Alex Tsakiris, Four Questions About the Future of Skeptiko |414|

#81
Exactly who has admin permissions and how those permissions are acquired (lawfully or in violation of some code) is not clear yet. We know that emotion is involved. We know that dissolution of boundaries is involved. We know that will is involved at the boundary where the mechanism interfaces with the Abyss. No beings are truly discarnate because if they were, they'd be merged with the Oneness and we couldn't distinguish them - that said, their flesh might be of another type not fully understood by us.
Want to love this a dozen times!! Love the "admin permissions" metaphor :) And yes, maybe there is an intentional violation of some code, and "someone" is trying to give us "subtle" hints that this is a simulation.
Great to re-connect Hurm, hope you are well!
 
#82
or maybe it's a social engineering conspiracy :)


don't think you're going to slip another Malick reference in without me noticing :)

Wow I didn't even know about that movie... definitely going to watch that this weekend! My wife and I are having a baby boy very soon so it seems very timely :)

I seem to get stuck on the symbols in the Genesis creation account... for a while it was the Abyss and now it is the Tree of Life.

I've just been cogitating on the Tree of Life concept a lot lately because of all the UFO stuff and contemplating the physics of the craft... ...I thought if there's a small chance I could some day be engaged in the pursuit of "free energy" and the technology to send ET home, then I should form an opinion on whether such a thing actually exists and if so why is it kept from us and what are the implications if we were to hack our way back into the Garden and take also from the Tree of Life... because that is essentially what the UFO physics represents.
 
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#83
Fascinating. The intuition with EVPs is that spirits are bypassing the transducer and working with the electrical signal or even manipulating the storage medium directly (which means in the case of computer recording they're conversant with file systems and sound file formats). And if they're doing that then they'd have to simulate the acoustic properties observed. Sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of benefit. The time thing makes more sense on some level. How do they get their voices into our time stream? Via the past?
Well .... maybe, I mean are you fully conversant with the nervous pathways in your body when you raise your hand? Likewise there are some well documented people who can take control of all sorts of mechanisms in their bodies - but they never claim to understand the scientific details of those mechanisms.
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/

That guy has been studied under lab conditions!

David
 
#84
Exactly who has admin permissions and how those permissions are acquired (lawfully or in violation of some code) is not clear yet. We know that emotion is involved. We know that dissolution of boundaries is involved. We know that will is involved at the boundary where the mechanism interfaces with the Abyss. No beings are truly discarnate because if they were, they'd be merged with the Oneness and we couldn't distinguish them - that said, their flesh might be of another type not fully understood by us.
Well I suppose round here I do, but in practice the software tends to have a mind of its own! Maybe this is a useful analogy to what you are talking about.

David
 
#85
I've just been cogitating on the Tree of Life concept a lot lately because of all the UFO stuff and contemplating the physics of the craft...
I wonder if the physics of UFO craft is essential at all for our conveyance to the Tree of Life. Is more necessary than disconnection from our physical bodies to find ourselves at the threshold of Mind at Large (M@L) where all is revealed to us... as well as our options ~g
 
#86
I wonder if the physics of UFO craft is essential at all for our conveyance to the Tree of Life. Is more necessary than disconnection from our physical bodies to find ourselves at the threshold of Mind at Large (M@L) where all is revealed to us... as well as our options ~g
It might seem like a leap to go from UFO propulsion systems to the Tree of Life, so let me expound...

A power source that utilizes anti-matter or free-energy would potentially give us all a holiday from our work as work becomes obsolete and it would theoretically allow us to live forever. But it would also give us the power to tear the world apart.

If such a power source is possible, and the universe is not destroyed thus far, then either we could be early adopters and soon we'll start seeing star systems start exploding like popcorn or... there is set in place a hierarchy to guard this "technology".

I put "technology" in scare quotes because it is technology, but when you start playing with space-time you blur the lines of Cartesian dualism. To manipulate space-time also implies the ability to alter the set and storyline from a God-like (or Admin) level... and also to live forever.

So we know anti-matter exists and we know that vacuum energy exists - we just don't know how to harness a significant amount of it, but to do so seems like it should involve time-reversal and/or gravity reversal in there somewhere.

Okay, parallels to the Genesis story:
Getting kicked out of the Garden and separated from the Tree of Life means we have to work hard. It means we don't live forever (at least in this flesh). And we are said to be separated from the Garden and the Tree of Life by a guardian set in place by the gods: Cherubim with a flashing sword. So the Tree of Life is still there if we can just hack in and take from it. <devilish laugh>

I found this interesting interview with Dr. Alcubierre (the guy who theorized the warp drive) and thought very fitting at 30:30 they talk about how "the universe doesn't forbid it [negative mass or time reversed matter]" while giving the example of a negative mass apple...

The universe doesn't forbid the fruit of the Tree of Life, but there is a hierarchy that guards it and until we figure out how to fight off the Cherubim with the flashing sword and take that negative mass apple, then we're cursed to work and die. But if we do take of that fruit, having also the other fruit we might realize the potential to tear everything apart in the process.
 
#87
Because they are rejoining the collective.
LOL The wonderful thing about going home is its what you think it is, in a way. I think its been fairly established. Does that mean you get the 72 virgins if you just blew yourself up? Yeah I think so. No act is judged good or evil. The evil is the deception you bought into and took home with you. Is there a clearing of deception. Only if you want it. IMO
 
#88
here's my take on jeff dr. Jeffrey martin:

1. is he who he says he is? Is he a harvard-trained social scientist who left a successful marketing career to pursue the question of enlightenment / awakening. as near as I can tell he is.

2. did he really go around and conduct dozens of 8-12 hour interviews with enlightened masters from a variety of different traditions / religions? I don't know for sure, but it sure seems like he did.

3. did he use that information to develop a methodology that would allow people to achieve the positive aspects of what these great masters were talking about? it seems like he did.

4. did he use best-in-class psychology / personality testing to measure his results? I don't know but as someone who's signed up for his course and didn't complete it because I was bombarded with psychological profiling test I assume that he did.

5. are his results significant? he claims that people who go through his course experience a significant shift in "wellness" as measured by the standard psychological tests that he uses. he claims these shifts happen at a level that is unprecedented among those who care about these social science metrics. from what I read in his book and by watching his presentations at professional forums he's backed up these claims... but maybe I've been duped.

-- what part of this don't you agree with?
Alex,

#1 Marketing involves using psychological techniques to influence people to buy stuff. If my criticisms (below) are valid it is safe to assume a Harvard-trained social scientist who left a successful marketing career would be well aware of them and the implications of that are enormous.

#3 Many of the techniques Dr. Martin teaches are freely available. What he developed is a unique system he claims helps the student to find the best technique so they can attain PNSE (persistent non symbolic experience - in other words enlightenment) in a few weeks. This is what is supposed to justify the high tuition for the course. That aspect, the system for assigning techniques and whether it produces non-symbolic consciousness, has never been tested as far as I know. You would need to use a blind protocol with experimental controls to test it. The fact that his students may experience increased wellbeing shows that the freely available meditation techniques used in the course increase wellbeing it does not prove his system for assigning techniques works better than assigning a technique randomly nor does it prove the course is better at producing non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

#4 To my way of thinking this is damning with faint praise.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...chology-results-not-reproducible--study-65117
Half the Time, Psychology Results Not Reproducible: Study
https://theconversation.com/we-foun...sychology-research-is-reliable-now-what-46596
We found only one-third of published psychology research is reliable – now what?
...
What we found is that when these 100 studies were run by other researchers, however, only 36% reached statistical significance.
You say you dropped out of the class. I would like to know what % of students don't complete the class, do they get a partial refund, and are the success rates based on only students who complete the class or all students including those who drop out? If a large fraction of paying students never complete the class, a high success rate based only those who complete the class might be misleading for people trying to decide if they should sign up for it.

#5 I have no problems with people saying meditation increases wellbeing. I have a problem when people make strong claims about an expensive course without backing them up sufficiently. I've explained my concerns in a previous post in this thread:

My criticism of the research based on his classes contains specific detailed criticisms such as subjective self-assessments by students, lack of experimental controls, lack of blind protocols, and conflicts of interest.
To be clear: there are two endemic problems with psychological research 1) When other people try to repeat the experiments using the same protocols they often can't. 2) The experimental protocols themselves may be unreliable so even if the research can be replicated you still don't know if the results mean anything.


I am also not convinced the four stages of PNSE are correct based on my own experiences. One of the experts he interviewed in his original research believes he forced the data to fit his preconceived beliefs:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/6458099#_19_message_6492333
...
However, he did stay overnight here at my house and we spoke for about 9 hours about the dharma and his work and ideas. He was a nice enough guy.
Clearly, some people are gaining benefits from the freely available, valid and useful techniques that he has summarized, repackaged, and sold at high price, though aspects of his models, which were already fixed before he had all his data, make my skin crawl at times, and I detect some marketing and idealized elements that contradict real-world data points.
Dr Martin may have used best-in-class methodology to measure the results from his classes, but his original research on PNSE was done differently it was based on interviews. There is no way to tell whether his personal bias influenced his results. That's fine for an exploratory study, but it needs to be tested objectively before it is taken as fact.

The PNSE stages are the underpinning of the system of assigning the right technique to the student. If the PNSE stages are flawed the whole basis for the course and its high tuition is flawed.

The P in PNSE stands for Persistent. Based on my understanding of the Finder's course the students have to continue their daily meditation practice after the course is completed to retain the benefits of the course. Buddhists who have attained even the first stage of awakening say that meditation is not required to retain that state.

The NS in PNSE stands for non-symbolic. Dr. Martin used the term non-symbolic consciousness because he found it increased the likelihood subjects would agree to be interviewed. It is not clear how that term relates to what the students in his classes experience. Increased wellbeing is not the same as non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

The only part of PNSE that I think is not misleading as it relates to the course is the E.

And I think there is a lot of confusion about how the PNSC locations compare to enlightenment or awakening as defined by other systems. To his credit, Dr Martin had clearly defined the PNSC locations. But if I understand his original research correctly, he developed the definitions of the locations of PNSC by interviewing people who were considered enlightened within their own school of practice, so it is natural for people to think these locations represent enlightenment. I have not taken the FInder's course but I see a wide gap between the definition of non-symbolic consciousness and the PNSE locations. The effects described for the PNSC locations look to me like the effects of a lot of meditation, not awakening. People who are awakened according to Buddhist schools of meditation will do a lot of meditation so they will share the characteristics of people who meditate a lot. But that does not mean those characteristics necessarily correspond to enlightenment. (If Dr. Martin has done relevant controls, he might refute this point by comparing the data for people who meditate a lot but are not awakened with the data for people who are awakened.) I think that could be another source of criticism. People are going to be critical when they hear claims of a fast way to get "enlightenment" ("persistent non-symobolic consciousness") and then find out that the thing is defined very differently than how they have understood the term.
What I find hard to understand is why Dr. Martin has such greater success than the inventors of the meditation techniques he uses. He says it's because he assigns the technique that is most appropriate for the student. But if that were all, then the traditional schools should still have greater success (more students getting enlightenment and in less time) than they do even if it is not as great as Dr Martin's success rate. What I suspect is really going on is that Dr Martin's measure of success is different than the traditional schools'. I don't really think it is extraordinary that his students experience what he describes in the PNSE locations, they do a lot of meditation in the class and they exhibit the traits of people who do a lot of meditation. I just don't think that is what Buddhists call awakening - so I think his claims about the class are confusing people.
 
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#90
LOL The wonderful thing about going home is its what you think it is, in a way. I think its been fairly established. Does that mean you get the 72 virgins if you just blew yourself up? Yeah I think so. No act is judged good or evil. The evil is the deception you bought into and took home with you. Is there a clearing of deception. Only if you want it. IMO
*****
Oh for God's sake... nobody is getting 72 virgins. Pa-leeeze. 72 virgins, these 72 virgins all want you. I see. So, 72 virgins chose a forever hell with some nitwit who does stupid stuff? I don't think so. I can speak with some authority on this as I was once... a virgin.

I have given this some thought BTW, 72 virgins. Right. Where would I get shoes for all these 72 virgins? THAT'S just the start, and if I'm having a BBQ who is cooking all the cloven hoofed beast for these people? AND, can you imagine all these "virgins" on my deck!? Who's cleaning up the place? I think my deck would fall off.

You know some of these "ideas" all sound gay & wonderful until you actually put them into practice! 72 virgins. Come on. Think about it. Not just contending with 1 or 3 but 72!?

** pshhh, falls under the category "careful what you wish for."
 
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#91
haha. fortunately, I think I figured out my problem. you see despite the fact that there are six billion people on the planet, and they're all having unique experiences, my mind has somehow constructed this reality that puts me at the center of everything. I get peeved when it rains more than two days in a row. I'm mull over past mistakes and missed opportunities even though I have no way changing what's happened. I've compiled a massive list of likes and dislikes and when the world doesn't conform I don't like it. I live in fear that everything won't turn out the way that I want.
***
Oh dear, that IS a problem. First off, you're not at the very center. Look, find some old history book that shows you a bunch of black & white photos from the gold rush days. A photo with a lot of tired, dirty gold hunters. See them? All those people had dreams like yours & mine. Some bigger, some simple but they worked & toiled in the dirt trying to make a dream happen.

Now, they are dead. See? They too thought their dreams were all important & the center of all. Their dreams were no more or less important than ours. So, right there that should kind of "center" you.

You need to turn some of your thinking around. 2 days of rain makes you peeved? Hon, look, here is where you are off. See what you have to do is appreciate those 2 days in comparison to people who are flooded out of their homes, or the house burnt down or they got swept out to sea. Compared to them you've got it made. Turn this around.

Have you ever played that game in your head where you name 10 things you are grateful for? Sure we all say our home, food, some oddballs we know & love, health. But, you need to go beyond that, really think. Walk about your neighborhood at night & think about it. I can name 1,000 things I'm grateful for. The fireflies, beautiful flowers that smell like heaven, the full moon to light my way. I'm safe. I can go take a bath, with clean water & a new warm towel and beautiful soaps. I mean we have so much to be thankful for that we have just overlooked as "given". Change the way you are thinking for a bit.

About these "past mistakes & missed opportunities". That's called the human condition. Happens to us all, but here is the deal, you have no idea how those past mistakes & missed opportunities REALLY might have turned out.

As for the MASSIVE list of things you like & don't like. ME TOO! OMG! Can we talk tattoos on grown old people and WTH are those big saucers in the ears!? What are these people thinking? The ring dings and what nots they have stapled, nailed and clamped onto their bodies. Frankly, it takes all I have, not to say something to some of these people at the WAL-MART. My mother used to say "things you see when you haven't got a gun." And no, we didn't have guns in the house, it was just her saying.

ANYWAY, okay lastly your fear of things not turning out the way you want. Well, I have a fear of ending up poor and on the street like some old bag woman, pushing the cart & talking to cats that aren't there. HOWEVER, the likely hood of this happening is probably nil as I live in a castle in the woods, have savings and my family wouldn't allow it I'm sure... I hope. I'm pretty sure. Well, I could pay strangers I'm sure.

That does leave us with the fear we could lose our minds. NOW THAT'S A PROBLEM. Walking around without your mind! I hope this has helped you. See, there are actual REAL things you could waste your time worrying about. Remember the gold miners (3rd photo down): http://www.150.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=27596

Your song for the night:
 
#92
Alex,

#1 If my criticisms (below) are valid it is safe to assume a Harvard-trained social scientist wold be well aware of them and the implications of that are enormous.

#3 Many of the techniques Dr. Martin teaches are freely available. What he developed is a unique system he claims helps the student to find the best technique so they can attain PNSE (persistent non symbolic experience - in other words enlightenment). This is what is supposed to justify the high tuition for the course. That aspect, the system for assigning techniques and whether it produces non-symbolic consciousness, has never been tested as far as I know. You would need to use a blind protocol with experimental controls to test it. The fact that his students experience increased wellbeing shows that the freely available meditation techniques used in the course increase wellbeing it does not prove his system for assigning techniques works better than assigning a technique randomly nor does it prove the course is better at producing non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

#4 To my way of thinking this is damning with faint praise.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...chology-results-not-reproducible--study-65117


https://theconversation.com/we-foun...sychology-research-is-reliable-now-what-46596



#5 I have no problems with people saying meditation increases wellbeing. I have a problem when people make strong claims about an expensive course without backing them up sufficiently. I've explained my concerns in a previous post in this thread:



To be clear: there are two endemic problems with psychological research 1) When other people try to repeat the experiments using the same protocols they often can't. 2) The experimental protocols themselves may be unreliable so even if the research can be replicated you still don't know if the results mean anything.


I am also not convinced the four stages of PNSE are correct based on my own experiences. One of the experts he interviewed in his original research believes he forced the data to fit his preconceived beliefs:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/6458099#_19_message_6492333


Dr Martin may have used best-in-class methodology to measure the results from his classes, but his original research on PNSE was done differently it was based on interviews. There is no way to tell whether his personal bias influenced his results. That's fine for an exploratory study, but it needs to be tested objectively before it is taken as fact.

The PNSE stages are the underpinning of the system of assigning the right technique to the student. If the PNSE stages are flawed the whole basis for the course and its high tuition is flawed.

The P in PNSE stands for Persistent. Based on my understanding of the Finder's course the students have to continue their daily meditation practice after the course is completed to retain the benefits of the course. Buddhists who have attained even the first stage of awakening say that meditation is not required to retain that state.

The NS in PNSE stands for non-symbolic. Dr. Martin used the term non-symbolic consciousness because he found it increased the likelihood subjects would agree to be interviewed. It is not clear how that term relates to what the students in his classes experience. Increased wellbeing is not the same as non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

The only part of PNSE that I think is not misleading as it relates to the course is the E.
Some people have more money than time and would prefer to sub out the effort to sort through all the free spiritual advice. Maybe putting some skin in the game also increases the engagement level which increases the rate of success. If most people are happy with the results they achieved I have no problem with what he’s doing. As far as I know His course costs less than a year of tithes for most. people.
 
#93
Some people have more money than time and would prefer to sub out the effort to sort through all the free spiritual advice. Maybe putting some skin in the game also increases the engagement level which increases the rate of success. If most people are happy with the results they achieved I have no problem with what he’s doing. As far as I know His course costs less than a year of tithes for most. people.
Skin in the game might increase the rate of success, it also might increase the need students feel to attain success and so influence how students respond to the self-assessments that are used to measure success.
 
#94
I'm not sure. I believe there are lower 4th density beings intermingling with us: earthbound spirits, non physical entities. I could say well it's the same space but tuned to a higher frequency. I don't think it's a 4th spatial dimension. Beyond the 4th there seems to be a more fundamental separation but I don't understand it. It's the other side of the tunnel. Also, I've experienced something like the Overview Effect looking at earth through VR goggles. It felt like a memory, as if I'd seen that view before but with a deeper understanding. In that sense, perhaps there is some kind of space separation.

(Basically, I believe there is a 3D physical realm along with a non-physical realm "nearby" where our thoughts and emotions can influence and from which non-physical entities can influence us. This is the sandbox, and there are higher realms beyond this sandbox that are harder to reach for most of us.)

As far as deception, I suspect it's non-physical entities working with black magicians.
Ahhhh the misunderstood black magician
 
#95
Interesting thing I noticed spending time with many magicians was African American magicians loved black magick, they explained why it is horribly misunderstood and why it's essentially one of the important missing components of being a magician. It's essentially but not limited to shadow work. Getting to know, understand and love the darkest parts of you for true healing. Who are we really if we don't explore the darkest parts of our hearts our psyche our souls?
Many of the Caucasians magicians(not all) were white magicians more or less they were the docile, preachy love and light people who were hiding suppressed emotions and thoughts, they creep they hell out of me as they acted way to neurotic (Ned Flanders) and then you had people like me trying to understand both paths and merge them together to become whole. I like what brother panic had to say about the lucifer/Satan archetype..
you know why he was called the prince of darkness? Simply he was the prince of Light who mastered his dark side. Lucifer means light bringer bearer its more a title than a diety depending on who you talk to.
The world is essentially "satanic" When we step outside and walk we kill dozens of bugs, not on purpose...we spray down table counters and kill germs. We kill animals and eat meat, animals and humans both eat plants. Living creatures get killed by natural disasters everyday. It sounds depressing but it's the truth. Is there good in this world? Yes but let's not ignore the bad,if that's how you want to look at it. As humans we have both sides on a spectrum, no one is completely whole. This is the nature of our existence stuff lives and dies seemingly for no reason.
 
#96
I believe the God in the Bible is evil, it's actually clear as day. When you pray to this God you are essentially giving it power it grows in our minds and hearts like a virus.
The true hero in the bible is Satan/lucifer
The God in the Bible wanted us to be obediant humans, but Satan said no I want humans to become God's
 
#97
*****
Oh for God's sake... nobody is getting 72 virgins. Pa-leeeze. 72 virgins, these 72 virgins all want you. I see. So, 72 virgins chose a forever hell with some nitwit who does stupid stuff? I don't think so. I can speak with some authority on this as I was once... a virgin.

I have given this some thought BTW, 72 virgins. Right. Where would I get shoes for all these 72 virgins? THAT'S just the start, and if I'm having a BBQ who is cooking all the cloven hoofed beast for these people? AND, can you imagine all these "virgins" on my deck!? Who's cleaning up the place? I think my deck would fall off.

You know some of these "ideas" all sound gay & wonderful until you actually put them into practice! 72 virgins. Come on. Think about it. Not just contending with 1 or 3 but 72!?

** pshhh, falls under the category "careful what you wish for."
I think one has plenty of info to draw on from Alex's 445 interviews. Go back to some of the NDE recounts, Medium research and OOB experiences. Throw in the fact that the matrix of who you are is the essense of the one I Am. The physical stories we engage in influence this formless energy to manifest as a relative form or reality. Formlessness is represented by our experience of simple choiceless awareness. Form represented by lets say your version of reality. You certainly feel what you express is real, right? Why wouldnt that carry over after the physical form dissolves.

Look, I remember when we here on the forum couldn't figure out why so many NDE experiences were so different. One saw Jesus, another experienced hell, another was surrounded by beings of light. Christians tended to have their faith strengthened. Carl Jung was lifted high above the Earth and given a vision of how it all unfolds. Came back with the theory of the Collective Unconscious.

Robert Swartz and Jurgen Ziewe both have similar experiences they related from different sources. I gave an example of the suicide bomber and his version of relative reality to point out. There is only one absolute reality. All the stories we get caught in are as they need to be for whatever purpose I dont pretend to know. Maybe if the bomber knew he was wrong he gets to experience hell cause he expects it. The bomber convinced he is doing allahs work well and expects to be rewarded. I cant say. Except there seems to be a pattern of complete non judgment. God is love. Thats not God apart from what we are. PS I love that part in the Bible that says "As you judge, so you will be judged".
 
#98
I found this interesting interview with Dr. Alcubierre (the guy who theorized the warp drive) and thought very fitting at 30:30 they talk about how "the universe doesn't forbid it [negative mass or time reversed matter]" while giving the example of a negative mass apple...
Some near death experiencers tell of having flown through the Universe. Albert Einstein said that the maximum speed attainable by an object having mass is the speed of light. May we assume from this that pure consciousness has no mass and therefore has not the speed of light as a limitation... does then our rejoin with Mind at Large perhaps also known as Source or God at bodily death enable infinite speed..
 
#99
Some near death experiencers tell of having flown through the Universe. Albert Einstein said that the maximum speed attainable by an object having mass is the speed of light. May we assume from this that pure consciousness has no mass and therefore has not the speed of light as a limitation... does then our rejoin with Mind at Large perhaps also known as Source or God at bodily death enable infinite speed..
We know the souls of good people weigh less than a feather, but does "pure consciousness" also have no momentum? :) Does it not change? If it doesn't change how do perceptions occur?

If we start trying to apply physics to something labeled "pure consciousness" then we are giving it a body.

I think of the speed of light less of a speed limit and more like a geometric constant or conversion factor like Pi relates diameter to circumference. The speed of light is what coordinates change enabling there to be something called the "now". It seems to me the way to break it is to assume this reality is something like a simulation, exit this frame altogether, and re-enter somewhere else... this would appear to those stuck within the frame as teleportation.
 
Alex,

#1 Marketing involves using psychological techniques to influence people to buy stuff. If my criticisms (below) are valid it is safe to assume a Harvard-trained social scientist who left a successful marketing career would be well aware of them and the implications of that are enormous.

#3 Many of the techniques Dr. Martin teaches are freely available. What he developed is a unique system he claims helps the student to find the best technique so they can attain PNSE (persistent non symbolic experience - in other words enlightenment) in a few weeks. This is what is supposed to justify the high tuition for the course. That aspect, the system for assigning techniques and whether it produces non-symbolic consciousness, has never been tested as far as I know. You would need to use a blind protocol with experimental controls to test it. The fact that his students may experience increased wellbeing shows that the freely available meditation techniques used in the course increase wellbeing it does not prove his system for assigning techniques works better than assigning a technique randomly nor does it prove the course is better at producing non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

#4 To my way of thinking this is damning with faint praise.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...chology-results-not-reproducible--study-65117


https://theconversation.com/we-foun...sychology-research-is-reliable-now-what-46596


You say you dropped out of the class. I would like to know what % of students don't complete the class, do they get a partial refund, and are the success rates based on only students who complete the class or all students including those who drop out? If a large fraction of paying students never complete the class, a high success rate based only those who complete the class might be misleading for people trying to decide if they should sign up for it.

#5 I have no problems with people saying meditation increases wellbeing. I have a problem when people make strong claims about an expensive course without backing them up sufficiently. I've explained my concerns in a previous post in this thread:



To be clear: there are two endemic problems with psychological research 1) When other people try to repeat the experiments using the same protocols they often can't. 2) The experimental protocols themselves may be unreliable so even if the research can be replicated you still don't know if the results mean anything.


I am also not convinced the four stages of PNSE are correct based on my own experiences. One of the experts he interviewed in his original research believes he forced the data to fit his preconceived beliefs:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/6458099#_19_message_6492333


Dr Martin may have used best-in-class methodology to measure the results from his classes, but his original research on PNSE was done differently it was based on interviews. There is no way to tell whether his personal bias influenced his results. That's fine for an exploratory study, but it needs to be tested objectively before it is taken as fact.

The PNSE stages are the underpinning of the system of assigning the right technique to the student. If the PNSE stages are flawed the whole basis for the course and its high tuition is flawed.

The P in PNSE stands for Persistent. Based on my understanding of the Finder's course the students have to continue their daily meditation practice after the course is completed to retain the benefits of the course. Buddhists who have attained even the first stage of awakening say that meditation is not required to retain that state.

The NS in PNSE stands for non-symbolic. Dr. Martin used the term non-symbolic consciousness because he found it increased the likelihood subjects would agree to be interviewed. It is not clear how that term relates to what the students in his classes experience. Increased wellbeing is not the same as non-symbolic consciousness (enlightenment).

The only part of PNSE that I think is not misleading as it relates to the course is the E.
noted :)
 
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