Skeptiko in 2014. Alex's interviews, especially with Bernardo Kastrup, got my head out of the rabbit holes though the full process of extraction took until the fall of 2017. With feet back on the ground, I wonder if Lyn's version of how she received the book and "that it was meant for me" was the truth. Likely it was just words from a creative mind but I will never know and it no longer really matters because I no longer need a fantastical myth to validate myself or my experiences.
 
I am asking, if this hate-America group is going to promote this discussion in a forum dedicated to inquiry, maturity and spiritual views of life, then you all need to up your game - or end this message and take it to another forum where attacking forum members for their national residence is part of the theme. Propaganda and purposefully insulting the nationality of your forum cohorts is a key sign of broach in spiritual integrity and is not appropriate for
this forum.

You have an odd fixation on hatred. Tell me, is every critical word a hateful word? Is every discrimination an act of hatred?

Let's take it further: Is every deprivation an act of hatred? Is every act of war an act of hatred?

If so, then how much must America hate its native inhabitants? How much must it hate the inhabitants of those nations against which it has aggressed? And ought it not to be held to account for that?

Do you feel hated merely for your country being held to account?! Then how much more must America's victims feel hated for its crimes against them?

Legitimate criticism is not propaganda or insult. Propaganda and insult are evasion and denial of legitimate criticism. Spiritual integrity is owning legitimate criticism.

Have a little spiritual integrity.

And look to others on your side if you want to know from where the true attacks and insults come. The "group" is merely defending its own integrity by standing up to objectionable material being posted to the forum which it holds dear.
 
Substantiate your claim that Americans are clueless/evil bullies, and that you are a member of the globally enlightened elite who know what is what...

I made this claim? Come on TES! You are a deeply disciplined thinker. You know better than this.

Above the that quote you raised many compelling instances of why things are so complex and we presume we know at our peril. We may be obliged to make definite assertions at any time - but only to serve an immediate purpose, rather than make absolute statements. In other words we often make what seem to us to be rational statements to convey an emotional state.

We can state an experience and our interpretation of it. This is what I experienced and this is how I feel. That statement is not a description of an objective reality - just a subjective one. It has validity as that.

One of my friends has been trolling YouTube and has decided she hates Moslems. She has not said 'Based on what I have seen, and subject to verification, I have formed an opinion that I do not like some aspects of Islam, and some of those who practice it. No, she has said "I hate Mozzies!" To me that's an unreasoned and ill-disciplined conclusion - and I have told her so. She has a PhD and reminds of this often. That makes her claim so much more sloppy in my view. She should know better, and do better. It is another conclusion that bugs me, but the careless way she got to it/

You know that in this complex world moving from [some] information to a firm conclusion of fact is perilous, and maybe self-indulgent and arrogant. This isn especially so when then conclusion [stated as objective fact] is laden with moral outrage.

I hav remade two points persistently - and maybe not always with crystal clarity or emotional neutrality:
  1. Any POV expressed on the forum is open to challenge [politely of course].
  2. POVs are not a zero sum game - multiple contradictory ones can and must co-exist.
I am genuinely curious when I encounter a POV that is unfamiliar, or [for me] difficult to understand. I have no problem dealing with POVs that are alien to me - in fact I often shift my position, sometimes significantly, as a consequence of responses.

Far from being "a member of the globally enlightened elite who know what is what.." I was merely asserting that I am a member of a global community which has a different take on things. It is well, but differently, informed. It is biased toward our self-interest, and I am open about that. Its not a case of knowing "what is what", but it is a POV that has validity - if for no other reason than it is an interpretation of my/our experience. You [and others] may not agree with my [and others] opinion/s.

I/we are not going to be insulted for holding them. Disagree by all means, but do so politely and rationally - using reason and not invective. That's all.
 
Wormwood,
IMO, no WMD were planted in Iraq because, as I keep trying to explain, it is very difficult to pull off a conspiracy. Inspectors had been all over Iraq. Soldiers would have to plant the stuff where the inspectors hadn't been. The soldiers could talk about it. The Iraqis could complain and say that there had never been WMD wherever it was planted. Lower level conspirators themselves could talk about it. They could use it as leverage/blackmail over other conspirators.

It's one thing to get up in front of a camera and lie about WMD. When it's not found, you can enjoy plausible deniability. "Well our best intelligence said there was WMD". It's another thing entirely to plant large amounts of evidence, to blow up buildings and that sort of thing, involving teams of people that could spill the beans and/or hold it over you.

IMO, in addition to plausible deniability, the liars thought they would probably find at least some WMD - even if old - that they could hold up. A bit of a gamble. I think they were amazed that nothing but some old decayed chemicals were found.

There are a lot of America haters on Skeptiko. They believe a lot of crap and focus like a laser on the blemishes and warts. Very negative people. The conspiracy theories just reinforce the hatred that has been put in their heads and hearts. Mostly Brits and Aussies. I think it's like penis envy.

Eric we are not American haters. You just don't get it. We like rational and ethical Americans. Trust me, we are not envious of Americans we consider to be monstrous dicks. As I have said to you before, we view the US as a potentially dangerous influence in the world. That's not for you to judge, but take on board. Right at the moment your status is tanking, sinking like the evening sun. Now you may not like that - but you don't sit where we do and you don't see what we see - and being rude about it isn't going to change a thing.

Maybe its a good thing that the absurd conceit that the US is "the leader of the free world" is rapidly becoming a [not so] fond memory. Maybe its not unlike Brexit - we will not know until it is done. Perhaps a newly isolationist [America first] passion is a good thing for the rest of us too. Just happens that only the US and assorted tyrants agree - and the rest of us do not - for now. We would like the US to play in the same sandpit but not be such a borish dick - and maybe led by somebody not quite so mad [from our perspective].

You are entirely free to your opinion on this matter - but your venom should be focused on the passionate opponents you have in your own country and not expended on people who observe what you guys are up to with fascination and growing alarm. Your opinion of us does not matter at all. Our opinion of you does. You are armed to the teeth and dangerous - mercifully, for now, mostly to yourselves. And if you keep on your isolationist path that will simply intensify - and only Canada and Mexico will feel threatened - leaving the rest of us alone. Go for it!

Now this is a change in context of assertion. I agree that America is not the leader of the free world and that America First is not a valid policy. Many do not hold to an America, love it or leave it paradigm. Few here regard America's Vietnam miscall and the second foray (WMD) into Iraq as valid or representative of our proper role in the world. But some of these phrases you are critiquing only exist on TV and in the minds of New York and European journalists. They for the most part, are not positions which are held by most common Americans, but you would never get to hear this - so I understand.

I also do not take that you are contending that I have promoted such propaganda. I observe and work inside an American and a global community of trade markets, mercy organizations, governments and infrastructure developers who do not see the world in the manner which do you in that previous post. The original discussion was hatred of US Citizens, glee over the wholesale decline of the US and the suffering/oppression of its people - because they deserve it, and promotion of something even worse.

And as you say - One can attain some frayed ends over past harm and trauma - that is a given and a genuine statement - understood.

No one is here to push America as flawless - but that has not been what has been discussed to this point.

I am asking, if this hate-America group is going to promote this discussion in a forum dedicated to inquiry, maturity and spiritual views of life, then you all need to up your game - or end this message and take it to another forum where attacking forum members for their national residence is part of the theme. Propaganda and purposefully insulting the nationality of your forum cohorts is a key sign of broach in spiritual integrity and is not appropriate for this forum.

You have an odd fixation on hatred. Tell me, is every critical word a hateful word? Is every discrimination an act of hatred?

Let's take it further: Is every deprivation an act of hatred? Is every act of war an act of hatred?

If so, then how much must America hate its native inhabitants? How much must it hate the inhabitants of those nations against which it has aggressed? And ought it not to be held to account for that?

Do you feel hated merely for your country being held to account?! Then how much more must America's victims feel hated for its crimes against them?

Legitimate criticism is not propaganda or insult. Propaganda and insult are evasion and denial of legitimate criticism. Spiritual integrity is owning legitimate criticism.

Have a little spiritual integrity.

And look to others on your side if you want to know from where the true attacks and insults come. The "group" is merely defending its own integrity by standing up to objectionable material being posted to the forum which it holds dear.

Eric, TES... you misinterpret any well-deserved criticism of the American Empire - that is, of the ruling class (elite, Establishment, whatever you call them) - as a sign of the "hate of America", which is misguided. The anti-imperialists here (including me) has nothing against hundreds of millions of simple Americans - they are as much victims of pack of global predators which rules their country as anyone else (countless Americans who are being imprisioned and tormented by prison-industrial and psychiatry-industrial complexes can attest to it especially strongly and loudly). To their credit, many of them understand it, and publicly stand against it. Haven't you noticed that the harshest criticism of American Empire are coming from the Americans themselves? That the 9/11 Truth movement is first and foremost American phenomenon (even if it does have a lot of supporters abroad as well?). Would you dismiss all these American dissidents and radicals as "self-hating Americans", as Israeli propaganda does with the numerous Jewish critics of Isreal, labelling them "self-hating Jews"?

As I said several times already on this forum, there is nothing fundamentally evil in America as such: this is just the country that was unlucky enough to become an imperial hegemon of the modern times, and, therefore, also the largest current attractor and residence for the morally and intellectually impoverished status-seekers who tend to form the elite of any empire. Weren't these people the global rulers that they are, they were deserving pity rather than hatred, being deprived of the riches of ethical and epistemic reflexivity and expreience; they are essentially blind and deaf - psychically rather than somatically. Yet, with all the power, wealth and fame they have hoarded for themselves, and being unrestrained by any intellectual doubts or moral hesitations, they are a mortal threat to the whole world. In their unending quest to enrich, empower and glorify themselves even more than before each and every new day, they are destroying everyone and everything around them - from individual lives to the larger communities and the whole societies, and even to the very vital environment that we share with all other living beings.

Of course, American elites are not the only ones that are dangerous - all other societies also have to deal with the psychically blind-deaf people who tend to rise at the top positions in any hierarchical structure. And, were these societies - say, Russian or Chinese - the imperial hegemons, they would undoubtedly act as ugly as the American Empire; it is the Empire itself that is the source of global threat and demage, no matter what exact country plays the role of the current imperial center. And against the ill will of the Empire, in any its incarnation, the people must unite. In the current actuality that we encounter it is the America that is the imperial center; and this means that all good-willed people, including Americans themselves - especially Americans themselves! - should seek to liberate America itself and the whole world from the ruling clique of psychically blind-deaf types that seek to enslave Americans and non-Americans alike, locally and globally.
 
Being American and also being quite sentimental about that which I had grown up believing about the deeper heart of the idea of America, I understand how the people born into America and the people who came to America, settled in America have, admittedly, fostered a subtle (in that many of us are not much aware of it) yet powerful (in that the strength of the POV has impacted so much of my own life decisions) sense of superiority, especially moral superiority. And when that is so often imposed on others, both inside America but especially without, its hard not to understand the rising of resentment and from across the globe as well as those within who feel disenfranchised.

And there's a clue to this that is revealed in the above sentence. What clue? I used the term "America." Here's the explanation.

In 1996 (at age 39) I embarked on a business venture that took me out of the US for the first time in my life. This began an unexpected journey where I was fortunate to visit several different countries around the globe and not as some tourist and this continues even to this day. One of my stops was Costa Rica. Because I had learned it was important to make sure my behavior was in good form and comported with the local preferences by the very locals, I searched on the internet for "do's and don'ts for visitors from the US.

The one that struck me the most was this one... "If asked where are you from, don't reply, 'America.' Make sure you reply you are from the US."
Before I read the reason why I remember thinking, "weird... how silly."

Then I read further. "If you reply, America, you might receive the response, 'Me too... where in America are you from?.'" And then it was explained that often folks from Central America, South America and even Canada see themselves as Americans too and thus are insulted when someone from the US says. America, as if the US is America. It exposes "nation-centricity" and a lack of global awareness that leads many thinking folks from the US don't even care about the rest of the world.

Being from the US, I realized I had never thought about that. In fact, and this is not to shirk responsibility, but after doing a little research I realized growing up in a land that called itself America, despite the fact the whole western land mass of two continents and three named regions of North, South and Central were all "America," was something I innocently adopted and then carried with me in my early travels outside the US. But what struck me the most that day I read that piece of advice was the underlying arrogance I innocently projected.

And so, the above small example is meant to point to the thing I see as "the thing" some of the folks from the US carry and all too often, unknowingly... an underlying lack of global "court awareness" which is perceived as (and often actually is) arrogance. That so many in the global community outside of the US experience this, there is a magnification of outrage when the US as a global force wields its power, whether for what much of the world might perceive as "good" or "not so good."

I can't speak for others, but the athletes that have achieved great successes and appear to have mastered humility are my most favorites. They (for the most part) let their actions speak and they remain grateful for their experiences and humble about them. I can't imagine this same approach not being the best approach when it comes to being the "face of the United States" such as the President. But IMO the situation is far, far more complex than changing a president can repair, but still... it would be nice to have the leader guy not make it so difficult for a US born guy like me to travel in the world and/or post on a forum that reaches all parts of the globe. But that is just the beginning of what I believe folks from the US must grasp so that we can adjust, because the rest of the world cannot all be wrong about their criticisms of the US and many of us from the US.

Don't conclude I am not proud in many ways of my country, I am. But I also understand that my country has (and continues) to make lots of mistakes... well, at least that is my opinion. I also understand how the the global community for the most part sees the US. It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out.
 
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Don't conclude I am not proud in many ways of my country, I am. But I also understand that my country has (and continues) to make lots of mistakes... well, at least that is my opinion. I also understand how the the global community for the most part sees the US. It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out.

Thank you Sam, for a balanced and calm response. Criticism is not an attack. Being deaf and blind to how your friends hear and see you isn't a great strategy.
 
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