Brexit

#3
How does one even begin to square the notion of " we are all connected, part of of a greater consciousness, mind-at-large" with something as earthly and arbitrary as national boundaries?
 
#4
How does one even begin to square the notion of " we are all connected, part of of a greater consciousness, mind-at-large" with something as earthly and arbitrary as national boundaries?
Surrrre... "We are part of greater....." faceless, Orwellian, unelected, crypto-totalitarian mega-bureaucracy.... "Greater consciousness", LMAO. That of Barrosa o Junckers, I suppose.
 
#8
How does one even begin to square the notion of " we are all connected, part of of a greater consciousness, mind-at-large" with something as earthly and arbitrary as national boundaries?
One can't, really, and I often ask myself the same question. The two aspects (transcendent and earthbound) are alive in me and constantly at odds. Only great spiritual figures manage to remain constantly aware of what they truly are. Like many people, I'm still somewhat schizophrenic.
 
#11
Referendums (yes I did Latin at school) make me puke. We elect governments to decide these issues, not pass the buck to the people and say "don't blame us, you wanted it!" If they screw up, we put a different party in power. The only time we get refs are when a party hasn't got the cojones to make a stand on a controversial issue and risk losing an election, or when the party is tearing itself apart over policy. The rest of the time we get what we're served up.

The truth is no one has the slightest idea how leaving Europe will effect the UK. We're presented with with a bunch of ideologically loaded statistics by both sides, spun as if the conclusion is common sense. It isn't, it's complete guesswork because no one can read the economic and cultural tea leaves for the next half century. People complain about Brussels bureaucrats as though our domestic politicians and civil servants are public spirited and self sacrificing - personally speaking I wouldn't trust any politician with telling me the time of day. As much as I think the common market has outgrown its boots and the German and Greek economies are on completely different pages, the momentum for exit is from the same old xenophobic little englander bean-counting quasi republicans. They can stick their Henry V and their William Walton and their referendum where the sun doesn't shine, absolute scoundrels the lot of them.
 
#13
Neither would I. But I can vote them out if I'm dissatisfied with them...
While a number of perfectly valid points were made in that film, I was worried about a shot of Oliver Cromwell's statue bookending it. A genocidal, regicide, fun policeman who oversaw the grimmest days in Britain for a thousand years is not my kind of role model. There was also a lot of scorn for "the arts" - which are some of Britain's biggest exports - and more Thatcherites than you can shake a handbag at. I fear the Brexit campaign is all of those impulses focused on one cause, and having gained EU independence, we'll have a new corner shop yeomanry running the country instead of overweight Germans in well cut suits.
 
#14
I'll be voting to leave the EU. I used to support the EU, above all because I considered it a force for peace, but also some of its standards seemed valuable - for example it made Britain clean up its beaches.

I haven't changed since the previous vote when I voted to stay in, but the EU has. I think it has become extraordinarily dangerous and reckless. Perhaps the most striking example, was over the Ukraine. The EU, in its thirst to expand its borders, offered that country loans to help move it in that direction, and then fomented dissent against its democratically elected president. They or their advisers must have known that the population was split into a pro-Russian East and a Western, more right wing group - so a new pro-Western president would not be acceptable to the whole population. The result was a low level war that is still not resolved, and the risk (hopefully averted) of a direct East-West war!

This horrid mistake is now blamed on President Putin, and the US generals are happy to exploit it to buy yet more weapons.

This is not the EU's only mistake - think of Greece and the battle over the Euro and the awful way they handled the migrant crisis - they really aren't fit to govern. There is no democratic way to get the EU leaders to change - they aren't elected - and the only way is to get out.

Actually, there is probably another way - which is that I think the EU is on course to disintegrate, but waiting for that to happen is probably not wise.

David
 
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#15
I'll be voting to leave the EU. I used to support the EU, above all because I considered it a force for peace, but also some of its standards seemed valuable - for example it made Britain clean up its beaches.

I haven't changed since the previous vote when I voted to stay in, but the EU has. I think it has become extraordinarily dangerous and reckless. Perhaps the most striking example, was over the Ukraine. The EU, in its thirst to expand its borders, offered that country loans to help move it in that direction, and then fomented dissent against its democratically elected president. They or their advisers must have known that the population was split into a pro-Russian East and a Western, more right wing group - so a new pro-Western president would not be acceptable to the whole population. The result was a low level war that is still not resolved, and the risk (hopefully averted) of a direct East-West war!

This is horrid mistake is now blamed on President Putin, and the US generals are happy to exploit it to buy yet more weapons.

This is not the EU's only mistake - think of Greece and the battle over the Euro and the awful way they handled the migrant crisis - they really aren't fit to govern. There is no democratic way to get the EU leaders to change - they aren't elected - and the only way is to get out.

Actually, there is probably another way - which is that I think the EU is on course to disintegrate, but waiting for that to happen is probably not wise.

David
David, I agree 100%
 
#17
While a number of perfectly valid points were made in that film, I was worried about a shot of Oliver Cromwell's statue bookending it. A genocidal, regicide, fun policeman who oversaw the grimmest days in Britain for a thousand years is not my kind of role model. There was also a lot of scorn for "the arts" - which are some of Britain's biggest exports - and more Thatcherites than you can shake a handbag at. I fear the Brexit campaign is all of those impulses focused on one cause, and having gained EU independence, we'll have a new corner shop yeomanry running the country instead of overweight Germans in well cut suits.
We (I am assuming you are also British) would make what we wanted of Britain if we left. We would vote for our parliament, and they would be responsible for what they did - they would not be voting in EU legislation. The vote leave group would have no more say than anyone else - we would just decide in a decent democratic way.

I totally agree with your earlier point, that local parliaments can also be corrupt, but at least they are ultimately responsible to us.

People make an analogy between the EU and the US, but over there they do get the chance to elect the president, who does have at least some say in how the country operates. There is no equivalent institution in the EU.

David
 
#18
We (I am assuming you are also British) would make what we wanted of Britain if we left. We would vote for our parliament, and they would be responsible for what they did - they would not be voting in EU legislation. The vote leave group would have no more say than anyone else - we would just decide in a decent democratic way.

I totally agree with your earlier point, that local parliaments can also be corrupt, but at least they are ultimately responsible to us.

People make an analogy between the EU and the US, but over there they do get the chance to elect the president, who does have at least some say in how the country operates. There is no equivalent institution in the EU.

David
I'm not sure there's a any real comparison between Europe and USA (not that I think you're saying there is). The countries of Europe don't have a common language for a start and there's a massive variation in wealth and culture too. I'm not sure that's true of USA states. Personally I feel no connection with other European countries at all.
 
#19
We (I am assuming you are also British) would make what we wanted of Britain if we left. We would vote for our parliament, and they would be responsible for what they did - they would not be voting in EU legislation. The vote leave group would have no more say than anyone else - we would just decide in a decent democratic way.

I totally agree with your earlier point, that local parliaments can also be corrupt, but at least they are ultimately responsible to us.

People make an analogy between the EU and the US, but over there they do get the chance to elect the president, who does have at least some say in how the country operates. There is no equivalent institution in the EU.

David
It's impossible not to judge an idea by the company it keeps, and that film had some of the least compelling aspects of the British psyche in it. A former Sun editor, numerous discredited Thatcherites, public school educated man of the people Nigel Farage appealing to the lowest instincts of greed and prurience, with a statue of a man who his contemporaries dug up and dismembered. The Grinch who stole Christmas fawned over by a bunch of used car dealers and slime balls.

Don't get me wrong, the EU is another bloated supra-state mechanism full of paper shufflers, but let's not pretend any local council chamber, as well as the corridors of Whitehall isn't stuffed to the gunwales with toadies putting in their first class travel expenses and doing little favours (look at the Stalinist redevelopment of any UK town to see how that works) on the public purse. The decline of the British economy is the responsibility of managers drawn from exactly the cadre that's pushing Brexit, people with a complete lack of vision and a boat load of self interest. I hate politics and I loathe politicians. I've met a few from across parties and they share the same capacity for brightening a room simply by leaving it. Swivel eyed ideologues, and slimy garden fete openers, the lot of them.
 
#20
It's impossible not to judge an idea by the company it keeps, and that film had some of the least compelling aspects of the British psyche in it. A former Sun editor, numerous discredited Thatcherites, public school educated man of the people Nigel Farage appealing to the lowest instincts of greed and prurience, with a statue of a man who his contemporaries dug up and dismembered. The Grinch who stole Christmas fawned over by a bunch of used car dealers and slime balls.

Don't get me wrong, the EU is another bloated supra-state mechanism full of paper shufflers, but let's not pretend any local council chamber, as well as the corridors of Whitehall isn't stuffed to the gunwales with toadies putting in their first class travel expenses and doing little favours (look at the Stalinist redevelopment of any UK town to see how that works) on the public purse. The decline of the British economy is the responsibility of managers drawn from exactly the cadre that's pushing Brexit, people with a complete lack of vision and a boat load of self interest. I hate politics and I loathe politicians. I've met a few from across parties and they share the same capacity for brightening a room simply by leaving it. Swivel eyed ideologues, and slimy garden fete openers, the lot of them.
No, come on, speak your mind :)
 
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