Mod+ 255. IAN MCCORMACK’S EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN NEAR-DEATH EXPEIENCE

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#41
Glad I am no longer moved or influenced by these childish threats (Bible or Hell) as I attempt to mature spiritually, and deepen, share and understand what love I have been blessed with in my life.
Fully agree. Separate from the question of whether Jesus or another religious figure appears or not, to me NDEs that involve a message like that are a clear sign (to me) that at least some NDEs are the (partial) product of a still-all-too-human consciousness. (Although I'll reiterate that, going to McCormack's actual account, his NDE may have been less reductive than his interpretation of it.) It's psychologically puerile and reduces the complexities and richness of human life (never mind beyond-human life!) to... well, something reductive (sorry, my writing skills are failing me :D).
 
#42
If there are any individuals incarnated on Earth at the present time on a similar spiritual level to Jesus, none of us have heard of them.

therefore, anyone who has a NDE is most certainly Not going to be in contact with Jesus , or any other very advanced soul.

Why ? - because we are no different a moment after we pass on , to what we were a moment before.
I believe the real question is do we need a Jesus?
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#43
I believe the real question is do we need a Jesus?
Yes, given what Jesus signifies. Or some people do need Jesus. There's definitely a need to seek out redemption for some - even when the circumstances might be justified (think soldiers, police officers). I don't think this necessarily needs an external accountability to a third party ("sin"), one could see it as a transcendental Being who knows you and loves you despite your mistakes.

Given the history of Christianity, and how it's intertwined into various positive forces, I think it'd be a shame to throw out baby Jesus with the reactionary bathwater. Same with all the other faiths coming to us from the past - not clear why we'd need wholesale rejection, or if that would even be possible?
 

Ian Gordon

Ninshub
Member
#44
Compare McCormack's NDE to Christian Andreason's NDE, which also features Jesus and hell, not for "truth value", just to contrast the spirit of the message.
8. What were you shown about Christ, as being the Son of God?
I think it is very important to start off by saying that I fully saw and understood that we are ALL the children of God. Each and every one of us plays a vital role on this planet. No one is seen as insignificant or is unloved. I understood that to be called a son or daughter of God, means that you have matured fully in all the ways of LOVE. Jesus IS the great leader for all the Sons and Daughters of God, especially those who follow the Christian faith. It was made very clear to me that Jesus does not want anyone bowing down to him and being subservient. In fact, what Christ truly wants us to feel is that we are worthy to walk right beside him. Only through our agreement to walk beside Christ can there be any real progress made in our lives and in the world.

4. What about hell?
There is a place called "the Death Shadowed Valley," where some Souls may CHOOSE (my capitalizing) to go to if they feel too afraid, guilty or shameful to approach Heaven or God. This is an in-between place or dimension that separates Souls from this world and the next. ...And as I have discussed before ... being caught in this type of situation is a very difficult process to endure and can cause problems for both the living and the dead. However each of us has the ability to call out to God or to Christ ... and immediately ... we will be taken home to Heaven. Or we (the living) can pray and call out to God to send his Angels to come and take others home. It is important for us to understand that we each send ourselves to the places our Soul believes it most belongs. We do that now here on planet Earth. Those stuck in addiction, lust, bitterness and hate -- these are the ones truly in hell. But the moment we choose Love, we can get ourselves out. God never sends us anywhere we do not wish to stay. We have totally misunderstood the concept of hell on this planet.

I do know of a place in the deep regions of the Realm where I saw great caverns of electrical blue fire. However, I understood that this place was for the purpose of Loving purification. God would never send his precious creatures to a place to be burned or harmed. It is completely contrary to our Creator's nature.
http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#45
Compare McCormack's NDE to Christian Andreason's NDE, which also features Jesus and hell, not for "truth value", just to contrast the spirit of the message.

http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html
Interesting stuff Ian. My understanding is this sort of NDE may have had some influence on the Church adopting Purgatory?

Are there NDE historians who've tracked this sort of thing? I always assumed NDEs were largely disconnected from religious movements but that link I posted earlier noted they actually had some impact if not major significance.

Just seems like this phenomenon has examined from the science side by many, but there's still whole anthropological/historical side out there I've heard little about. Maybe it's just me though...
 
#46
Jacob's Ladder (1990)
Quotes
Louis: Eckhart saw Hell too. He said: The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
And this is what Hell is. A place to help purifying the soul nothing more. And this appears in all monotheistic religions by the way.
The way out of Hell is to let go of the things of this early life and go on to a bigger plane of existence.

Re this guy's account, I am really suspicious and I think the religious aspect he tried to blanket over his experience got the best of it.

I recall the NDE of a French lady (for those who speak French her name is Nicole Dron, go and check her story out), she said that she went to Heaven and in a nutshell here is what she heard
- We've already lived forever and we will live forever
- Reincarnation does not happen but is not forced onto souls that cannot take it
- There is no such thing as I or the other person it's we

and from the religious perspective here's why it becomes interesting
- she was told that Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad were working on the regeneration of Earth
- Christ would come back but she wasn't told in which particular form

What is interesting is that, from what I recall, she's of a catholic background and back when she had her experience, in the 80's I think, Islam and Buddhism weren't really big or spoken much about in France.

At the end of the day, the experience happens but as humans, people try to filter out whatever they are not comfortable with. Only a few don't.
 
#47
I believe the real question is do we need a Jesus?
In what way ?

The point I was trying to make is that unless we ourselves are on a certain spiritual level * , we will only encounter other spirits off that same, or nearly same level, after passing on ( or during NDE ). ( In my fathers house are many mansions )
It is different here on the Earth . We mix with all kinds, better and worse. Teachers, and those we teach (consciously and unconsciously).

I have no doubt Jesus was and is a real being . There have always been advanced souls who return and help out.

* spiritual level - only meaning relative level of 'goodness' , for want of a hopefully, less ambiguous word.
 
#48
That was a good interview, but I'm having more and more doubts regarding NDErs writting books about their experience. Seems like there's a market going wild over that very topic since Proof of Heaven by E.Alexander and his million dollars succes. I don't intend to put in question an author or another about his honesty, but I now have an uneasy feeling about the NDE=book thing...
 
#49
That was a good interview, but I'm having more and more doubts regarding NDErs writting books about their experience. Seems like there's a market going wild over that very topic since Proof of Heaven by E.Alexander and his million dollars succes. I don't intend to put in question an author or another about his honesty, but I now have an uneasy feeling about the NDE=book thing...
I think McCormacks book was released before Alexander's.

As they say bad publicity is still publicity. If we want the medias to talk about it we need people's attention. Maybe they'll invite the likes of Greyson on mainstream media. We just need to get the ball rolling.
 
#50
As they say bad publicity is still publicity.
& seeds will be sown in people's minds, which will bear fruit, if not now, then in the future.

After all , something has to counter all the disinformation that the pseudo-skeptics seem to have no problem disseminating.

I suppose.

:)
 
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#51
What do you make of the strangeness of NDE accounts?

I'd tentatively posit that all NDEs are relative to the mindset of the experiencer....

NDEs are what they are: they're all strange in the sense that most of us have never experienced anything like them, but if we're to accept they are significant, we have no choice but to entertain the phenomenological descriptions of those who have had them. Whilst many descriptions might fit within the broad hump of the bell curve of a normal distribution, some might appear as outliers on the tails. The distribution of numbers just gives us a distribution of numbers; it doesn't tell us anything about the underlying truth we might all experience when irrevocably dead: this might be something different from all the descriptions.
I agree, each NDE or OBE is an event and should be treated as a data point. Each one has features that can be assigned to field records. A database of the phenomenon needs to be carefully garnered. Now is the time for the work of good data gathering and for searching the data for patterns! Without patterned events, processes cannot be delineated. Without verifiable data behind an analysis from a "process point of view", the subjective discussion taking place makes for incoherence.

Underlying Truth - is a little steep on the curve. How about a finding a structural relation or two first?
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#52
Underlying Truth - is a little steep on the curve. How about a finding a structural relation or two first?
So long as we recognize patterns in NDE visions could just be commonalities in particular delusions/deceptions enacted by the Archons of Gnosticism or our own baggage.

Or, as some traditions posit, Heavens and Hells are both traps we have to push past.
 
#53
Jesus and God love us like a spiritual parent. Some people feel close to their parents, sometimes they don't. But if Maccormack gets a big hug from our spiritual parent for "being there", it's no reason to go to pieces. It's OK Alex. God loves you even if you don't call.
 
#54
So long as we recognize patterns in NDE visions could just be commonalities in particular delusions/deceptions enacted by the Archons of Gnosticism or our own baggage.

Or, as some traditions posit, Heavens and Hells are both traps we have to push past.
Right. And while we are cataloging the features of the NDE and trying to understand their underlying ontology. Maybe we could do the same for the experience of love, the experience of truth, etc. I don't think we have any real understanding of those experiences either.
 
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#55
So long as we recognize patterns in NDE visions could just be commonalities in particular delusions/deceptions enacted by the Archons of Gnosticism or our own baggage.

Or, as some traditions posit, Heavens and Hells are both traps we have to push past.
My point, gently proffered, is to look for objectiveness in the data. X % see a personal history flash by, Y % see greeters who connect them to the new environment, Z % see a Spiritual Sun, etc......

Archons, Gnostics, personal "baggage", heavens, hells and christ consciousness are all non-starters for being a process analysis context, let alone content.
 
#56
Right. And while we are cataloging the features of the NDE and trying to understand their underlying ontology. Maybe we could do the same for the experience of love, the experience of truth, etc. I don't think we have any real understanding of why those experiences either.
But in my frame of reference; it is not why anything. I think there is a lot of in-depth work on how truth conditions are understood. I think there is a depth of work on many types of love, including physical manuals, as well as process models for altruistic charity on large scales. We have these "hows" from collecting facts and analyzing them.

I think you were just demeaning NDE's by connecting them to glittering generalities. They are specific events in reality.
 
#57
I am deeply disappointed that what is supposed to be a very joyous and wonderful experience of the afterlife has become twisted. Either there are Christians who want to force a relationship with God, or there are scientific-skeptics who want to analyze love from the hereafter until it destroys it. Do you skeptic-atheists do that with your mothers? With your wives? When they kiss you and give you love, do you freak out and over analyze it?
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#59
My point, gently proffered, is to look for objectiveness in the data. X % see a personal history flash by, Y % see greeters who connect them to the new environment, Z % see a Spiritual Sun, etc......

Archons, Gnostics, personal "baggage", heavens, hells and christ consciousness are all non-starters for being a process analysis context, let alone content.
Honest question -> What's the end goal for this data collection?
 
#60
So long as we recognize patterns in NDE visions could just be commonalities in particular delusions/deceptions enacted by the Archons of Gnosticism or our own baggage.

Or, as some traditions posit, Heavens and Hells are both traps we have to push past.
This kind of reminds me of the idea of Focus 24-26 or the belief system territories thought up by Bob Monroe or consensus realities brought up by William Buhlman and Bruce Moen. The idea is essentially every cultural afterlife exists in some form "over there" and depending on the belief system you're following in life, you'll find yourself in a reality that aligns to those beliefs and there will be other people there that also had said belief system. While these areas, such as one of the various heavens, are wonderful in their own rights, they are also quite constricting because of the limits of the belief system. All of these authors recommend transcending the belief systems and instead focusing on following the underlying themes that unite them in order to, as Bob put it, maintain the escape velocity to shoot past the belief system territories into the higher realms.
 
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