Typoz
Member
For those who are struggling with the basics of what an NDE actually is, I can recommend the
Online NDE Course
Online NDE Course
Ok. Then what happens according to your belief, in the process of reincarnation, what exactly do you envisage in this case?My thinking on the soul is unorthodox. I believe that the brain does produce and sustain consciousness. The soul is the non-physical or inner consciousness. In other words, the soul is a product of the brain. I don’t believe that God installs souls into brains in utero. I also believe that, once a consciousness begins, it never ends. Consciousness is partially in non-physical reality during life, and completely in non-physical reality after death.
The physical precedes the spiritual.
I suppose my problem with the concept that the brain goes on functioning after loss of blood flow to the brain, is that it is fundamentally a naive. I mean even a drop in blood pressure can cause someone to faint - the brain is clearly critically dependent on its supply of blood, but equally obviously its activity will decay away over a short period - but why would one expect exceptionally clear scenarios to unfold within a brain that is just dwindling to a standstill.New NDE research shows that the brain keeps functioning after death. Personally, I’ve always realized that OBEs have physiological causes.
In my view, reincarnation doesn’t happen. You get one physical life and an eternal afterlife. I’ve heard stories about people that supposedly remember things from previous lives. This could possibly be a psychic phenomenon, where mental impressions from the past can somehow affix to a living mind, Then again, I don’t know if past life memories have ever been concretely verified.Ok. Then what happens according to your belief, in the process of reincarnation, what exactly do you envisage in this case?
I think if one is going to put words into the mouths of other people, and to presume what they would say, that is a risky and shaky ground on which to stand.
What Dr Parnia has repeatedly said, over many years, is that death is a process, not a moment. Hence if asked whether a person in such a situation was dead or alive - of course it would be better to ask him to find out for sure. I suspect he would not give a one-word answer, but instead a lengthy explanation.
Alex Tsakiris (Skeptiko) vs TJump, are NDE's reason to believe in non-physical minds?
my debate with TJump:
I’m TJump and I’m an atheist by which I mean I believe there are no reasons to believe in the existence of a God. If you like my original arguments you can help me to make them more popular by subscribing or donating to my Patreon so in future i can publish my ideas.
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This was fun... a bit of a throwback regarding Tom's arguments against NDE science. What really blew me away were the comments on YouTube... some of these skeptics can be a weird bunch :)
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Good job, mostly, but I was disappointed that the discussion went down the "possible" vs. "likely" rabbit hole at the end. You did better than I would have in the same position. I think the crux of this whole debate was missed, and I will raise it here. I apologize if someone has already addressed this, I honestly don't have time to read all the comments in a timely fashion before making this post. I did read a lot of them, and didn't see this point.
What is the difference between "science" and "magic?" (Or "science" and "supernatural?") What justification does TJump have for labeling one option "natural" and the other "supernatural", (thereby implying it's "nu-natural")? Doesn't that labeling show explicit bias for one explanation, even though he said, up front, that he didn't care which turned out to be true? Since you two didn't define your terms, you often talked past each other. The term "natural" was never defined in the context either. The real issue here is the the belief that "science" is good, "magic" is bad, that we must defend "good science" from "bad superstition" by any means necessary, and I get to define what is "magic" and what is "science" based on nothing more than my own opinion (and my friends, who agree with me!).
The line between science and magic moves all the time, and now consciousness and the psi are crossing that line, while the religious fundamentalists and ridged materialists are scrambling hard to push them back. (I wonder if any of the materialists have realized the irony that defending their position now requires that they deny hard science?) They conflate materialism with science, and any challenge to materialism to an "attack on science." The sad fallout of this is people like TJump using scientifically questionable methods to defend their positions, thereby legitimizing these methods for the flat earthers, antiVaxxers, and anyone else with a belief to promote.
I suspect that if we drilled down deep enough, we would find this conflation: mind<>brain = God (or gods) exist, and that is what TJump is afraid of. Despite his assertion that he doesn't care what explanation turns out to be true, he clearly has a dog in this fight.
Yes i am fine with the research, nothing in the research answers any of the questions you asked... which is why the conclusion is unsupported because they are doing the exact same thing i did, coming up with an ad hoc explanation that answered nothing (mine is ad hoc physical thier's is ad hoc non-physical) neither answer any of these questions...
The brain never stopped functioning during NDE's... it take 20 min for brain cells to run out of ATP (energy) and die so they continue to function 20 min after cardiac arrest with no blood flow. If being given CPR all the cells continue to be given energy and function up to 45 min after cardiac arrest. Even if there is no measure EEG (electrical activity) in the brain, there is still measurable fMRI activity so it is simply false to say the brain is "dead".... its not dead at all all the cells are doing just fine you simply are not conscious.
If you want academic references you can see the work by Dr. Adrian M Owen The University of Western Ontario from the The Brain and Mind Institute. There are many many papers on fMRI readings from coma patients: Measuring consciousness in coma and related states Carol Di Perri
The science is not on the side of non-physical consciousness. All the NDE research says is "We cant measure brain activity with these tools".... thats it, which does not indicate at all there is no brain activity, only no conscious brain activity. My explanation provided in the video covers this... they are not conscious they just remember the sense datum collected by the subconscious as an explicit memory giving the illusion its was a conscious experience.
My thinking on the soul is unorthodox. I believe that the brain does produce and sustain consciousness. The soul is the non-physical or inner consciousness. In other words, the soul is a product of the brain. I don’t believe that God installs souls into brains in utero. I also believe that, once a consciousness begins, it never ends. Consciousness is partially in non-physical reality during life, and completely in non-physical reality after death.
The physical precedes the spiritual.
I suspect that if we drilled down deep enough, we would find this conflation: mind<>brain = God (or gods) exist, and that is what TJump is afraid of. Despite his assertion that he doesn't care what explanation turns out to be true, he clearly has a dog in this fight.
This opinion is not supported by an overwhelming body of evidence concerning the nature of human consciousness.
I found this interview very aggravating and I'm not sure arguing with skeptics actually does any good for either party. (And i used to be one. I used to fight with college bible thumpers and thought I was matter's gift to intellectual rational thought. It took 7 hits of LSD and a telepathic experience to smack me into reality. Let them learn the hard way, why should we suffer?)
How so?