Nice points about the false dichotomy Don. Clearly Scientific "practice" at it's most fundamental & Alchemy/Magic/Ritual are all just sides/permutations of the ancient rite of "dialoguing with nature". The main difference is that the hardline "secular" practitioners of modern scientific mysticism (including such vaunted anti-philosophers as Hawking & L. Krauss) are in a ridiculous amount of denial about what they're doing and "who they are"; it's both hilarious & tragic at the same time, for everyone involved.
I think Prigogine spoke rather eloquently on the subject of "dialoguing with nature" in his classic work Order out of Chaos (though it does mostly focus on elucidating the differences between Newtonian vs. General Systems perspectives).
Great points, John! Yeah, Prigogine was pretty cool, even if he was a materialist. At least he respectfully acknowledged other views . People like Krauss are, IMO, simply degenerate. I've been reading Herman Weyl. He's not super famous, but he is perhaps the most important person in 20th century physics. He invented the math that is behind the standard model of particle physics. That puts him ahead of people like Weinberg who used Weyl's math to formulate the standard model. People like Krauss are nowhere to be found on this level of intellect.
Weyl is a trip. Every other word out of his mouth is "God". He wrote an essay
The Open World. I strongly recommend you check it out if you have never seen it before. He actually puts Nicholas of Cusa WAAAAY up on a pedestal. I mention Nicholas and link to his book in
Experience. Anyone who thinks Nicholas of Cusa is cool is WAAAAY cool in my book. It is just beyond the current crop of degenerates in physics to even understand this stuff.
It is easy to read Weyl as describing the source of magic in the world. He doesn't call it as such, framing it instead in more conventional religious AND mathematical (!) terms, but still, he describes it, explains how it is the basis of science, and exposes what a mystery it really is. That's why he calls it an "open" world. Open to the infinite possibilities.
Not that I want to diverge too much, but having now read Weyl (greater than Einstein), Schrodinger (who formalized quantum mechanics), and Leibniz (invented calculus and dynamics), and seeing that all 3 were open to God, it just amazes me what an utter crop of nincompoops have taken over in physics today.
You nailed it: both hilarious and tragic at the same time.
Thanks, John! Nice to hear from you!
Best,
Don