Mod+ 279. SIMON GREEN ON PLANT MEDICINE AND PLANT SPIRITS

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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  2. Vortex

    Vortex Member

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    Alex, you seem to make a new podcast every few days! How do you manage to go at such a pace? It requires an effort for sure... My congratulations. :)

    Waiting for the Jessica Utts interview. ;)
     
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  3. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    Thanks for this Alex, Simon lives only a state away from me. I would love to visit.
    I have been growing Ayahuasca and Chacruna for about ten years. I am a self taught ayahuascero, it took years to learn but I do cook a mean brew. :)

    I am glad the difference with DMT was brought up. Most westerners think Aya is just to have ingestable DMT. DMT is an additive. The vine is the wisdom, DMT is the light. The harmaline in ayahuasca was original called telepathine actually.

    The vine really does speak, as for healing it becomes very clear how your mind affects your body. Psycological wounds manifest physically. I once regurgitated snakes, from my mouth and out my nose. I felt the serpents dragging out the trauma I had collected. Sounds really nasty, but it was actually liberating strangely enough. The physical purge mirrors the psychological purge. It is not the chemicals that do the healing.

    She deserves the title mother of all medicine.

    There are several studies on aya, but none can capture the essence (spirit) of the thing, pharmacology is just a tiny piece.
     
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  4. Alex

    Alex New

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    well. I'm kinda stuck... there are so many really cool people I want to talk to and once you do the interviews you gotta publish :)

    but, I am trying to get back to my once every two week schedule.

    I'd love to do an itnerview with Utts but it won't be until the fall... for the above mentioned reasons.
     
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  5. Hjortron

    Hjortron New

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    I don't even think that takes it far enough. Ayahuasca is in my mind *the* experience anyone can and should have, I think it should be a part of mandatory schooling for every citizen of a rational and mature society. It's the only substance which feels like the brain was actually made for taking it.

    Also, it truly has the potential to end the depression epidemic that's gotten a grip on the Western world.

    The only word of caution is that if you dose it improperly and give someone too much, it can truly be horrifying - they can trip completely out of their mind and beyond everything that exists for hours, and this will legitimately feel like years. After having researched this plant and its effects for a long time now, I feel that I can safely say that I think a lot of shamans in the jungle do it the wrong or at least sub-optimal way, where they dose it with a lot of RIMAs and a fairly low amount of DMT. This will be very healing but it will also be a very hard and tough journey that you will not necessarily find it easy to enjoy, at least not while you're having it. I think a low dose of RIMAs and a bit more DMT is a lot better. It keeps you grounded in this reality, while letting you see how completely, totally and absolutely amazing it is. In other words, you'll have an experience that wipes the floor even with drugs like MDMA in terms of sheer awesomeness. And I should know, I've done both and it's not even a contest.

    The RIMAs (for instance, the Ayahuasca vines, that contain the harmala alkaloids) are not only what activates the DMT, but also what amplifies it to an unimaginable degree. That is, the amount of RIMA you take sets the tone for the character of the DMT itself - it's like tuning in to different channels of the usefulness of DMT. Multiply the RIMA dosage with 1.5x, for instance, and it can be 100x stronger an experience, I am not kidding. Do the same with only the DMT part of the drink and it won't be at all as much of a difference. I think this needs to be learned and recognized, but of course the whole Ayahuasca movement dogmatically clings to it as a "Sacred Medicine Only" thing instead of for what it really is - the substance that we were all meant to consume and party on. Alcohol is a total joke of a drug in every sense in comparison. It's unhealthy, boring and it certainly isn't interesting or enlightening. The only thing they have in common is that they taste bad. I am not trying to oversell it when I say that I've had more fun on my own on this substance than anyone else has ever had at an alcohol party in the history of the world. I can't even describe how fun I've had on it with friends and going out to party on it.

    Either way, Ayahuasca completely removes the cultural filter you've been having your whole life. For some, that can be a hard pill to swallow, to see how neutral and indifferent the world really is to your belief systems. It will be a life changing experience. Anyway, this might be worth a watch:

     
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  6. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the interview:

    What is the path forward for our Western culture's acceptance of traditional healing modalities? How can we understand and assimilate them within that culture?
     
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  7. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    What is the path forward for our Western culture's acceptance of traditional healing modalities? How can we understand and assimilate them within that culture?

    I was impressed by the video that Hjorton posted: really, it answers these questions beautifully. For the time being at least, there exists the option of Westerners going on Ayahuasca retreats like this and bringing back the lessons learnt with them. Maybe Alex was thinking in terms of formalised mechanisms, but really, if enough people do this kind of thing, there could end up being a quiet revolution in the way we think in the West.
     
  8. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature. I don't think the analogy is rude. It is spiritual in the sense that intelligent design is spiritual.

    I am in favor of scientific and medical research on these plants and I am in favor of their use in traditional religious practices. But I wonder what those who are so quick to condemn all religion think about the subject.

    Personally, my belief is that if you meditate enough, you don't need drugs.
     
  9. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    A clip from National Geographics excellent series "The Witch Doctor will see you now".

    The host has his first experience. He remarks on the power of the icaro, and the energy patterns emanating from the Shaman. The shaman can read the energy pattern through Ayahuasca for diagnoses. There is an objective reality, for lack of a better word. Anyone can see the patterns.
    Every time I see tendrils of energy permeating everything, it seems alive. I think it is. Chi ? Ki ?

     
  10. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    That was another really valuable interview, Alex. At one point you said:
    I think that is a huge puzzle - I mean what does it mean that the spirits that people seem to invoke (or encounter in NDE's) relate to al the various religions from around the world?

    The only possible sense that I can make of it, is that perhaps 'out there' contains a vast extension of the same human organisations that we find on Earth! So all these prophets and spirits and gods rule a bit of territory out there!

    David
     
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  11. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    The Santo Daime is a mix of Christianity and shamanism. Many curendero are influenced by christianity and others.

    http://www.santodaime.org/site/site-antigo/doctrine/whatis.htm

     
  12. Johnny

    Johnny New

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    And Alex had the nerve to say that someone I recommended to be interviewed cranks out a lot of stuff. lol

    Just yanking Alex's chain, I can't wait to listen to this interview. Although I also have to listen to the previous interview first. I can't keep up, but well done Alex. ;) This one looks like fun.
     
  13. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    I've been investigating The Temple of the Way of light and found many video testimonials here:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/TemploCaminodelaLuz/videos

    --including one by the doctor in Hjorton's earlier video, on a subsequent visit he made:



    That strengthened my feeling that the message will be getting out in the future.

    I've been thinking seriously about maybe going to the temple later this year or early next year, perhaps for the one month deep immersion sojourn. Have to see how things pan out, but the money's not a problem so I'm asking myself what better could I spend some of my savings on?
     
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  14. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I don't know. It seems to me this is like saying that the only valid experience of an NDE is one that proves Jesus is who we should follow? It's limiting ourselves.

    I have been meditating for around three years now and though it definitely has helped me, it has not provided any kind of 'spiritual boost', like a ayahuasca trip might. I'm well aware that I am a beginner in terms of meditation it time terms, compared to many, maybe it will reveal things eventually?

    I think anything that moves us forward in the area of spiritual growth should be encouraged, even if gradually and carefully in the case of drugs. The big advantage I see meditation having, is that it won't encourage a harmful industry growing around it, and even if there are scam artists they are not harming anything much. I've not heard of meditation doing harm of any kind.
     
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  15. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I think that any acceptance will not be forced, if it comes it will come with the raising of consciousness that has been predicted. Personally, I'm no longer as convinced that we have to push so hard, things may be as they are for a reason.

    I loved the interview, though I didn't really fancy it beforehand. I thought that Simon had a great way of getting things across in a minamalist, down to earth manner.

    Thanks to you both.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  16. I don't really disagree with you that's why I wrote:
    But this type of meditation creates a feedback loop causing the brain to release endorphins, serotonin and dopamine.
    https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/meditation-1#meditation_serenity

    It really is like a drug trip, maybe not a psychedelic trip but it's not normal meditation. Every breath you take is like a hit from a bong, but there's no bong. And it is hugely spiritual. It doesn't require super intense concentration so I think most people could learn to do it. I had to stop the other day because it was so intense I was getting nervous. How many people do you know who were feeling so happy, and connected to all things and feeling such intense metta that they were worried they might never get back to normal? And I felt the presence of non-physical entities too.

    It also creates a kind of synesthesia where everything I see and hear I also feel in my body as if they are part of me. There is an effect like the brain is a virtual reality machine and what I see is really a movie inside my head, like my mind contains the whole universe including me walking around inside it. It changes the "energy" of your surroundings too. You could go to the filthiest shack in the poorest slum in the most miserable God forsaken corner of nowhere and meditating this way would make it a place of beauty and joy. These effects are not gross like a psychedelic trip they are subtle like a change in understanding... But I am still looking for the screen behind the movie.

    The best thing about this type of meditation is not the intense experiences, the best thing is that between meditation sessions I'm happier and I worry less.

    It doesn't cause vomiting or diarrhea like Ayahuasca does. It's 100% free. And as far as I know it's legal everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
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  17. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    Go for it Michael! Your money goes to a good cause as well.

    Great interview there. I can relate, you can feel your own organs and feel the medicine doing its thing, almost like it is showing you. I was taken back when he mentions this higher order. It seems to show this as well, and there is this is this deep noetic sense as being just a matter of fact. It is really difficult to describe.

    I think if more educated and inquisitive professionals like him start to seriously investigate through experience then eventually things may snowball. Integrating with modern medicinal concepts may be inevitable. It is not just ayahuasca, some of these people have herbal knowledge spanning 50 or more generations with a vast knowledge of the pharmacological properties of hundreds to thousands of species. I only just discovered that the mimosa tenuiflora I grow, rich in DMT is a incredible treatment for a variety of conditions. Curing untreatable venous ulcers in just 12 weeks, and was used with astonishing effectiveness treating hundreds of burn victims of the natural gas depot explosion in Mexico in the 80's and victims of the earthquake the following year. It has been used by the indigenous tribes since pre Colombian times. Just one example. I don't think FDA approved though unsurprisingly, but the burn victims were not complaining about that. :)

    There are thousands of species, and modern medicine has only investigated like 1%. There is a treasure trove there, and a treasure trove of knowledge that has been preserved. In fact a fair percentage of modern medicine was stolen borrowed or copied from the indigenous knowledge. But of course this is just the pharmacology here. They have much more to offer that does not blend easily with modern concepts of health but is evidently effective. Some treatments would appear to make no sense at all from a materialist reduction point of view. integrating that may be a big call, a complete change of cultural perceptions, but fortunately Ayahuasca offers just that.

    The research begins with the experience!
     
  18. Bro's Badass Neighbor

    Bro's Badass Neighbor New

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    So I get the drug part. But I don't get the "retreat" nor the "ayahuasca" parts.
    Though I get what "trendy" means and I am aware of cultural trends in general. I suspect that if I were so unoriginal, and furthermore felt that personal journeys of inner exploration were group efforts, I might be inclined to such an excessive undertaking of time and money-wasting cultural trendiness. Anyhow, why not just smoke some DMT and sit back in the comfort of your own living room? Oh, I forgot. That's not like spiritual or whatever.

    Please do not try anything without the guidance of a responsible, self-appointed gatekeeper, I mean shaman.
     
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  19. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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    Hey bro, I think you were better when you were sexy!! :)

    You are right, there has been this trendy thing emerge from the spread of interest. DMT is not Ayahuasca btw.
    And as someone who has done just as you say, it was not easy at all.

    And to emphasize their really is more to it.

    I would love to go to the way of light. Mainly because it is through the Shipibo people. (I have a chacruna strain from the Shipibo's :)).
    Just being in the jungle and the cultural shock can be trans-formative. I would like to go just for that alone.

    Also there are frauds who are targeting Ayahuasca tourism, sometimes with tragic consequences. The Shipibo people are the real deal, they are Maestro and renowned healers, I do believe they offer medical screening and safety is paramount. If you are concerned about that of course.

    And while it is in a group, your journey is your own, guided by people who know it better than anyone else and can fact guide the process. Some people do react in some frightening ways, like they are possessed, writhing and screaming! If it is in there it is coming out!

    Myself, I just served as my own lab rat :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  20. LoneShaman

    LoneShaman Member

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