A quantum case of mind over matter?

#1
I was browsing my facebook and I saw this:


A quantum case of mind over matter?
New research proposes a way to test whether quantum entanglement is affected by consciousness.
Link:https://insidetheperimeter.ca/a-quantum-case-of-mind-over-matter/



And I thought it was just another clickbait from a New Age site claiming that "QM = ESP", however I was surprised that the link was from the Perimeter Institute. And I was more surprise that the author was Lucien Hardy (you may not know him, but the guy is "certified genius":https://scholar.google.com.br/scholar?hl=pt-BR&q=lucien+hardy&btnG=&lr=).

I personally deslike to mix quantum mechanics to mind and paranormal and many attempts to do that are just stupid. However, I find interesting when serious physicists (like Henry Stapp, Harald Atmanspacher and Roger Penrose).

Link for the full paper:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.04620.pdf

(He talks a little bit about cartesian dualism too, however I didn't read everything)


Edit:

More info:
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...st-could-reveal-the-limits-of-the-human-mind/


 
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#3
Well, should be very interesting if the experiment is successful, Don't cross your fingers though.
I think that nobody will ever perform such experiment and, as Nicolas Gisin, I think the experimental setup by Hardy is not optimal to check these kind of things. However I think that people like Dean Radin should probably try to do something similar to what the paper proposes (in fact, I don't even know if some parapsychologist has done something similar).

Nevertheless, I find funny how these people are essentially promoting experiments to disprove materialism and everybody is "Ok, it's important to do that and see what happens". However, this is exactly what parapsychologists are doing for decades and almost nobody cares.
 
#5
VERY interesting - thanks for linking!

Reminds of the experiments where humans seemed capable of detecting photons.
He cited a lot of interesting references for instance:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.04804 - Quanta and Qualia - Adrian Kent (Cambridge University)

And other two papers from him:

[26] Lucien Hardy. Local determinism and mind-matter duality. preprint, 1989. Available on request.

[27] Lucien Hardy. Proposal for experiment to investigate local deterministic models which incorporate non-material mind. preprint, 1989. Available on request.

I'll try to see I'm able to get them. (Also, It's funny how he waited almost 30 years to be more open about his non-materialistic ideas. I wonder if Rupert Sheldrake had done that, if he would be a renowed biologist now).
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#9
I don't understand how measuring an EEG, which is material, will demonstrate that the mind isn't governed by material laws.
It's not necessarily a hard proof but it would be unusual/interesting if QM acts differently in the mind than it does outside it. That it does is one of the testable portions of the Peer to Peer Sim Hypothesis.

I personally don't expect much from the results but I think the experiment is interesting.

That would have been a loss. One way or another, I think Sheldrake chose his path wisely.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Winston Churchill
 
#10
All of those papers are quite old, after that he created Hardy's paradox which was tested a few years ago. You should look that up, it's interesting.
Yes. The papers are from his PhD years and he never published it, after that he focused on his formal carreer in quantum foundations. However, the first paper I quoted is from one week ago and apparently he didn't "change his mind" that a non-material mind is physically possible

(And Adrian Kent paper is from last year).

I don't understand how measuring an EEG, which is material, will demonstrate that the mind isn't governed by material laws.
Well, the point is to be a proof of mind over matter. If everything is governed by material laws then mind can be non-physical but does nothing in the physical world.

Also, the point of EEG is just to make things faster. The real point is to see if human conscious decisions can affect the physical world in a way that it's not simply predicted by physics.

As Hardy puts it:

Now we introduce humans into the picture. We suppose some sort of mindmatter duality in which the physical universe is local and super-deterministic. In the absence of minds, then, it is possible to violate Bell inequalities. Now we suppose that minds act on the physical universe locally introducing “new information” into the physical universe through the brain. This information spreads out locally such that, one second after such a mind-act, this new information can be available 3×108m away. It is clear that we can derive Bell inequalities for this kind of situation in which humans choose the settings at each end (so long as we ensure that the new information cannot have reached the measurement event at the other end). We call theories of this kind local (super)-deterministic dualistic theories (LDD). Such theories were originally put forward in [27, 26].
Of course, I'm not saying his picture is correct and I don't think it's going to work. Also, even if it's true, this doesn't mean that his experiment is going to work. However, if his experiment works (which at least is theoretically possible) then it will be fatal to materialism.
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#11
Nevertheless, I find funny how these people are essentially promoting experiments to disprove materialism and everybody is "Ok, it's important to do that and see what happens". However, this is exactly what parapsychologists are doing for decades and almost nobody cares.
It won't disprove materialism. It will simply add a big wrinkle to be explained. That explanation might lead to a rejection of materialism in the long run.

The trick here will be reproducibility, which is the problem with psi. If many scientists can reproduce an interesting result at will, then people will pay attention. The question of loopholes in Bell experiments is important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loopholes_in_Bell_test_experiments

~~ Paul
 
#12
It won't disprove materialism. It will simply add a big wrinkle to be explained. That explanation might lead to a rejection of materialism in the long run.
Sure, you cannot disprove something, you can just make things more and more likely than other things. The point is if the experiment succeds, is much easier to construct a consistent local dualist theory than a consistent local materialist theory (see the discussion in sections 7 and 8 in the paper).

However, as I said before, I doubt that Hardy picture is right. But if it is, I cannot see any better explanation than his.
 
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