Mod+ AWARE Presentation Abstract

#2
Awareness during anesthesia is characterized by auditory perceptions, pain, and dream like states and associated with PTSD. Few studies have examined awareness during cardiac arrest. Although, these two phenomena share similarities, there are also differences. In particular during CA, patients may report visual perceptions (‘seeing’ and recalling events). Furthermore, some experiences are associated with the scientifically imprecise entity of ‘near death experiences’ (NDE). Methods: A prospective cohort study at 25 hospitals in the US, UK and Austria to determine the incidence of awareness (i.e. visual or auditory) during CA as well as the characteristics of patients’ recollections was conducted. We further examined the feasibility of testing the accuracy of visual and auditory recollections using standardized tests by pre-installing shelves containing images as well as instructing research staff to provide set auditory cues during CPR where possible. Survivors underwent a structured interview which included questions on visual and auditory impressions as well as the Greyson questionnaire to quantify experiences typically classified as NDE (score >=7) Results: 2060 cardiac arrest events were recorded with a reported survival of 32% (n=657). 23% (n=152) were interviewed. Information on visual or auditory impressions during CA was available on 89% of interviewed subjects. Of these, 37 % responded that they had experienced visual and/or auditory impressions during their time of unconsciousness and CA. Among those with auditory and/or visual impressions, 70% had a Greyson score >0 and 30% had a Greyson score >=7, consistent with a conventionally defined “NDE”. Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA. Placement of images corresponded with only 33% of all CA locations. The two patients did not have CA in areas with images. Conclusions: Auditory and/or visual experiences during unconsciousness may be a relatively common phenomenon. Even though these experiences may not reflect the conventionally defined NDE and may be different, they may indicate that consciousness may not cease as expected with cessation of heartbeat during CA
Hmmm, that's exactly what he already covered in his book. Doesn't sound like anything new. Guess we'll know for sure in a day, or two
 
#4
Feels like this is as enthusiastic as one is allowed to get when presenting something that touches upon one of the squirmy tendrils of the beast that is our never ending metaphysical query, namely "Is there a soul?" or however you choose to put forth this nonsense. And I only call it that because I imagine (maybe wrongly) that most mainstream academic researchers who would attend such events will dismiss it as nonsense without much forebrain usage if they so much sniff the word.

It's probable that Dr.Parnia is taking the course that affords him the most defense, which is not very much, against a potential onslaught of skepticism and ridicule, by only talking about the numbers.

If he's sneaky enough he may trick skeptics into reading the statistics first before realizing that it's about conscious experiences when the heart is not beating.

Then again maybe the results are just as ambiguous as his language.
 
#5
Parnia is presenting at a mainstream medical conference. The conservative language is typical (regardless of the subject) as researchers are expected to present only those conclusions which their results support. Speculation about ideas which aren't tested by the research don't have a place in these abstracts (whose word count is limited anyways).
 
#6
To break it down in numbers...50/152 people had some sort of awareness during cardiac arrest of which 15 were NDEs and 35 were not. And 2/15 had OBE/NDEs which included observations of their body during the resuscitation (we need a term for this special case, since that's where any veridical elements seem to come from). I can see why Parnia was complaining about the low rate of return - that's basically 1000 cardiac arrests to get you one case where veridicality can be assessed.

Linda
 
#9
The abstract looks fascinating. It seems no one who had a veridical OBE component to their NDE had a cardiac arrest in an area with one of those images placed high up (shame), but the results look very much in line with findings from earlier studies by Van Lommel and others.

Can't wait to get some details.
 
#11
lol, yeah if you include the people who were never interviewed and those who DIDN"T SURVIVE.
Right. They all have to be included. When someone is brought in needing resuscitation, you don't know who is going to survive and who is going be interviewable a priori. So you have to treat every case as though it may be The One (The Case where the target is viewed).

Linda
 
#12
So, if I want to find out what percentage of people tip at a restaurant that serves 2000 people per month, i can go and interview 150 of them, and it will turn out 2 out of those paid tips, and from that I can conclude that 2/2000 people on average pay tips at restaurants?
Makes perfect sense to me.
 
#13
To break it down in numbers...50/152 people had some sort of awareness during cardiac arrest of which 15 were NDEs and 35 were not. And 2/15 had OBE/NDEs which included observations of their body during the resuscitation (we need a term for this special case, since that's where any veridical elements seem to come from). I can see why Parnia was complaining about the low rate of return - that's basically 1000 cardiac arrests to get you one case where veridicality can be assessed.

Linda
I think the critical thing is that veridal NDEs can be shown to happen under experimentally controlled circumstances and that information is returned under these conditions which confirms awareness outside the boundaries of current explanation. How often it happens isn't the point - it happens.

Julies :)
 
#14
So, if I want to find out what percentage of people tip at a restaurant that serves 2000 people per month, i can go and interview 150 of them, and it will turn out 2 out of those paid tips, and from that I can conclude that 2/2000 people on average pay tips at restaurants?
Makes perfect sense to me.
I'm sorry, but what are you going on about? Did you read the abstract? Do you have any familiarity with how these studies are done?

Your supposed analogy is wrong, btw.

Linda
 
#15
I think the critical thing is that veridal NDEs can be shown to happen under experimentally controlled circumstances and that information is returned under these conditions which confirms awareness outside the boundaries of current explanation. How often it happens isn't the point - it happens.

Julies :)
What are you thinking of? Nobody has reported veridical target information or documented the boundaries, in this study or prior studies. Although, maybe Parnia's presentation on cerebral O2 may shed some light on this.

ETA: I just read the cerebral O2 abstract. It doesn't shed light on it, as Parnia doesn't put together the awareness data with the O2 information. But out of 64 subjects surviving, about 5 should report awareness (if the proportions from the awareness data hold).

Linda
 
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#17
So at least one solid, perfectly well-documented hit. Possibly two, depending on the details. That's actually big news, because it will lay to rest the notion that these things don't occur during the period when the brain is flat-lined, something that's been tied into the endless debate about the Pam Reynolds case (as she was only completely lacking any brainwave activity for a couple of minutes, albeit the fact that her NDE went along phenomenologically uninterrupted throughout). It's going to be really fascinating to see everyone dig into these two cases!

This is the result we've gotten out of 25 hospitals over a 5 year period where 23% of survivors agreed to an interview. A shallow Google-search told me that there are approximately 300000 hospitals in the whole world. In other words, if this study was implemented everywhere and treated as a default at hospitals, we could get ~10434-20869 solid hits on a yearly basis (300000/25 = 12000, 12000/5 = 2400, 2400 / 0,23 = 10434, someone please correct me if my math is wrong). In other words, if humanity really wanted a solid answer to this question, we could easily have it whenever we wanted.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see what happens at this conference, and I'm already excited knowing I'm going to get to listen to Parnia speak about his results :)
 
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#18
So, if I want to find out what percentage of people tip at a restaurant that serves 2000 people per month, i can go and interview 150 of them, and it will turn out 2 out of those paid tips, and from that I can conclude that 2/2000 people on average pay tips at restaurants?
Makes perfect sense to me.
To make this analogous to the AWARE study:

The drop from 2000 to 150 wasn't because you didn't interview them, but because when you went to interview them you discovered most of them weren't in a situation where they would/could tip - they hadn't ordered a meal or been served in the restaurant (maybe the restaurant does a brisk takeout business or sells their products (e.g. handmade pasta) over the counter like a specialty grocery store). Subsequently, your choice of denominator depends upon what question you are asking. If you are asking how many people who order a meal and are served in the restaurant tip, then the denominator is 150. If you are asking how many people from the total customer base tip, then it's 2000.

Your criticisms of the research methodology won't be appreciated in this thread or forum, but Parnia et. al.'s choice of design was appropriate for studying NDEs. If you want to discuss this further, you might consider starting a thread in the Believer vs Skeptic forum.

Linda
 
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#20
So at least one solid, perfectly well-documented hit. Possibly two, depending on the details.
I don't think they were technically hits. I think they're the ones he already mentioned in his book that did not have the targets installed in the rooms. Don't get me wrong though, I thought the one veridical OBE was remarkable. Probably part of what's selling Parnia on the afterlife. But, until we get an "official" hit with a target, skeptics will just dismiss it.
 
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