Mod+ 276. DR. ALAN HUGENOT, IANDS AND THE FUTURE OF NDE RESEARCH

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, May 26, 2015.

  1. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    I don’t accept the Copenhagen Interpretation. I stand with Einstein and his intuition that QM is an incomplete theory. I would say it is an incomplete transitional theory, similar analogically to Ptolemy’s mathematical astronomy.

    I am not a physicist, but even if I were I could only offer an interpretation since this is not a matter that is settled. There has always been a significant body of dissent from the Copenhagen Interpretation since its formulation.

    At the common sense level it is my direct experience and intuition that assures me of the world’s existence outside and independent of my mind.

    As I wrote before, what exactly the fundamental physical nature of the world and matter is remains to be known.
     
  2. Bertha Huse

    Bertha Huse New

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    Are you aware that John Bell's theorem has ruled out Einstein's local hidden variables? Or are you referring to something else Einstein wrote?

    Yes there has been dissent, but nothing has disproven the Copenhagen Interpretation, certainly there has been no theory based on classical physics which has disproven the Copenhagen Interpretation. To me and many other scientists it still remains the most reasonable and unambiguous interpretation extant. In addition, some of the more recent quantum physics experiments have confirmed the Copenhagen Interpretation, such as the paper I just cited.

    I am curious why you feel the Copenhagen Intepretation is insufficient, and what is it you believe models the scientific data better? Do you have a particular Interpretation you feel is more acceptable than Copenhagen?

    Science has demonstrated our normal consciousness is extremely limited regarding what it can perceive. What seems like "common sense" perception and assumptions, turns out to often not exist in reality. This has frequently been demonstrated in modern physics as you probably already know. What we perceive is limited by our physical body and brain's capabilities, which are very poor measuring devices regarding the pervasive quantum effects of the actual reality demonstrated by quantum mechanics.

    I agree there still is much to be known, but physics is not a completely empty vessel. We do have some scientific theories which are credible and verifiable - especially in quantum physics. The scientific men I referred to have provided credible scientific data with well established theory to explain the data they observed. Theory which has been confirmed repeatedly now since the very beginning of Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein's debates regarding the fundamental nature of quantum theory. It turns out, in many cases Einstein was wrong, and Bohr was right. This is not something that is debatable any more, especially regarding quantum entanglement and non-locality, or the incorrectness of Einstein's Hidden Variables EPR theory.

    You do state QM is an incomplete theory. I do agree with you. However, no current credible quantum physicist would ever make the claim quantum physics will somehow return to classical physics. We left that shore a long time ago, and we're not coming back. However, if not the Copenhagen Interpretation, then what Interpretation do you feel is more valid, and would model accurately, for example, John Wheeler's delayed choice experiment? Personally I'm at a lost what other Interpretation could explain it.

    If you do not have another Interpretation you wish to refer to or are knowledgeable about, then that's fine. I will assume your assumptions are just based on what you feel is "common sense".

    My Best,
    Bertha
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2015
  3. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    As I said, I stand with Einstein’s intuition, not with any particular objection or suggestion he made. During his lifetime Einstein did not successfully counter the Copenhagen Interpretation, or demonstrate his own intuition; therefore the theorem you mention does not change my mind on that issue.

    On a side note according to Wikipedia:
    “The present status is that no conclusive, loophole-free Bell test has been performed.”

    Scientifically the matter is unsettled, and I choose not to accept the Copenhagen Interpretation.
    I am not trying to argue or convince you I am right; I am only stating my personal conviction at this time.

    I also do not accept the unreality of matter or any form of idealism. I am not even sure the Copenhagen Interpretation necessarily implies or requires the unreality of matter. But that seems to be your interpretation of it.

    I am aware of the issues of sensory perception and epistemology and I do not argue for any kind of naïve realism.

    I don’t propose a return to Classical physics.

    I proposed an intuition about where the truth may lie; which is beyond where we are today, and I was very clear that this is only an intuition.
     
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  4. Bertha Huse

    Bertha Huse New

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    Wikipedia has been doctored by a number of known guerilla atheists/skeptics with an agenda. One must be wary of what one reads there.

    I disagree with you and Wikipedia if the implied assertion is that John Bell's theorem is incomplete. It is complete and has been tested, many many times.

    All the scientists I named (giants in the field of physics, and many of them colleagues of Albert Einstein) stated matter itself is not real, and the Copenhagen Interpretation does imply the unreality of matter - assuming we are using the same definitions of what has been known as "real" in classical terms. Now if you arbitrarily decide to change the definitions and claim what is "real" is whatever can be determined by science i.e. such as the new Stanford definition of Physicalism, then there is no debate, as you have changed "real" to be far more than it has been in the past. My contention is assuming the usual "classical" assumption of what "real" is.

    That is fine regarding your intuition. And I appreciate your replies. My own intuition tells me consciousness will never be explained in terms of neurons and electro-chemical reactions in the brain - or highly complex neurological structures of inert matter will never create self-awareness or a single human thought. That no scientific laboratory will ever create life as we know it from inert, lifeless matter. But that is just my own "intuition". Cheers.

    My Best,
    Bertha
     
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  5. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I obviously don't understand what your position is... as these statements would appear to be incompatible to me...

    "...my direct experience [... ...] of the world’s existence outside and independent of my mind"

    "I am aware of the issues of sensory perception and epistemology and I do not argue for any kind of naïve realism."

    I didn't understand how you could have a "direct experience" of the external world which is "independent of [your] mind". And then later you also say that neither are you arguing for any kind of naive realism (direct perception).
     
  6. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I agree with some of what you say, but my own understanding of this is that 'matter' is an objective fact. Once particles are measured, have decohered and become macroscopic, they become an objective fact, and that measurement affects future measurements. Before it decohere's (microscopic) it's just a probability, and the system has no objective factual state.

    Whether we can say this is because what we are observing at the particle level, is the calculation process by which we recreate an objective external reality, or, whether it is our observation of a calculation process of a pure creation that has no direct relationship to an underlying reality, I don't know. I can't see how one can tell. But for me, 'matter' is an objective fact once it's been measured, but there is no objective state between measurements.
     
  7. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    Hell
    Yes I agree that Wikipedia is unreliable.

    Re Bell’s Theorem: in spite of several tests which favour non-locality, what is known as the detection loophole has thus far not been resolved. So tests have supported the theorem, but not indisputably; and in fact the matter is still disputed. This recent article in Nature discusses it.

    http://www.nature.com/news/physics-bell-s-theorem-still-reverberates-1.15435

    My position about the reality of matter is not a metaphysical statement as to what matter actually is. So I have not arbitrarily changed any definitions.
    What I have clearly said a number of times is that we do not know what matter is at this time.

    My position is that matter and the world generally is something that exists independently of my mind. I reject idealisms and naïve realisms. There is something out there which our senses and our instruments are interacting with. Indeed our senses and our instruments are part of the material realm.

    I also affirm the independent reality of consciousness. That is to say, my intuition arising from my examination of the data I have been able to review thus far leads me to the conviction that consciousness is not an epiphenomenon of the brain.

    Monisms, require the a priori dogmatic elimination of the reality of one or other of the dual fundamental aspects of human knowing (subject and object; seer and seen) and thus cannot yield a coherent theory of human knowing or experience.

    So I am philosophically a dualist. Both consciousness and matter are real. Our experience as human beings cannot be coherently reduced to either one.

    In my opinion the Copernican moment for human mind and consciousness sciences will be when dualism is accepted as a general working model.
     
  8. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    I don’t have experience that is independent of my mind. I have experience, which is mental, of a world that is outside and independent of my mind. A world which enters my mind as sensory data.

    I am aware of the many issues involved in the transmission of the physical data from the world to the senses; and then the transmission of the sensory data to the brain; and then the perception and interpretation of the data in the mind; all of which leads me to the, I think, sensible conclusion I mentioned as to naïve realism.

    By naïve realism I mean the presumption that reality is precisely what and as I personally perceive and understand it to be. This is the epistemological foundation of all fundamentalisms.
     
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  9. Bertha Huse

    Bertha Huse New

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    Thank you David for this link. I reviewed the article and did not see any kind of credible invalidation of Bell's original theorem (in 1964) even with his expanded theorem in 1976. If anything, it just confirmed it even more i.e. "Nature violates local causality."

    All I see in Howard Wiseman's paper is an argument over "definitions" which is similar to the silly Skeptical nonsense being conducted (I am not saying however Wiseman is a Skeptic). To me, it is clear localists have decided to arbitrarily argue over the meaning of non-locality (much like the physicalists have changed the meaning of materialism) to forward their materialistic "classical" positions i.e. we don't know really what locality is, therefore no one can conclude anything about it! To say that two entangled particles immediately and non-locally share state (when observed) is correlated with no reason, is to me, a preposterous argument defying logic and common sense -it's a type of super-correlation that is even more unbelievable than the assumption that causation does occur faster than light, which seems pretty clear. OK, so no loophole-free Bell experiments have yet to be conducted. But on that same note, no experiments have been conducted that have DISPROVEN John Bell's theorem.

    We don't know what non-locality is. Hell, we don't even know what gravity is. That is not the claim being made regarding John Bell's theorem. It is describing what matter is not: local. We have determined a great deal of what matter IS NOT. It is not real or objectively present unless observed (or measured) regardless of what materialists continue to assert. This much we do know in quantum physics. What it actually is, yes, nobody really knows right now.

    Interesting. So you are a dualist? That makes things a lot more complicated IMO. But it is certainly a valid philosophical position one can take. With a number of arguments for and against of course.

    Disagree. But this is a deeply metaphysical/philosophical debate that I don't wish to entertain right now.

    Ah ok. Yes, I just read this line see comment above.

    Fair enough.

    I am beginning to suspect consciousness really is the fundamental "atom" of reality. Especially given what was established in quantum physics, and continuing QM experiments, such as the most recent paper confirming John Wheeler's delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys3343.html Consciousness is non-local and boundless, is both subject and object. It precedes form. Form does not precede consciousness.

    My Best,
    Bertha
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  10. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    I never argued that Bell’s Theorem had been disproven. I was very clear about that. I only pointed out it is not undisputed. I also never argued for or against local or non-local variables. I posited instead the possibility of some future physics which might get us closer to the nature and structure of matter. You want to hold me to the fire for things I never said or argued for. I do wonder are you arguing with me or a phantom.

    I have asserted the independent reality of matter and the world. I assert that the objects in my drawer continue to exist and be there in my drawer whether I look or not. And I also assert there are no cats in my drawer (or my drawers) either!

    I wonder, if matter is unreal, a product of mind, and only apparently real when observed, why do we need to do these complex physics experiments?
    Should not the question be resolved by logicians and mathematicians; or perhaps psychologists?
     
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  11. Bertha Huse

    Bertha Huse New

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    Perhaps I am. Maybe too much time arguing with irrational Skeptics and I'm starting to see phantoms.

    Well in this your assertion would be incorrect IMO. But that doesn't seem quite like what is being argued above regarding Bell's Theorem. It's not whether the cat is there or not, but whether causality has anything to do with the cat being there or not.

    Actually the problem has been approached by psychologists such as Carl Jung or Frederic Myers for that matter. And parapsychology has addressed the problem of consciousness frequently as well. However, quantum physics is also another approach to consciousness, as it too has touched consciousness with the observer problem.

    My Best,
    Bertha
     
  12. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    In the paper in which Schroedinger introduced the cat paradox he began the section dealing with it with this sentence:
    "One can even set up quite ridiculous cases."
     
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  13. Bertha Huse

    Bertha Huse New

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    I agree with Schrodinger. For example, a ridiculous argument such as: there is no reasonable correlation between the observer and the quantum wave function collapse, or no causation. Either way an absurd statement given the experimental results which have been tested now for decades, and substantiated by Bell's theorem. Schrodinger, Heisenberg, Bohr, von Neumann would never agree to such silliness (IMO).

    My Best,
    Bertha
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  14. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I still don't really understand how one can have any experience of something [insert anything] which is independent of ones mind.
     
  15. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    Almost all loop holes have been closed on local realism. Experimental designs are in the works, I would not be betting against quantum theory.


    http://www.2physics.com/2013/06/quantum-experiment-preludes-endgame-for.html
     
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  16. Haruhi

    Haruhi New

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    If by "the empirical evidence of the mind" you mean evidence suggests that some human agents endure after their biological death, there is the empirical evidence of psychical research.
     
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  17. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    So I presume you either dont know or dont accept the physiology of perception?
     
  18. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    Whats that?
     
  19. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    If you know someone who wears spectacles, ask them why?
    Perhaps they will be able to tell you something about the physiology of sight and the science of optics.
     
  20. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    How do you think that will help me understand how one can have any experience of something [insert anything] which is independent of ones mind?
     

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