Mod+ 255. IAN MCCORMACK’S EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN NEAR-DEATH EXPEIENCE

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by alex.tsakiris, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. bishop

    bishop Member

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    A person does that.

    The flower blooms.

    I thought NDE's were a direct line to the source itself? And does source not have a purpose? Who would believe that? Then it's no different than "cosmos", right?
     
  2. anonymous

    anonymous Member

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    At what point is the thing that issues forth from the source no longer the source itself? Does source have a cosmic anus? There is source and then there are the droppings of source and that is what? Where does source end and that that is from source begin?
     
  3. bishop

    bishop Member

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    Cosmic anus, and source droppings. Pretty strong.

    Ok. What is an NDE and what do you think is happening when someone has one?
     
  4. anonymous

    anonymous Member

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    See post #143 in this thread.
     
  5. bishop

    bishop Member

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    To what?
     
  6. anonymous

    anonymous Member

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    I would say that the "soul" is returning to what is essentially a non-physical existence. That is really a simplification. I don't really think there is anything less "physical" about the "where". It is likely more like waking up from one dream into another.
     
  7. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    That's an interesting point. Many of the purported communicators via mediums indicate that their existance is at least as 'real ' as it was here. In fact, so similar that many don't realise they are no longer physically alive.
     
  8. bishop

    bishop Member

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    So ok, we have these different existences. But there is no "intent" behind the existences themselves. Is that what you mean? So in other words, when someone has an NDE and reports a feeling of unconditional love towards them, there is not something actually doing the loving.
     
  9. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Well Lusikka's link was to something that was already 7 years in the past, and I didn't get much further.

    I said he embellished his account because he seemed to have merged it into Fundamentalist Christianity - it was hard to know where the NDE stopped and his understanding of Christianity began. For example, he referred to Lucifer appearing as a being of light and I don't think that came out of his NDE.

    Like you (I think) I agree thee is a real mystery about what NDE's are telling us. It would be interesting to see some statistics, though, because my impression is that the majority are joyous, exciting experiences.

    NDE's affect people deeply, and I guess some of them may just send people ricocheting off the deep end!

    David
     
  10. We don't know if there's anyone out there doing the loving, just like we don't know why different people are given a Hell/Heaven tour and then given different ways to escape damnation and achieve salvation.

    But, assuming NDEs happen to mind-not-brain, in the normal course of your life if you found out that the same person gave you and your friend different instructions on how to ace a job interview, get a girl or guy's number, and so on...wouldn't you think you'd been had?
     
  11. bishop

    bishop Member

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    Well, I see two options. There is something sending/emitting that love (such as a cosmic anus), or it is self generated and possibly illusory. Is love worth something without a participant? If it turns out NDErs are just experiencing a love generated by (and towards) themselves, does it not lose some of its power?

    I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks.
     
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  12. Love isn't spatially extended, as far as we know, so "anus" seems like a weird metaphorical device. Do you think of your love of people in this world as a bodily emission?

    Anyway, it could also be God, or some other entity, expressing that love.

    There are people in different parts of the world who've received NDEs wherein they go to Hell, go to Heaven, and are then told how to avoid the former and achieve the latter. For Ian it was Jesus (apparently), for others it's different (Pure Land Buddhism, following the Dharma, etc). If there really was one way to get to Paradise, why would NDEs be contradictory?

    Seems to me this is plausibly a deception, though whether it's an outside entity or a deception made by one's internal state/expectation is harder to know.
     
  13. bishop

    bishop Member

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    No, I was following Anonymous on that, who coined the term "cosmic anus".
    Maybe the cosmic anus droppings are love.

    I agree that it could. I will also freely admit I do not experience god.

    Yes, this opens a can of worms. Because anyone who will deny an NDEr who has experienced something specific like Jesus must have some way to differentiate a true NDE from a false one. False being one that is overtly tainted with bias, for example. I find the sentiment "his NDE isn't as good because of the inclusion of Jesus, who as a character is mired in a historic and political morass" to be somewhat hypocritical, because almost all NDE's are based upon the singular experience and memory of the individual. If you can criticize one, you can criticize them all with the same justification. Unless of course you have evidence that the person is lying or is mistaken, and good luck proving that.

    Again, I see a couple mix and match options.
    1. Ian is telling it as is, and the cosmos (god, source, anus) is sending mixed messages, with the objective intent to do so
    2. Ian is telling it as is, and the cosmos has no objective intent (no inherent purpose), and it's the wild west. We are simply a part of it, and our experiences are oriented around the individual for (as of now) inexplicable reasons.
    3. Ian is lying or is mistaken, and we have no idea what he experienced.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
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  14. Pepe Silvia

    Pepe Silvia New

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    [/quote][/quote]

    I'd tend to lean towards something along the lines of #2, but I don't really agree with the whole "no purpose" thing
     
  15. Good stuff. Makes me wonder if the Gnostics are on to something...
     
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  16. bishop

    bishop Member

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    Hi Pepe Silvia. I lean towards that too, but I have trouble sometimes understanding how something could have inherent purpose without also having been set into motion with intent. Unless, of course, the purpose we're talking about is created by beings like ourselves, as an extension of cosmos.
     
  17. Pepe Silvia

    Pepe Silvia New

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    I like to think of us (as in the entirety of existence) as a sort of necessary reference point for God/Source/The All. I feel that without the creation, the creator wouldn't be able to have awareness in any real sense because there's nothing to be aware of. Other than simply existing, the problem of purpose gets muddy for me, and I feel that any other purpose is self imposed. In short, God doesn't care what you do, He/She's just glad we're all around.
     
  18. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    So you'd prefer there should be just a single answer. The one true religion. That sounds like it's getting close to the fundamentalism which causes so much destruction.

    If I asked someone for help or advice, I'd hope they would consider me, my circumstances, my needs. Rather than just read from a script, that would be the sort of advice I'd rather do without.
     
  19. Oh, I don't think there is such a thing as an Answer. My point was that if we're considering NDEs as paranormal events, and IF the historical record can show that NDEs influence the convergence of different civilizations toward Heaven/Hell, the contradictory nature of the NDEs influencing history suggests someone or something wants history to go a certain way.

    It's not necessarily sinister - if you're trying to get uplifted apes to understand morality and become a global society you'd probably need to start with something like the fear of damnation and unifying salvation-based religions.

    What we need on this show is a historian of NDEs across the globe.
     
  20. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    In almost all NDE reports we have learned that consciousness carries with it a developed 'self' identity into this other realm. That would presuppose the mind-brain connection is in some way still intact. Dr. Mary Neal (famous NDEer) reported self reflecting on how she was still Dr. Mary Neal complete with her dispassionate personality to rationalize her predicament of having no body and being able to see her rescue as well as everything else, including conversing with spirit beings. This appears to be true with most other NDEers except Dr Eben Alexander who claimed he suffered amnesia, but still had quite a colorful experience with a female spirit guide and other beings. It is a subjective experience and appears to vary as wildly as our individual personalities, but we already know that.

    I think the philosophical question of whether the self is real or is an illusion is pertinent to the reality of the NDE because beings encountered on the other side, from angels to deceased family members also appear to have self identities and subjective understandings of this other realm, at least from the viewpoint of the NDEer. So where is the objective reality? Could there be layers of clarity?
    At least here, we have the one layer. The material universe with its empirical knowledge base.
    In Ian's NDE case he was able to give shape, context and meaning to his experience after he had it, or while he was having it, which is apparent viewing his earlier and later video taped recollections. It reminds me of seeing a movie then reading the novel it was adapted from. This inevitably causes me to superimpose the movie characters into my minds imagination when reading the novel.
    So the underpinnings of belief and bias can affect our perceptions of what we assume are objective observations in this life and it appears so in the next. You don't get the whole truth unless you take it with you.
     

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