Al Borealis, Universal Health Care Trap? |478|

thx for this info. looked at yr link:
https://smartasset.com/financial-advisor/cost-of-having-a-baby

kinda cuts both ways :) looks like it can cost $20K... and if you run into complications a lot more. I'm not sure I can wrap my head around people going broke because they want to have a baby.

I believe socialism is fundamentally evil and soul-crushing... so I'm just trying to balance that with the other evil soul-crushing forces in our culture :)
The link you provided seemed to use the same data as a number of websites, typically of a commercial variety. The number provided were averages and did not provide much insight beyond a summary number (e.g., the $20k you quoted). We all know the challenges to any "average" cost as exceptionally high data points can skew data (up). I was interested in finding data on median and even bottom quartile/decile costs, but was unsuccessful.

Eric's details on the various healthcare options available in the U.S., especially for those of lower incomes, prompted me to look further into the details around Medicaid (since I couldn't find the aforementioned raw data). I was interested in the support options for folks at the lowest end of the income/wealth spectrum. See the link below for some information (that perhaps Eric can affirm/refute based on his technical understanding):

https://healthlaw.org/resource/qa-on-pregnant-womens-coverage-under-medicaid-and-the-aca/

My summary read of this shows that for those of lowest means, in most states the healthcare costs for pregnancy and birth appear to be very well covered. To whit:
5. What is the cost-sharing obligation under Medicaid or CHIP?
None. Medicaid law prohibits states from charging deductibles, copayments, or similar charges for services related to pregnancy or conditions that might complicate pregnancy, regardless of the Medicaid enrollment category.[14] HHS presumes “pregnancy related services” includes all services otherwise covered under the state plan, unless the state has justified classification of a specific service as not pregnancy-related in its state plan. States may, however, impose monthly premiums on pregnant women with incomes above 150% of FPL and charge for non-preferred drugs.[15]

Most states that cover pregnant women in their CHIP program do not have cost-sharing or any other fees associated with participation in the program.[16]
 
The link you provided seemed to use the same data as a number of websites, typically of a commercial variety. The number provided were averages and did not provide much insight beyond a summary number (e.g., the $20k you quoted). We all know the challenges to any "average" cost as exceptionally high data points can skew data (up). I was interested in finding data on median and even bottom quartile/decile costs, but was unsuccessful.

Eric's details on the various healthcare options available in the U.S., especially for those of lower incomes, prompted me to look further into the details around Medicaid (since I couldn't find the aforementioned raw data). I was interested in the support options for folks at the lowest end of the income/wealth spectrum. See the link below for some information (that perhaps Eric can affirm/refute based on his technical understanding):

https://healthlaw.org/resource/qa-on-pregnant-womens-coverage-under-medicaid-and-the-aca/

My summary read of this shows that for those of lowest means, in most states the healthcare costs for pregnancy and birth appear to be very well covered. To whit:
Correct. That is what I've been saying re; Medicaid coverage for the poor. Also, just about all hospitals have a social worker on the scene that assists people in getting signed up for Medicaid so neither the poor patient nor the provider have to worry about paying. The poor have socialized single payer medical coverage. They don't pay a thin dime for anything. Of course someone from some foreign country can imagine all kinds of things about what America is or isn't. I don't know why anyone take that kind of foreigner seriously. The Shanes of our country have some sort of mental issue that prevents them from understanding this reality as well. They cannot be helped until forced to encounter a social worker; even then the outcome is not certain.

Americans who aren't poor want choice in healthcare coverage. They don't want socialized medicine. Polls and market research consistently show that.

It's my job to know what things cost. I have already spoken to what a commercial or ACA member's out of pocket costs would normally be for any inpatient stay (Of which labor and delivery is a subset). I guess I should repeat. $3,500 is the max for the ACA and is a typical max for the more affordable commercial employer groups plans. More expensive plans with richer benefits would have lower member out of pocket amounts. Actually, with the ACA, if a member qualifies by virtue of lower income, they can have a "silver" plan the waves all copays.

The typical uncomplicated labor and delivery stay at a hospital costs us (what we actually pay the hospital) in the neighborhood of $4,000 - it varies from hospital to hospital, city, region, etc., but $4K is an average. I should repeat that insurance contracts rates with care providers. What the providers bill is not what they get paid. They only get a % of that - usually something like 50% to 60% of what they bill. Many articles are written by people that don't grasp that simple concept.

True, if you forego insurance you will be charged the full amount. However, you made the choice to forego insurance. A wise person would put some of what they didn't spend on premium into a savings account. It wouldn't take long to save up enough to cover a $10K bill. If you absolutely cannot save $1K/yr then you are either irresponsible or you qualify for Medicaid or a subsidized ACA plan.

Like I said, the problem isn't the system, it's dummies that can't take care of themselves at a basic level, like making a call to figure out what's available.

If a patient didn't have insurance and paid the entire amount of pocket, it would be around $6,500; maybe as high as $10,000 if they stay an extra day for some reason. That would be somewhere like New York City, where things cost more.

Again, if the infant is significantly premature, the mother has issues, etc it can be more expensive. It sounds like Alex and others here would prefer to just leave a premature baby on the hillside for the ravens, like they did back in the day - and mothers are replaceable too, I guess. Most people, though, want all of the best care possible delivered to the new born and the mother. They plan ahead, have insurance, and are able to handle the $3,500 (max) out of pocket.

Returning to the dummies - they are what they are. One reason I address the healthcare topic vigorously is that I know it inside and out and I know the propaganda about big pharma, about evil insurance, about $20 labor and delivery, etc causes the dummies confusion and to feel defeated before they even begin to try to understand what they can have. To me it's a lot like the systemic racism meme. Blacks feels like they shouldn't even bother studying and doing things right because whites won't allow them to progress. The real conspiracy here is the socialists who are interested in keeping people divided and down because that is the socialists' power source.
 
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Thank you. Yes, I was a professional MMA Fighter back in the late 90's, and have taught Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for three decades.

I also helped develop the professional fighter licensing scheme used by the Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation Combative Sports Division...

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/sports/sports.htm

That is so fucking cool, bro! Man, I love MMA so much! I have been watching MMA since he very first UFC in 1993.
 
No, I only have car insurance because I am forced to have that in order to drive, even though I have never caused an accident in my 27 years of driving. Again, free money to assholes that do not deserve it. More free money for the Newhills of the world!
Are you married and/or do you have kids?
 
Are you married and/or do you have kids?
Or own a house or other real assets that most people want protected?

Most people insure their homes and cars because those are assets of value that are at risk. Auto insurance also covers injuries that one may experience on the road, even if they are the other driver's fault.

Many people want life insurance to financially protect their family in the event of an untimely death or disability.

I guess if one is a hermit living in a cave (or mom's basement), insurance does appear superfluous. Of course most people are not cave dwelling hermits. So the opinion of one such does not carry much weight in a larger societal discussion.
 

Alex

Administrator
Alex, why are repeating that canard?

No one is going broke to have a baby because there is no one who should be without insurance. If you have insurance you are not paying $10K, or $20K or more if something goes wrong.

Once again - Medicaid is free for the poor an has no co-pays or deductibles. So poor people can have a baby for free, 100% free. The ACA/Obamacare is for people above the poverty line as defined by the 50 states. It has a sliding scale subsidy for premium based on income. There is up to 100% subsidy. The least rich benefit plan ("Bronze") would result in a max out of pocket of $3,500. Even if something goes wrong and the the cost is $100K, the mom would only owe, max $3,500; less if she has one of the more robust plans (silver, gold, platinum). The there is employer based insurance. The benefit level are varied. My plan has a $3,500 annual out of pocket max. When I worked elsewhere in the private sector, it $1,500. When I worked for Uncle Sam, I think it was a mere $750.

How many people are walking around with $2,000 cell phones and paying an extra $250 a month for entertainment an other services on it that then complain they can't afford a couple thousand out of pocket to have a baby? Or a couple hundred a month for their portion of a subsidized ACA policy?

It's on you to support the wild ass assertion that people are going broke to have a baby.

Is there someone somewhere claiming they went broke? Probably. Anecdotes can prove anything. Is it a real trend? Absolutely not.

And once again I'm going to state that hospitals are expensive. That is because of all of the top notch leading edge special technology in every room. Doctors are expensive because of their training and knowledge. Ditto nurses. If you want to be a lucite that doesn't believe any of that makes a difference in outcomes, then have a midwife deliver the baby in your living room. That's how they did it for much of human history. Deaths of mom and baby in delivery were very common.

Also, what hospitals bill is not what they get paid. They can bill $20K all day long, but they only get paid $10K because the contracted amount.

AB has no clue what labor and delivery cost in his country. He appears ignorant enough to think that it costs $0 - like I said, it's magical thinking. Pixies and sorcery make hospitals and technology and staff jus appear. Yeah, right.
regarding actual cost of birthing, I was going off it the link you sent. I was surprised it was as high as they said.

on the other hand, I do hear what you're saying about personal responsibility... I mean it's up to the individual to navigate this health care mess just like it's up to the individual navigate all the other important things in their lives. I get that and generally agree with that. but given that we live in a system that will always be a convoluted blend of socialism and free-market capitalism I think we might do a better job of finding the blend that works best regarding healthcare.
 

Alex

Administrator
The link you provided seemed to use the same data as a number of websites, typically of a commercial variety. The number provided were averages and did not provide much insight beyond a summary number (e.g., the $20k you quoted). We all know the challenges to any "average" cost as exceptionally high data points can skew data (up). I was interested in finding data on median and even bottom quartile/decile costs, but was unsuccessful.

Eric's details on the various healthcare options available in the U.S., especially for those of lower incomes, prompted me to look further into the details around Medicaid (since I couldn't find the aforementioned raw data). I was interested in the support options for folks at the lowest end of the income/wealth spectrum. See the link below for some information (that perhaps Eric can affirm/refute based on his technical understanding):

https://healthlaw.org/resource/qa-on-pregnant-womens-coverage-under-medicaid-and-the-aca/

My summary read of this shows that for those of lowest means, in most states the healthcare costs for pregnancy and birth appear to be very well covered. To whit:
excellent. thx.
 
regarding actual cost of birthing, I was going off it the link you sent. I was surprised it was as high as they said.

on the other hand, I do hear what you're saying about personal responsibility... I mean it's up to the individual to navigate this health care mess just like it's up to the individual navigate all the other important things in their lives. I get that and generally agree with that. but given that we live in a system that will always be a convoluted blend of socialism and free-market capitalism I think we might do a better job of finding the blend that works best regarding healthcare.
Alex - from my link "The average price of having a baby through vaginal delivery is between $5,000 – $11,000 in most states, according to data collected by Fair Health. These prices include the total duration of care, the obstetrician’s fee (including prenatal care), the anesthesiologist’s fee and the hospital care fee. The average costs for a Cesarean or C-section birth range from $7,500 – $14,500." I agree with those figures and I have insider info right in front of me on my desk top (actually, it's a little less).

The $20K figure is a high end - an outlier and the article states that it is what an uninsured person would pay.

We (insurance) negotiate reimbursement rates. As I said previously, we usually pay 40% to 50% of what the provider bills. They agreed to that and they accept it. If you don't have insurance they will try to stick you with the entire amount of what they bill. You - the uninsured individual - can try to negotiate with them. You may succeed, or not. That's why smart people have insurance. Medical care is expensive. It's all high tech administered by highly trained specialists and there is high demand for the latest and greatest and the most. It is very price inelastic.

Europeans drive crappy little cars. Americans drive big SUVs and we have two or three of them. America is not Europe. We are wealthy and demand big expensive stuff. We have the same demand in our healthcare services that we do with cars and everything else.

We are also a big diverse country (unlike European countries). A one size fits all solution out of Washington DC isn't going to work here.

As far as navigating the healthcare system, most people do just fine. That said, it could - and is - definitely challenging for some people. Those tend to be the people that need the most help with everything. Social justice warriors should concentrate on having teams of social workers address the need to connect people with the available options instead of demand that the entire system be destroyed and replaced with some utopian vision. My comments about how and why no one should be without insurance - because it's available and affordable (even free for the poor) for those who need it - are 100% accurate. Improving the knowledge of what's available and how to connect is what's needed. That is why the misinformation and knee jerk socialism bothers me. It's just so much misinformation being put out there by people with a political agenda and they don't care who or how many get hurt in the process of furthering that agenda.

Contra what Shane thinks, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'll be retiring in a couple of years. I don't care if the system goes socialized. I think it would be a massive mistake and I think the typical consumer would hate it, but it wouldn't impact my life; except when I personally need healthcare. Then I'd be in the suck like everyone else.

But even if the system did go single payer and/or socialized the private insurance companies would still be in business. Read the history of Medicare Advantage. The feds realized the could not administer Medicare as well as private companies. Now 35% of Medicare is via private insurance with private insurance in an at risk position. The % private will grow. I happen to know that all serious proposals for single payer/socialized involve a govt/ private collaboration. It was that way under Obama, under Trump and now discussion with Biden are in the same vein. So even lefties like O and B know that it is beyond the US goat's ability to handle such a massive enterprise. Like I said, we are not a puny homogeneous country like Norway.

If people would listen and learn instead of going off on ideological rants we might be able to get somewhere.
 
what if someone owns a house but doesnt have any money in the bank, is the persons house and second property taken into account as assets that wouldnt qualify them for free health care? Could they be forced to sell those properties to pay emergency medical bills or a woman going into labour?
 
What would be the upper limit of someones earnings per annum for them to get free health insurance? Is the figure after any income taxes etc?
Your personal residence isn't factored in.

Depends on what state you live in. Some states have a cut off at federal poverty level. Some are higher. Check your state's Medicaid site.

For ACA/Obamacare go here -
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/subsidized-coverage/

I think your cartoon is funny. It highlights the fact that a bunch of twisted perverts are setting the rules and values that the herds of stupid and cowardly lemmings follow.
 
Your personal residence isn't factored in.

Depends on what state you live in. Some states have a cut off at federal poverty level. Some are higher. Check your state's Medicaid site.

For ACA/Obamacare go here -
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/subsidized-coverage/

I think your cartoon is funny. It highlights the fact that a bunch of twisted perverts are setting the rules and values that the herds of stupid and cowardly lemmings follow.
Thanks for info. Will do some research.
This where the transvestite jokes stop

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Thanks for info. Will do some research.
This where the transvestite jokes stop

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But would puberty blockers and gender change surgery be covered under socialized medicine?

Like I said, Americans demand more medical services than other countries. American chicks with dicks would probably want a bigger one than Euros. Maybe even two or three apiece. Maybe have one attached to their forehead. Can't deny it, lest one be labeled a racist bigot nazi hater.

I identify as an elephant!

We need look no further than our culture and our neighbors for the answer to high medical costs. Obesity drives about 30% or more of costs.

Big scary CORPORATIONS!!!! are merely supplying what people demand.
 
We need look no further than our culture and our neighbors for the answer to high medical costs. Obesity drives about 30% or more of costs.

Big scary CORPORATIONS!!!! are merely supplying what people demand.
Can see how things are not necessarily clear cut between free health care provided by the government and peoples taxes and a medical insurance system but i would have to say that big medical corporations (without tarring them all with the same brush) are out to make money from peoples suffering, like Bill satan Gates. For example in an NHS style system the government gives the medical companies about 200'000 dollars per person for patients to go in during the day (no overnight stays) and have chemo and radiotherapy, of which there is about a 50% survival rate (tho it is increasing). Even in success stories it is a huge ordeal for someone to go through but hey big pharma company gets it's 200K one way or another. On the other hand someone could grow a few cannabis plants in their garden (not indoors under unhealthy UV lights) for nothing, make some oil with it and use it conscientiously. I can almost guarantee you that the cure rate is way over 50% and no one dies from the oil itself unlike chemo. No intrusive or painful ordeals, or side effects. Cost 0 bucks. Chemo and radiotherapy business- booming, 1 in every 2.5 people die of cancer- no thanks to gm food, food additives, pollution, chemicals put on tobacco, 72 vaccine cocktails for kids in US etc etc etc. Cannabis oil - illegal and one of big pharmas prime targets with disinfo.
Also most people only use the synthetic medical industry as that is all they know and it is the only thing that is widely available. How much money has been spent by big pharma on research into naturally derived medicine compared to research into patentable synthetics (very often 'copied' from isolated organic substances) and big machines?
 
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