Mod+ 238. WHY SKEPTICS ARE WRONG… ABOUT PSYCHICS & MEDIUMS

#61
That Dean Radin, a parapsychologist keeps running experiments that are not accepted by scientists, probably means there's nothing to it, and certainly does not constitute 'positive evidence'.
If they are in mainstream journals then that's a pretty good example of acceptance that something is happening, and besides, not accepting doesn't make it false. You are a prime example. And besides, you haven't actually read any of the papers and you are already making a snap judgement.

Journalists? Who would give them any credibility for anything?
I never mentioned journalists, either you misread or you were trying to goad.

The Nobel Committee looks at all sorts of stuff that I don't, so there's no catch-22.
To be honest, the nobel committee thing is a non-sequitor, again wether they accept it or not does not negate positive evidence, and again to reiterate, you haven't actually looked at it. You've gone, these people don't accept it, I won't bother. You call yourself a free thinker but you let others do it for you.

Sure, I'm biased, in favor of reality. I don't mind if people like to think things, feel things, make up things, etc. but it's different is they say it's true. Like the guy who says he met or talked to the holy ghost; I sure he believes it, but not even other christians do. If you though accept his anecdote though, I don't mind, just don't try to say ghosts are real.
Nice bit of self congratulatory intellectual masturbation there, With a subtle demeaning of people.
 
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#62
If they are in mainstream journals then that's a pretty good example of acceptance that something is happening, and besides, not accepting doesn't make it false.
Not to mention that Radin actually runs very few experiments himself, and spends quite a bit more time talking with people who actually run them and giving presentations. I would say his efforts to make knowledge of other studies being done is far more valuable than what he actually studies himself.
 
#63
Not to mention that Radin actually runs very few experiments himself, and spends quite a bit more time talking with people who actually run them and giving presentations. I would say his efforts to make knowledge of other studies being done is far more valuable than what he actually studies himself.
Indeed, but I somehow don't think we're going to change his or her mind, because they haven't bothered to engage with literature.
 
#64
You're committing the false logic of comparing two unlike things, a particle in the natural world, with a supernatural concept(you're done that before, ignored the false logic, and did it again). Science can, and did deal with the particle, but science makes no pretence about testing the existence of ghosts or anything else supernatural.
Ghosts and Higgs fields are alike in the following way: they are both invisible, hard to detect, and they produce a phenomena from an invisible source

I know of no methodology can can detect ghosts, or fairies, or leprachauns, or devils, or incubus, or succubus.
Therefore you couldn't detect them if they did exist. One of the episodes of The Haunted had a paranormal investigator who was bitten on the scene of an exorcism. Something followed him home. Then he started having dreams about a beautiful woman. Than those dreams became violent. It turned out to be a succubus demon. There was actual video footage of phenomena, objects being moved across the night stand.
Also, you can't know that the Higgs particle will never lead to a new technology; no scientist makes that assumption, and it's irrelevant.
OK name a potential technology that will come from the Higgs field.
Nor would the proven existence of ghosts necessarily prove an afterlife. It could be there are ghosts, but NOT any aftertlife. Their's might be a separate existence, not that of dead humans.
There are psychics who have received names of the haunting ghost; the origin of the ghost is traced back to a person who once lived. While there have been demonic entities who have masqueraded as someone who once lived by fooling an EVP device, most psychics can tell that the spirit entity is misrepresenting itself.
 
#65
Also since scientists have no idea, literally NO IDEA, how to produce consciousness outside of the brain, nor even how to define it, then there is little chance that consciousness can be explained in terms of materialism. Here, try this: consciousness is a phenomena that can experience pain and pleasure. Since no materialist can ever re-create this phenomena, even as a thought experiment, then materialism must be an incomplete description of reality.

In fact, it is more likely that some day in the future, some mad scientist will be able to trap a spirit like they did in Ghost Busters. There is a device called the Ovilus that permits a spirit a vocabulary of words that the spirit can chose from to communicate. Since spirits can interact with the right kind of electronics, there may come a day when mad scientists can create an interface for a spirit, trap it in a robot, and use pain and pleasure to motivate that "haunted robot" to be an obedient servant. Although I think that some would call it a form of necromancy or even techno-necromancy.
 
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#67
Also since scientists have no idea, literally NO IDEA, how to produce consciousness outside of the brain, nor even how to define it, then there is little chance that consciousness can be explained in terms of materialism. Here, try this: consciousness is a phenomena that can experience pain and pleasure. Since no materialist can ever re-create this phenomena, even as a thought experiment, then materialism must be an incomplete description of reality.

In fact, it is more likely that some day in the future, some mad scientist will be able to trap a spirit like they did in Ghost Busters. There is a device called the Ovilus that permits a spirit a vocabulary of words that the spirit can chose from to communicate. Since spirits can interact with the right kind of electronics, there may come a day when mad scientists can create an interface for a spirit, trap it in a robot, and use pain and pleasure to motivate that "haunted robot" to be an obedient servant. Although I think that some would call it a form of necromancy or even techno-necromancy.
Sure and not scientists has ever made that claim, so you're arguing with yourself.
People CAN do a thought experiment about experiencing pain an pleasure, they do it all the time.
Some computer scientists figure that they might be able to create consciousness in computers..
 
#68
C'mon atheist! I've dis-proven materialism as a complete description of reality!
You haven't dis-prove 'materialism' at all. In fact it seems that different people on this forum have different definitions of materialism.
I've discovered one guy who doesn't even believe that the elements on the periodic table exist. That wasn't you was it?
 
#69
Ghosts and Higgs fields are alike in the following way: they are both invisible, hard to detect, and they produce a phenomena from an invisible source


Therefore you couldn't detect them if they did exist. One of the episodes of The Haunted had a paranormal investigator who was bitten on the scene of an exorcism. Something followed him home. Then he started having dreams about a beautiful woman. Than those dreams became violent. It turned out to be a succubus demon. There was actual video footage of phenomena, objects being moved across the night stand.

OK name a potential technology that will come from the Higgs field.

There are psychics who have received names of the haunting ghost; the origin of the ghost is traced back to a person who once lived. While there have been demonic entities who have masqueraded as someone who once lived by fooling an EVP device, most psychics can tell that the spirit entity is misrepresenting itself.
You are still using false logic, ghost are supernatural, and the higgs is reality, you can't compare them.
Imagine if I said the ghosts and also the aztec gods are invisible, thus they have a lot in common. Wait a minute, YOU might even accept that.
That I know of no way to test for ghosts does NOT mean that I couldn't detect them IF they did; false logic again by you.

Anecdotes about succubus demons are NOT evidence that they exist.

You seem to be the only one of this forum that supports the existence of ghosts and succubus, etc.
 
#70
You are still using false logic, ghost are supernatural, and the higgs is reality, you can't compare them.
Imagine if I said the ghosts and also the aztec gods are invisible, thus they have a lot in common. Wait a minute, YOU might even accept that.
That I know of no way to test for ghosts does NOT mean that I couldn't detect them IF they did; false logic again by you.

Anecdotes about succubus demons are NOT evidence that they exist.

You seem to be the only one of this forum that supports the existence of ghosts and succubus, etc.
I'm just not sensing any reasonableness in your hardened position. You viewpoint can't be changed by scientific evidence of any kind. Otherwise, if you were an openminded scientist, you would be willing to allow the National Science Foundation to give funding to ghost hunters and paranormal investigators so that they can buy better equipment. A lot of their time is used up staring at hundreds of hours of video and audio. I believe there is MPEG equipment that can scan for anomalies and changes from frame to frame. If you were a sincere scientific mind, you would agree that such equipment could greatly aid such investigators in finding paranormal anomalies.

If you were sincere and honest and open minded in your opinion, you would want there to be research into the area, using equipment and test methods that quantify, as well as qualify, the research data.

Instead, what I find are a bunch of atheist-skeptics who routinely ignore data and testimonial because it threatens your world view. People like you feel a feeling of certainty when death is the end. What could be more final than death of consciousness. So it gives you peace that your consciousness will die. Unfortunately for your position, there is so much evidence to the contrary that the atheist-skeptical position is largely considered irrational. Most people are on the fence and are just waiting for some juicy evidence before they will believe.
 
#71
I'm just not sensing any reasonableness in your hardened position. You viewpoint can't be changed by scientific evidence of any kind. Otherwise, if you were an openminded scientist, you would be willing to allow the National Science Foundation to give funding to ghost hunters and paranormal investigators so that they can buy better equipment. A lot of their time is used up staring at hundreds of hours of video and audio. I believe there is MPEG equipment that can scan for anomalies and changes from frame to frame. If you were a sincere scientific mind, you would agree that such equipment could greatly aid such investigators in finding paranormal anomalies.

If you were sincere and honest and open minded in your opinion, you would want there to be research into the area, using equipment and test methods that quantify, as well as qualify, the research data.

Instead, what I find are a bunch of atheist-skeptics who routinely ignore data and testimonial because it threatens your world view. People like you feel a feeling of certainty when death is the end. What could be more final than death of consciousness. So it gives you peace that your consciousness will die. Unfortunately for your position, there is so much evidence to the contrary that the atheist-skeptical position is largely considered irrational. Most people are on the fence and are just waiting for some juicy evidence before they will believe.

Let's see if I've got this right, you say it's not reasonable to say that ghosts are supernatural and the Higgs is real, is that right? Talk about irrational!

My viewpoint WAS changed by science re Higgs but not re ghosts. Last year I knew that people have been predicting the Higgs for some decades, but it had not been proven so I didn't accept it. Last year it was proven, nobody, not the chinese or japanses or russians or Smithsonian Institute or anybody denies that it was proven. So they changed my mind, and this one example alone rebuts your argument.

I don't approve of the gov. wasting our money on ghost busters research, or anything else supernatural, but I don't mind if you spend your own money. Then, if you ever prove even one ghost exists, I'll promise to support you on this forum. How's that for an offer?

Thanks for the amateur psychlogizing, but sorry, you are the irrational one. There is no evidence of anything supernatural, only bogus claims. Anecdotes are not evidence, anomalies are not evidence, wishful thinking is not evidence, the ghost-busters movie is not evidence, wanting an afterlife isn't evidence.
 
#72
Let's see if I've got this right, you say it's not reasonable to say that ghosts are supernatural and the Higgs is real, is that right? Talk about irrational!
It was the non-physical quality of the Higgs field that gave me permission to posit that nature expresses itself as particles and fields. Quantum fields are so non-physical that the scientific community isn't sure if they are part of reality.

Since I don't throw out millions of data points the way skeptic-atheists do, I wanted to take another look at the paranormal. Particularly ghosts and demons. I find there is sufficient evidence to justify funding for experienced ghost hunters, to pay for equipment that will assist their research. But what if it were privately funded? Then would you agree with me that a closer more careful search is warranted. Or do you still wave your hand and dismiss the evidence? I think you're too close minded to support any such research.

My viewpoint WAS changed by science re Higgs but not re ghosts. Last year I knew that people have been predicting the Higgs for some decades, but it had not been proven so I didn't accept it. Last year it was proven, nobody, not the chinese or japanses or russians or Smithsonian Institute or anybody denies that it was proven. So they changed my mind, and this one example alone rebuts your argument.

I don't approve of the gov. wasting our money on ghost busters research, or anything else supernatural, but I don't mind if you spend your own money. Then, if you ever prove even one ghost exists, I'll promise to support you on this forum. How's that for an offer?
I remember taxpayers getting upset at the "government waste" when they were trying to build a supercollider in Texas back in the 80's. So is the issue for you that it's about money? Parapsychological research is fine for you as long as you don't have to pay for it? Is it about money? What if sufficient evidence (proof) of the afterlife led to lower health care costs, lower mental health care costs? Then would it be worth it?

Thanks for the amateur psychlogizing, but sorry, you are the irrational one. There is no evidence of anything supernatural, only bogus claims. Anecdotes are not evidence, anomalies are not evidence, wishful thinking is not evidence, the ghost-busters movie is not evidence, wanting an afterlife isn't evidence.
There is plenty of video and first hand accounts to warrant a closer look. The truth is, the uncaused causal nature of the big bang, wave-functions, Higgs field, dark matter, the physics constants and the space-time continuum are all examples of phenomena caused by something we can't detect (or that is exceedingly difficult to detect). Then there are all of these reports and first accounts of encounters with ghosts and spirits. I don't think it's rational to ignore them. In fact, I think you and the other atheist skeptics are irrational for ignoring them and throwing out data. You should be wanting a more careful investigation. You should be wanting better methods and protocols that give spirits more incentive to cooperate and to produce phenomena for us. Anything less would be irrational.
 
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