Mod+ 228. Mary Rodwell Advocates for Alien Contactees

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by alex.tsakiris, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    pls don't post in this thread. why don't you start a new thread on this "hypnotherapy doesn't even exit" in the Believers Versus Skeptics forum. Then start a conversation with me and point me to your new thread. (read all the 227 threads for more background on moderation)
     
  2. Pollux

    Pollux New

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    Free speculation on any subject can give rise to a new angle on a subject. Free speculation on the collection of experiences put together can further this process even more. If she had said; "-This is the truth because I say so" I would dismiss her. But if she say -This is what I think based on my experiences, but I don't know the full truth" I think it is OK. I don't see the harm in letting people express their experiences as long as they don't try to force them on you as the only truth.

    EDIT. I move my answer to the new thread if its started.
     
  3. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    It is clear that you haven't explored the phenomena at all or you would understand that the reports of the experience are numerous and that there are commonalities that presented themselves to the early researchers before any of their discoveries were published. It is rude and undignified to present their experiences as made up rubbish. We don't need to pin an answer on it, saying for certain that they are abducted by "aliens". But in the interest of understanding what appears to be an important phenomena, we need to listen carefully and keep an open mind.

    This is the kind of infantile talk that has no place on this forum at all.
     
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  4. Michael Dowling

    Michael Dowling New

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    Aw c'mon. "My mind isn't open" And yes, unless someone has actually studied QM then they should not be using it as a basis for their hypotheses. I have been listening to Skeptiko for many years now. And yes these people are experiencing something real. But it is inside their minds and probably not extraterrestrial.
     
  5. Jules

    Jules New

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    It bothers me how much of the thematic material in these experiences centres around violation and loss of control; loss of control over our physical bodies, our memory, our sexual boundaries, our reproductive capacity and hence our children, our planet, violation of our bodies, our experience of pain, our ability to be believed, our free will, our sense of what is true....
     
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  6. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    I think you would be right in saying that the events are taking place within the consciousness of those involved.
     
  7. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Quite a few people here, myself included, have studied and used QM. The reality exposed by QM is vastly different from the 'common sense' world we normally assume. Furthermore, QM can be accurately applied to systems containing very few particles, whereas our brains have over 20 orders of magnitude more particles. It is entirely possible that QM is not the last word in such complex systems. For example, it might be that although entangled systems can't exchange information in standard QM, some form of extension of QM might not be so restrictive.

    Conventional science simply ignores the anomalies that we like to discuss here - preferring to assume that every one of them is the result of some combination of fraud/incompetence/wishful thinking! This is really not the way that science should approach any subject, and indeed used not to be the case. For example, Sir William Crookes was well known for his interest in both science and the paranormal, as is the Nobel Prize winning physicist, Brian Josephson! Perhaps you should take up your criticism with him, since his prize related specifically to quantum mechanics!

    Those of us who post here are utterly sick of remarks about unicorns, and other puerile scoffing, and I know the moderators will only permit a few transgressions in this regard. If you want to discuss these matters seriously - though skeptically I assume - please bear this in mind!

    David
     
  8. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    Please excuse my denseness. What is the "LBL"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  9. Jules

    Jules New

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    I'm a bit wary of the deification of aliens. I am reminded of the Messiah skit from The Life of Brian. Maybe they're just "naughty boys." LOL

    For those who don't understand the reference watch this:




    And this is the forerunner...
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  10. bastaschs

    bastaschs Member

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    I realize that Alex's stated purpose in this show was to get the "abduction is mosly good" people together with the "abduction is mostly bad" people. But I really do not believe that alien abduction itself has been established, thus for me the idea of making peace between the two parties is by definition a secondary one.

    I am not a skeptic or a debunker, but to play Devil's Advocate, the skeps are correct in demanding evidence for alien abduction. Not even Whitley Strieber is convinced that his abductors were wholly or even in part alien, (he says he doesn't know-he only knows that "the visitors" are "real") - especially in his first, critical "initiatory" case, wherein he says he definitely saw two human beings in his room, one male, one female, and heard the male say, "Condition Red" - a situation highly suggestive of an all-too-human source. In addition, Strieber suspects he and other children suffered through a long-term period of child abuse conducted not by aliens, but by Black Ops and hidden government agencies, both on and off of military property. However, even with this purely human cause of purported abduction, there is still no hard proof. Only anecdote. Worse for "alien" abduction, with or without regressive hypnosis, whether or not in daylight with witnesses or nocturnally and alone, lack of evidence prevails.

    Because alien abduction has not been scientifically established, the main problem is to establish it as fact, before deciding if the phenomenon is positive or negative.

    Pertaining to scientific evidence, I am aware of none, except perhaps through the work of people like Dr. Roger Leir, who claims to have removed artificial implants from patients. But again, said objects have not been designed with a technological finesse beyond the military's darkest capabilities. Moreover, if Dr. Leir thinks he has definite proof that the implants he has removed are without doubt non-terrestrial, then surelly he would publish his findings in peer-reviewed scientific journals, a Great Debate would ensue, and, if found accurate, Dr. Leir's findings would change the face of science, society, and government. Obviously, this has not happened.

    Therefore I would suggest that researchers work their collective butts off to establish factualness, the single most important aspect of alien abduction: namely, its objective reality, whether Black Ops/hidden government or truly non-terrestrial contact. Minus proof of the phenomenon, all other talk is rather pointless, because it assumes abduction's reality - but assumes it without proof.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
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  11. Jules

    Jules New

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    I'm not sure Alex's stated purpose is as you state. And I don't know that anyone here has a firm opinion on the nature of the experience...we're here to explore. And listening to people's stories and what they have experienced is really important - I consider it ethnographic research. I think people who are the experiencers have something to tell us and we should listen. Listening to stories helps gives clues as to the range of possible explanations for what is happening. You want to know if its objective reality, but what does that mean? If its a mystical experience is that any less relevant or meaningful? Not to me. Does it provide less information about the nature of reality, no. It may even provide more. Before scientists start to create hypothesis and collect data we first need to have some idea of the possible scenarios at work here. I bring the perspective of being someone who has psychic experiences and I look for clues from that perspective as to what might be going on here. Its a different approach to yours but its still valid.

    Jules
     
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  12. bastaschs

    bastaschs Member

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    Jules wrote:
    "I'm not sure Alex's stated purpose is as you state".

    On the contrary - toward the end of the 'cast, Alex asked the guest if she'd like to enter into a collaborative effort with "negativist" Dr. Jacobs - in order to put the debate on a more convivial status.

    Jules wrote:
    "And I don't know that anyone here has a firm opinion on the nature of the experience...we're here to explore."

    The first principle of exploration, relative to alien abduction, is to establish its reality.
    If it's a purely subjective, "mystical" experience, it is no longer alien abduction - or any kind of abduction at all.
    It's simply an inner experience, a dream, a fantasy, a nightmare. Abduction - human or alien - must emerge into quantifiable, physical reality if it is to be established as fact.

    Jules wrote:
    "Before scientists start to create hypothesis and collect data we first need to have some idea of the possible scenarios at work here."

    Quite the contrary. Science proceeds from doubt and works from evidence. Interpretive analysis can logically only occur after the factuality - the objective reality - of the phenomenon has been firmly established. Alien abduction has not been so established.

    Jules wrote:
    "I bring the perspective of being someone who has psychic experiences and I look for clues from that perspective as to what might be going on here. Its a different approach to yours but its still valid."

    Maybe it's valid from your subjective standpoint, and perhaps from a psychoanalytic perspective. But iit is completely invalid from the standpoint of science. No amount of subjective, anecdotal testimony will ever constitute scientific evidence or proof.
    Saying, "I believe I was abducted by aliens but I have only a story to tell, and no quantifiable evidence to support my claim whatsoever" is, from a scientific standpoint, no more evidential than a fairy tale - even if the experience really happened. The claim can only be authenticated by provision of hard evidence.

    Therefore, your support for the "we are here to explore claim" is permissible, but you're claiming more than that. You are trying to equate types of subjective events, e.g., your own subjective ("psychic") experiences, as having the same validity as a real-external-world occurrence - namely physical abductions of physical bodies by physical aliens who perform physical surgery on humans' physical bodies. Subjective anecdotes cannot establish abduction's physical reality.

    You can claim that abductions, like psychic experiences, are purely subjective, but then please be aware that you have wholly disqualified all evidence for, even all possibility of, the physical abductions/surgeries/implants "alien abduction". In this regard, I brought up Dr. Leir's failure to establish authenticity for his implant-removals. That you ignored this point is quite consistent with your apparent disavowal of any abduction reality besides the psychic-subjective.
     
  13. Jules

    Jules New

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    I'm at a loss to understand the purpose for you being here (from your point of view). I'm not going to persuade you and you're not going to persuade me because we believe in different truths. I feel okay about that. If you don't think its relevant or meaningful to come to the forum and have a discussion about people's stories, then don't do it. Do something that is meaningful to you.

    The basic tenant of my position can be found in my signature line. It is one I'm committed to.

    Jules
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
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  14. bastaschs

    bastaschs Member

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    I see you have not replied to any of my points. Instead you present your "loss to understand the purpose for [me] being here". Is that all you can come up with? I shouldn't dignify your comments with a reply, but to quote you, I'm here to explore. And when I say "explore", I mean scientifically and objectively.
     
  15. Reece

    Reece Member

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    I don't think she's trying to "come up with something" or that she should have to "respond to your points," personally, because this has been going on for decades and many have grappled with this elusive stuff to no avail . . . and you're showing up and asking a random poster on Sketpiko - which rightly questions the scientific and cultural status quo - to answer questions that no other honest researcher/questioner has been able to answer.

    Rather, since you're such the "scientific and objective explorer," why don't you explore the phenomena and get back with us on whether it's physical, psychical, a combination of both, the result of interdimensional contact, or complete illusion? I'm sure you can cut through to the heart of truth after endless failed attempts, right?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
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  16. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    Haha, that's right. The first abduction movie I have ever seen is that one :eek: When I later read the real case report I was flabbergasted... damn you Hollywood producers! :)
     
  17. bastaschs

    bastaschs Member

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    Sarcasm, first? Off to a great start, Reece.

    And you're off-topic enough that you can't see the issue: a claim of psychic experience can only be publicly shared if the psychic has the means to make the experience available to others (through trance, meditation, whatever).

    The other issue that you are ignoring, deliberately or not, is that claims of physical alien abduction can only be publicly shared if the claimant can support the claim with verifiable physical evidence.

    Those "decades of failed attempts" could end tomorrow if hard evidence of alien abduction can be provided. You can float over this issue like a phantasmic but irrelevant cloud, but you won't come close to contributing anything positive to the discussion. Apparently you don't believe in "tomorrow", and see science as mired in some kind of leaden circularity. I differ.
     
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  18. Reece

    Reece Member

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    I gather you expect everyone should start from square one on whether or not this is "really" going on, right?

    It's secondary - contraire to what you say - whether or not it's physical or psychical . . .
     
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  19. Reece

    Reece Member

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    And I don't think it's totally out of bounds to ask you to provide/do some research of your own, especially since you jump in on the attack with Jules while claiming you're here to "explore" . . . I mean, if you're really wanting to explore, I'd think the place to begin wouldn't be a random comment on an online (moderated) forum, but rather some real "wheels meet the road" research, right?
     
  20. Jules

    Jules New

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    I don't need you to dignify my comments. They are dignified all by themselves.

    Good luck with your searching.

    Jules
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013

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