Mod+ 255. IAN MCCORMACK’S EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN NEAR-DEATH EXPEIENCE

From chapter 11 of The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain:

For as much as a year Satan continued these visits, but at last he came less often, and then for a long time he did not come at all. This always made me lonely and melancholy. I felt that he was losing interest in our tiny world and might at any time abandon his visits entirely. When one day he finally came to me I was overjoyed, but only for a little while. He had come to say good-by, he told me, and for the last time. He had investigations and undertakings in other corners of the universe, he said, that would keep him busy for a longer period than I could wait for his return.

"And you are going away, and will not come back any more?"

"Yes," he said. "We have comraded long together, and it has been pleasant--pleasant for both; but I must go now, and we shall not see each other any more."

"In this life, Satan, but in another? We shall meet in another, surely?"

Then, all tranquilly and soberly, he made the strange answer, "There is no other."

A subtle influence blew upon my spirit from his, bringing with it a vague, dim, but blessed and hopeful feeling that the incredible words might be true--even must be true.

"Have you never suspected this, Theodor?"

"No. How could I? But if it can only be true--"

"It is true."

A gust of thankfulness rose in my breast, but a doubt checked it before it could issue in words, and I said, "But--but--we have seen that future life--seen it in its actuality, and so--"

"It was a vision--it had no existence."

I could hardly breathe for the great hope that was struggling in me. "A vision? --a vi--"

"Life itself is only a vision, a dream."

It was electrical. By God! I had had that very thought a thousand times in my musings!

"Nothing exists; all is a dream. God--man--the world--the sun, the moon, the wilderness of stars--a dream, all a dream; they have no existence. Nothing exists save empty space--and you!"

"I!"

"And you are not you--you have no body, no blood, no bones, you are but a thought. I myself have no existence; I am but a dream--your dream, creature of your imagination. In a moment you will have realized this, then you will banish me from your visions and I shall dissolve into the nothingness out of which you made me....

"I am perishing already--I am failing--I am passing away. In a little while you will be alone in shoreless space, to wander its limitless solitudes without friend or comrade forever--for you will remain a thought, the only existent thought, and by your nature inextinguishable, indestructible. But I, your poor servant, have revealed you to yourself and set you free. Dream other dreams, and better!

"Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago--centuries, ages, eons, ago! --for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities. Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane--like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell--mouths mercy and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!...

"You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks--in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognized them earlier.

"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream--a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought--a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"

He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realized, that all he had said was true.
 
That is actually where my thoughts started much earlier in the evening yesterday when I began to write. I still want to communicate my ideas about that, but there is much to do inside "this old house" today. Autumn deepens and my window restoration project stands incomplete.

Short answer is that the "other side" as you put it is absolute, unchanging and apparently eternal, although I don't know how anyone can know that last part. There can be no chaos and nothing to hammer when there is no thing. Is there any doubt that this "side" is the chaotic, malleable mess?

But that isn't where I wanted to go yesterday. I want to say this in a nutshell (but I don't have time to do it properly now):

1. Humans that abide in an awareness of the non-dual nature of reality have undergone a radical transformation. Alchemy is the best metaphor we have I think for the process. The end result, if the process is "complete", is irreversible and undeniable in its effects on the entity previously known as X. Unlike the NDE, whose initial experience is fleeting and which occurs when the physical body and "soul" are in the most extreme of circumstances, the experience of those who abide with non-dual awareness is on-going, in most cases until the death of the body. This is not to deny that the lives of some NDE experiencers are not transformed following the event.

2. The message issuing across the eons from those who have shared a radical abidance in the non-dual nature of reality is remarkably consistent and continues to this day in contemporary awakened individuals. And this message is one that issues by its nature from being, rather than cogitation, from immediate expression rather than conceptualization. There may exist a misconception that the "message" coming forth from those abiding in the non-dual nature of reality are opinions or are metaphysical speculation. In fact they are, in the best cases, likely as close a reflection of the true nature of reality that we can have from the human vehicle.

So, in my opinion, many who hope for whatever reason that the universe operates on some principle of love and light, cling to the messages from NDEs or chosen encounters with mediums, etc. That's fine and is in fact a reflection of one aspect of reality, albeit the aspect that is forever changing, where no thing can possibly last.

Anyone can easily pop this balloon by pointing out the madness of some Osho or other. That is fine. I don't have time to do this properly and quite frankly I don't have the energy or interest this AM.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman

I think you are on the right track.
 
From U. G. Krishnamurti:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti

We have strange ideas in the religious field—torture this body, sleep on nails, control, deny things—all kinds of funny things. What for? Why deny certain things? I don't know. What is the difference between a man going to a bar for a glass of beer, and a man going to a temple and repeating the name of Rama? I don't see any basic difference... I am not against escapes, but whether you escape through this avenue or that avenue, an escape is an escape. You are escaping from yourself... What you do or do not do does not matter at all. Your practice of holiness, your practice of virtue—that is socially valuable for the society, but that has nothing to do with this.


People call me an enlightened man. I detest that term. They can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for the sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God.


I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize—that's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize—and you say to yourself, "What the hell have I been doing all of my life?!" That blasts you.

Your constant utilization of thought to give continuity to your separate self is 'you'. There is nothing there inside you other than that.

The holy men are all phonies—they are telling me only what is there in the books. That I can read—'Do the same again and again'—that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are trying to share an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far as experience goes, for me there is no difference between the religious experience and the sex experience or any other experience; the religious experience is like any other experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am not interested in experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. They might help others but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing more of the same; what I have done is enough.

You see, people usually imagine that so-called enlightenment, self-realization, God-realization or what you will (I don't like to use these words) is something ecstatic, that you will be permanently happy, in a blissful state all the time—these are the images they have of those people... There's no relationship at all between the image you have of that and what actually is the situation... That's why I very often tell people, "If I could give you some glimpse of what this is all about, you wouldn't touch this with a barge pole, a ten foot pole." You would run away from this because this is not what you want. What you want does not exist, you see.

There is no religious content, no mystical overtones at all, in what I am saying. Man has to be saved from the saviors of mankind! The religious people—they kidded themselves and fooled the whole of mankind. Throw them out!

Understanding is a state of being where the question isn't there any more; there is nothing there that says, "Now I understand!"—that's the basic difficulty between us. By understanding what I am saying, you are not going to get anywhere.

Bravo! and can anyone tell me the difference between intellectual knowledge and realization. Because we can shout it from the rooftops and it doesn't help us realize it. The self is as sticky as wet shit. :D
 
Bravo! and can anyone tell me the difference between intellectual knowledge and realization. Because we can shout it from the rooftops and it doesn't help us realize it. The self is as sticky as wet shit. :D

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 
What do mean by the word "truth?" Why would anybody assume that word even means anything? To me, it's self-evident that it doesn't. But that's me. I don't think people need to come to a consensus on these things, because I don't believe in that either. I think it's best to live your life and not think about those things. Unless it's entertaining. But I wouldn't search for truth because you're never going to find it, and you wouldn't even know it if you did.

"You lied to her."

"No. I told her a Story."

"Shit! You sound just like your dad."

"Actually I was thinking of something...my mother said. That most times, the truth is like a close-up conjuring trick. You can look straight at something and think you're seeing the truth of it. But really, you're seeing what someone else wants you to see. So FUCK the truth. We don't know where it is, and we probably won't know it when we see it. She just chose the story she needs right now.

The story that keeps her standing. That's probably all any of us get to do."

-the Unwritten # 17: The Many Lives of Lizzie Hexam
 
sure. I'm just saying that this mismatch seems odd... makes me little uneasy/leery.
With McCormack I agree with you, but the anonymous friend I was mentioning. However, I don't know McCormack personally. For all I know he is a saint in his private life, regardless how he comes across in interviews. As an example, I recently discovered the writing of Christopher Hitchens thanks to a book my wife bought recently. All I knew about him previously was his strong atheist stance on religion and the paranormal, which I strongly disagree with. However, his positions on the threat of militant Islam seemed motivated by natural moral revulsion at the actions taken by terrorists. Moreover, he was (I thought) reasonable in his analysis of the problem. I mention this as an illustration how a position in one domain should not be characterized as representative of the quality (moral or otherwise) of other positions.

AP
 
Telling people about your NDE shouldn't be about telling them how to live their life. These experiences are truly personal, and I think the real value is that if you share an NDE, then it makes it easier for the next person to share their experience too, whatever that experience may be. After a while, more people will be able to listen to their own inner voice because it won't be so nuts to do so.
 
Sorry for mistaking you for FDR set's new avatar last week. I thought it was a pretty funny wind up, if you see what I mean, a man called Judith. I'm English,
lapsed Catholic and we find men called Judith quite amusing because of their rarity. You see quite a lot in England now but not too many of those. But that's your son, isn't it ?
Yes, my younger son (he is 41 and was born on my 30th birthday).
 
To be invested in these questions reveals a problem. And taking it further only elevates the problem. Why should anybody care? Why can't life just be about experience itself? To desire it to be more than that is indicative of a problem. Namely fear (as alluded to in a previous post). Then we create gods, and heavens and hells and start fighting over who's delusions are more correct...
But why should all this matter, if it's all just maya? And isn't what you're criticizing as an investment just another experience to be had? Come on, FDRS, be consistent! ;)
 
In the West, whether one is a Christian or not likely has little bearing on whether one sees Christ during the NDE. No one living in the West, or likely on Earth is unfamiliar with the gist of the Christian narrative. Just as it is nearly impossible not to think of a pink elephant when reading how difficult it is not to think of a pink elephant, it likely is nearly impossible for even the most atheistic "soul" when newly departed from the body not to consider, if only for an instant all kinds of themes related to religion.

Hmm. What have been the NDE's of people who followed non-traditional spiritual paths in the West? [New Age/Buddhist/neo-pagan/etc.] Do they see Yeshua, or someone/something else?
 
Hmm. What have been the NDE's of people who followed non-traditional spiritual paths in the West? [New Age/Buddhist/neo-pagan/etc.] Do they see Yeshua, or someone/something else?
NDE's can be quite varied, although there does seem to be a general theme of death starting with separation from the body, and then returning to the body - often against a person's will! Here is a whole collection of NDE accounts:

http://iands.org/home.html

David
 
The experience is by its nature one of reintegration, of returning, even one might say, of home-coming, and as such is likely not a reflection so much of the entire nature of our existence within non-physical reality as much as the experience of a radical transition, while still in the very process of that transition. And so, in my opinion, the narrative of the NDE gives us a view of the transition into the non-physical, more than it provides us with an overview of the enduring existence of the non-physical entity following bodily death. In other words the NDE might be rather more like the plane ride to San Francisco, than it is like residing in San Francisco for a period of one's life.

An eloquent and memorable post, my friend: in places lyrical. I think you've nailed a conclusion that a number of us are increasingly coming to.
 
What makes you so sure it's only an illusion? Maybe the other side is a malleable, chaotic mess?

Thing is, Sciborg, I find that very hard to reconcile with the fact that life on this side exhibits such exquisite orderliness and precision: that which Bernardo Kastrup puts down to the appearance of processes occurring in "mind-at-large". Plainly, a putative MAL is capable of regularity in on our side: why then not on the other side? How come this regularity can emerge out of a chaotic mess?

I like Anonymous' memorable image of being in transition on a flight to San Francisco. Maybe it's a flight from London, and maybe the plane has to turn back because of the weather over the Atlantic. Maybe we tarry in London a while before catching another flight. We're all wondering what San Francisco is like, and maybe we've made the flight a thousand times, recalled by some as NDEs, not recalled by others who've reincarnated. If only we had more than the language of London and flights over the Atlantic to speculate about San Francisco...
 
What do mean by the word "truth?" Why would anybody assume that word even means anything? To me, it's self-evident that it doesn't. But that's me. I don't think people need to come to a consensus on these things, because I don't believe in that either. I think it's best to live your life and not think about those things. Unless it's entertaining. But I wouldn't search for truth because you're never going to find it, and you wouldn't even know it if you did.

It might depend on whom "you" refers to. Maybe not the egoic or "transitional" selves, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a true self being able to find it, and to know it had done so.
 
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I mention this as an illustration how a position in one domain should not be characterized as representative of the quality (moral or otherwise) of other positions.

Well said. It applies to everyone, I think, even suicide bombers. Realising and accepting that is perhaps what the word "forgiveness" really means: we have no capacity or authority to forgive, only to understand and be able to put ourselves in the position of an other, where but for the grace of God...(as they say). At moments like that, the idea of other can sometimes dim, and fleetingly, even disappear.
 
Thing is, Sciborg, I find that very hard to reconcile with the fact that life on this side exhibits such exquisite orderliness and precision: that which Bernardo Kastrup puts down to the appearance of processes occurring in "mind-at-large". Plainly, a putative MAL is capable of regularity in on our side: why then not on the other side? How come this regularity can emerge out of a chaotic mess?

I like Anonymous' memorable image of being in transition on a flight to San Francisco. Maybe it's a flight from London, and maybe the plane has to turn back because of the weather over the Atlantic. Maybe we tarry in London a while before catching another flight. We're all wondering what San Francisco is like, and maybe we've made the flight a thousand times, recalled by some as NDEs, not recalled by others who've reincarnated. If only we had more than the language of London and flights over the Atlantic to speculate about San Francisco...

Oh, I didn't mean a kind of primordial Chaos - I mean more that there are varied realms and which one you fall into is at least partially based on chance as well as the competition between varied powers.

But I wouldn't extract from our reality's regularities to assumed lawfulness on the other side. After all, what makes the incoherence of QM resolve into a seemingly classical world remains a mystery.

It just seems to me that even dissolution of self into Brahman is hardly a sure thing. MAL could be insane, and Its madness is the fracturing of Itself into individuals within Its own Dream-of-Everything. I don't know if I'd be that disappointed to find myself in an afterlife as ungoverned & imperfect as this existence, given I'm not convinced by the idea that dissolution of self into Brahman - or for that matter unification with God - is equivalent to transcendence.

I think these both might be deceptions or misinterpretations, assuming there's anything at all to be unified with.
 
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