Bruce Fenton, A Better Human Origin Story |429|

#22
Well, somebody has to come up with a better notion than Darwin or Sitchin. Once we escape from the gravity of materialism and the idea that we evolved from primates by sheer dint of chance does not wash. The ancient traditions are quite clear that we were 'made' - which is not an objectionable notion when we stop being precious and materialistic about it.

The stuff about ET and hybridisation isn't a problem when we stop reflexively seeing ourselves as biological beings first and spiritual beings second. of course evolution of the biological being facilitates greater spiritual expression in the same way that the evolution of an iPhone allows greater functionality. In terms of human life experience, the evolution of the physical enables evolution of the spiritual - which is essentially the main business of being.

But within that logic is a vast complexity of dramas that may embrace Bruce's notions.

Once we allow that we are 'made' [buy not in a mafia kind of way], we can start to imagine how and why - if that matters. By that I mean that if we accept that the imperative of being 'made' is to progress our evolution, there is only a limited utility in mulling over the how and why questions - but may be necessary for some as part of their evolution. Maybe this like getting addicted to Ancestory.com.

For me the value of what Bruce is up to lies in the virtue of 'waking up' from the fog of Darwinian delusion. So please do let us dare to imagine some alternative story - which, no matter how wild it may seem, can't be nuttier than the notion we evolved entirely by chance from primates. What Bruce has offered is somewhat more evidence based than Genesis - and this is a great place to start.
 

Alex

Administrator
#23
Once we escape from the gravity of materialism and the idea that we evolved from primates by sheer dint of chance does not wash. The ancient traditions are quite clear that we were 'made' - which is not an objectionable notion when we stop being precious and materialistic about it.

The stuff about ET and hybridisation isn't a problem when we stop reflexively seeing ourselves as biological beings first and spiritual beings second.
well put.


of course evolution of the biological being facilitates greater spiritual expression in the same way that the evolution of an iPhone allows greater functionality.
maybe, then again maybe it's about diversity... consciousness expressed in as many different ways as possible.

mediums will frequently talk about spirits who choose to occupy the life of a down syndrome person for example
 
#24
Great interview... will have to listen a 2nd time.

The idea that we are being crafted and grafted and pruned and cultivated by beings that have historically been called gods and spirits and angels and demons seems more and more obvious all the time. It certainly strikes a chord with my Christians roots.

We're worried about our creation (AI) gaining autonomy and destroying us... wonder if our "gods" are starting to worry about the same from us. Granted...we're a ways off from reverse engineering the UFOs (I think ) but hard to gauge where the knee in the exponential curve takes off.

An idea occurred to me recently... analogous to the cosmologists saying the universe could be open, closed, or flat... we could say that for any system of rules it could be open, closed, or flat... meaning that some systems of rules have the potential for a mechanism within the structure to re-engineer the entire structure. We think of the enormous distance and time encapsulating us as a barrier to universal expansion, but perhaps this is like one bubble in an ice cube feeling hopeless about communicating with another bubble in an ice cube... all that is required is a phase change and then anything is possible.
 
#25
OK, on my third listening... and slept on this for a bit too.

I am am evolutionist and skeptic who believes that our sol-abiogenesis alternative to Earth's life-origins is only one alternative which we must consider. I like that alternative, but at the same time, I hold the idea that this planet possibly-or-likely has been in the 'inventory' or domain of another (set of) civilizations for X period of time, to be the Necessary Alternative. To ignore this alternative placeholder construct (it is not a hypothesis yet) is pseudoscience. We have a cadre of fake skeptics marching around promoting their single-answer pseudoscience, who use social derision and intimidation in order to enforce their beliefs.

Kudos to Bruce for having the mental bandwidth to propose this, and the courage to make it known.

First DNA is a true code, the debate is over - neither biologists, evolutionists, nor bio-geneticists are trained to recognize code. It does not matter how many phyla one has studied/memorized, such a person is speaking out of school. 'Code' is the domain of cryptologists, communications systems designers, systems engineers, computational physicists and theoretical statisticians. Nassim Taleb is more highly qualified to speak of DNA as a set of ergodicity, than is Richard Dawkins. This is a reality which our religious refuse to accept - we have to side-step them and simply move on. Shake off the false stigma given this idea - and continue with ethical science.

"The whole system is more fake than it is real", laments Alex in this show. "[That's not the way it's supposed to work. Controlling this narrative is at the core of social control and engineering.]"
___________________________________

"I had to take it chunk by chunk and break it down and process it a bit." - Alex. Agreed. I take a shot below at breaking down the propositional structure of this proto-hypothesis here:

I→ Inductive Predicate - Original (not First) Americans resemble Aboriginal Australians of 20 - 40,000 ya
∧ Heteroduction point - Conservatism and dishonesty favoring the Clovis paradigm, holds too much power​
∧ Heteroduction point - Field is over-dominated by Europeans and their North American allies (The Royal 'We')​
I→ Inductive Predicate - A set of consilient events in Australia exist, which are compelling​
∧ Deductive inconsistency between genetic and archeo-datings for 'Out of Africa' singular migration hypothesis​
Into Africa 73 Kya
∧ Eurasia migrations Out of Africa 50-60 Kya
∧ Ocean coastal navigation from Australia to Africa is a very natural outcome of social-survival activity, even in paleo-antiquity​
D→ Deductive Predicate - The genomic regions in which the principal homo HAR changes occurred are 'highly conserved' (change is extraordinarily rare) regions of the genome which had not changed (and have not changed in pan troglodytes) for 300 My.​
∧ This same ergodicity repeated over and over at least 43 (maybe hundreds) times inside this highly conserved and functionally constrained region of homo genome​
∧ These areas are not mere genes, rather they are switching centers (like the FoxP2 region)​
∧ These same changes were not paralleled inside other hominin, and should have had analogue progressions occur​
∧ The HAR changes were enormously successful on the first try, as there existed no neutral interea mutations in the conserved genome​
A→ Anecdote - Altruinga?- When the First Ancestors were created: a story resides in cultural memory of the Aboriginal Australian, wherein the distant past a craft came to Earth in the past (Dream Time) and both served to launch mankind, and as well, create spirit archetype objects of a specific nature and purpose.​
∧ Spirit archetypes (somewhat might be analogous to AI or Bracewell probes) were placed into certain artifacts (be they marked stones or polished skulls) which serve to deliver key information to mankind about its origins​
∧ These archetype objects can download information into the mind of a person who has the shamanic capacity to receive such​
I→ Inductive Predicate - Tektites exist on only four places on the Globe (called Strewn Fields). While tektites are odd in and of themselves, the Australian tektites are of a particular curious and perhaps compelling nature.​
∧ The Australian tektite strewn field demarks a time at 780 Kya
∧ The Australian tektite strewn field is enormous, 10% of Earth's surface area​
∧ No impact crater has been associated with the Australian tektite strewn field, unlike the other three​
∧ The iron in these A-tektites, because of its patina tends to be conserved for a very long time, unaltered​
∧ The isotopic ratios in these A-tektites indicates an other-than-solar system origin​
∧ The A-tektites show indications of cryo-vacuum-origin (being created in a cold vacuum space)​
A→ Anecdote - A character named 'Valerie' is introduced (?) - who seems to indicate that she received a spirit archetype device download about a crystalline craft that was blown out of space around 780 Kya
⊨ Argument - 780 Kya an event happened which changed the natural progression of the genus homo into an accelerated and directed ergodicity.​
∴ The Australian tektite field was formed from the destruction of a large body in Earth's orbit about 780 Kya
∴ The HAR transitions in the homo lineage occurred in the 780 Kya timeframe and show first in Aboriginal peoples​
∴ Spirit archetype device downloads suggested a history of mankind which originates at an event in Australia at 780 Kya
∴ Migration models (especially genetic) confirm an Out-of-Australia origins theory​
I hope that I have this argument structure correct. :)
My concern resides in this: That the epistemology we (not the 'Royal We' - LOL!! and a great point by Bruce) are employing to establish the case for this particular proto-hypothesis inside Intervention theory (NOT intelligent design and NOT creation), consists of linear inductive inference. That is, it is an extrapolation from a line drawn through a loose series of Inductive Predicates. The lone Deductive Predicate does not exclusively support the line of inductive inference reason - and this is important. It compels us to move somewhere, but that does not necessarily imply here.

We must be cautious in using linear inductive inference, as it has a high potential to be misleading. It bolsters its case off of confirmation (Anecdote being confirmed by Inductive Predicate) as opposed to prediction-under-risk and deductive consilience (what we need in the end).

This proto-hypothesis must now begin to make specific predictions at risk under the theory. It must step into the world of deductive inference and out of the world of inductive confirmation.

This is an informal critique however, and does not serve to make Bruce wrong as the sponsor of this alternative idea. A skeptic is an ally at this point in the Scientific Method. As a skeptic, I love this progression of thought, and am an ally in its hypothesis development.

Let’s make one thing perfectly clear. The time of science or scientists is not wasted through
competing nor even fringe sponsored theories or observations. The ‘time’ of science is wasted
through the dogma and intransigence of those who patrol its discourse, enforcing single answers
under a pretense of ‘science communication’.
 
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#26
My biggest question regarding all this (if true) is the ultimate motives of our “creators.” Is this motive a metaphysical one or a physical one? Both? If we take abduction accounts seriously, we often see all sorts of parallels between the phenomenon and what we call “spiritually transformative events”, STE’s. According to Dr John Mack, the former head of the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard, patients frequently reported being taken from their room in an out of body state during an abduction experience. There’s been lots of brilliant and credible people who have compiled data like this drawing these parallels between these phenomena, and these parallels certainly don’t stop with OBEs.

All throughout human history people have reported through their spiritual experiences that we are here to experience, grow, and learn and that our bodies are essentially avatars for consciousness to use in order to achieve a certain experience where we attempt to “increase the quality of our consciousness” as Tom Campbell puts it. This physical system offers certain constraints and challenges which, if used properly, will lead to personal growth.

If this is really the way that this physical reality works then it would seem that ET understands this better than us considering their seemingly hyper advanced understanding of consciousness. So, is their motive one in keeping with this idea of the growth of consciousness? Are they tending a garden here that consciousness may then use in order to grow? Or, are their goals more materialistic in nature? People often say during their experiences that they feel connected to everything and everyone. I’d be willing to bet that this connection transcends our Universe and that we share a connection of some sort with all consciousness, irregardless of where it comes from or “resides.”
 
#28
maybe, then again maybe it's about diversity... consciousness expressed in as many different ways as possible.

mediums will frequently talk about spirits who choose to occupy the life of a down syndrome person for example
Sure. Disability is a natural expression of human diversity - only 'normals' are selective about what is attractively diverse and what is 'disability'. Being born into a body that has a significant impairment radically alters the way being human is experienced. From a soul POV there is advantage in a life of radical perception and experience.
 
#29
This proto-hypothesis must now begin to make specific predictions at risk under the theory. It must step into the world of deductive inference and out of the world of inductive confirmation.
Yup! From what I gather that step is assisted by 'downloads' because there isn't the 'evidence' to argue from a position of knowledge drawn from empirical experience. Where do we go next? I like the idea of making a movie because, as a sci fi fan of yore, making a story forces details into expression - notions otherwise floating around with no anchorage.

I am not suggesting the movie is the answer, rather like those seed crystals used to make big chunky crystals - the kind of things that some kids used to do before iPads. Don't think that rushing off down doggedly scientific road is the exclusive, or even the most useful, next step. Let's compare notes - other downloads?

Let's see what is okay to build an imagination on. Imagination is also about asking questions, not just answering them. Maybe a story will trigger past life memories and inspire more fiction - and out of that bright creative cloud will come concrete clues.

My sources say humans have been around 2 m years. But there has to be mechanisms -events to generate a beginning and to facilitate evolution. If we take Australia as an example - the First Fleet did not manifest out of the ethers. There was a history with politics and economics and passions and so on. But none of that was evident to the indigenous population when the strange craft arrived to commence what is a kind of hybridisation - of land, ecology, people and culture.
 
#30
Yup! From what I gather that step is assisted by 'downloads' because there isn't the 'evidence' to argue from a position of knowledge drawn from empirical experience.

Let's see what is okay to build an imagination on. Imagination is also about asking questions, not just answering them. Maybe a story will trigger past life memories and inspire more fiction - and out of that bright creative cloud will come concrete clues.
Yes, this is a line of cultural reasoning which I have been pondering lately. Can there be an ephemeral or cultural epistemology - answers which are developed in the culture zeitgeist - which then bear merit inside the method of ascertaining knowledge. I think there is a role for this. I call it 'sponsorhip under Ockham's Razor' - that period wherein ideas must be given time to ripen, and be aided into the form of a hypothesis. Not be killed in their infancy.

If our material world is constrained to a given set of observable features - and if there is a prejudice towards not walking down a line of epistemology from the erstwhile 'other side' - this might tempt one to divorce this line of knowledge development away from empirical experience. Understood.

However the process of empiricism is not one thing. There is the Experimental Method... and then there is the Scientific Method...

The scientific method has more to do with the logic and integrity of handling ideas and their alternatives. The modes and forms of inference which are used at any point in a deliberation or prosecution. These things are applicable in any realm of endeavor, soft or hard.

For example - the 'NDE Life Review' is deductive in its mode and type of inference. And whether or not that event is real or is simply a pyschological construct, this is rigorously so (they just possess a skill at enacting deduction that we do not, LOL!!)

And as they say in maths, we are not inventing maths - we invent the symbols to describe it, but we only discover its tenets. Even so, in the spiritual realm, the ideas of logical critical path, reduction, consilience and falsification apply. They appear to be very big fans of such technique, we are merely here to discover it.
 
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#31
Which mainstream scientists are claiming this tsunami assisted migration theory. Is there a reference?
Yes, some references would help this discussion.

However, you can clearly see the problem with some rather vague conventional ideas that people spread to Australia by rafts, driftwood or whatever.

1) Crossing a vast stretch of water like that requires some planning, and the currents have to be in the correct direction. I.e. people didn't just go for a swim or to fish and find themselves drifting out to sea, and then populate another continent!

2) As Bruce pointed out, you would need at least a small colony to come across at more or less the same time, otherwise they could not breed or support each other.

Thus you can see that conventional explanations are pretty useless.

David
 
#32
Yes, some references would help this discussion.

However, you can clearly see the problem with some rather vague conventional ideas that people spread to Australia by rafts, driftwood or whatever.

1) Crossing a vast stretch of water like that requires some planning, and the currents have to be in the correct direction. I.e. people didn't just go for a swim or to fish and find themselves drifting out to sea, and then populate another continent!

2) As Bruce pointed out, you would need at least a small colony to come across at more or less the same time, otherwise they could not breed or support each other.

Thus you can see that conventional explanations are pretty useless.

David
Well I haven’t seen any ‘conventional explanations’ yet in this thread. You’ve now also thrown out some unreferenced explanations.
 
#33
Hmmm... Bruce appears to be presenting a total straw man of the mainstream position on this. Probably not the only one:

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/245392/

Fetch an atlas. PNG was attached to Australia as one land mass at that time. The ‘vast distances’...? Maybe, not so much. We are well advised not to underestimate the resourcefulness and expertise of our ancestors.
 
#34
Fetch an atlas. PNG was attached to Australia as one land mass at that time. The ‘vast distances’...? Maybe, not so much. We are well advised not to underestimate the resourcefulness and expertise of our ancestors.
Agreed. Coastal navigating the Indian Ocean Rim is very do-able. Read the Enuma Elish and notice how trivially the author therein regarded a three to seven day sail from the Persian Gulf. I have navigated from Djibouti, all through the Red Sea, Arabian Gulf, Pakistani and Indian coasts and into the South Pacific Rim. For a culture to move either way over even 2,000 years would be very straightforward - plenty of good soil, fishing, wildlife, shelter, flora etc.

- except for the Red Sea and Arabian Peninsula/Persian Coast. All the flora there has been decimated by a flood which occurred at some time inside the last 15,000 years. You can see the ancient shorelines receding as you walk through or overfly the Saudi Empty Quarter, very clearly. In the National History Museums in Riyadh and Dubai, they show that many of the villages in the 1700's in the Persian Gulf were merely fishing villages - and not settlements of antiquity akin to what one might see in the Gupta Empire in the Indus Valley, Lampang Thailand or Aboriginal Island cultures. Heck homo heidelbergensis populated areas from India to Africa to the North Coast of Germany, and they were an entirely different species.

Provided that this area was green before this event which left saline and iron oxide infused sand everywhere. Then a continuity of culture from Mozambique through to the Solomon Islands was very achievable in either direction.
 
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#36
Hmmm... Bruce appears to be presenting a total straw man of the mainstream position on this. Probably not the only one:

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/245392/

Fetch an atlas. PNG was attached to Australia as one land mass at that time. The ‘vast distances’...? Maybe, not so much. We are well advised not to underestimate the resourcefulness and expertise of our ancestors.
We were talking about hominins travelling from mainland Southeast Asia to the Indonesian Islands and onwards to Australia, we are not talking about hominins emerging on Papua and then travelling to Australia. The powerful southwesterly currents moving through Wallacea have prevented virtually all flora and fauna from Asia reaching Australia since the landmass diverged (the barrier known as Wallace's Line). I am not sure where the idea emerged that this was a journey from Papua to Australia, but I certainly never suggested such a thing, this would infer hominins evolved directly from primates living in-situ on Sahul for which no evidence currently exists.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...es-rhino-south-east-asia-flores-a8335241.html
"As for how humans crossed the vast expanses of ocean between the two islands, Dr van den Bergh and his team think it is unlikely they constructed rafts of any sort. Instead, he suggests an altogether more extreme mode of transport.

“They may have been caught in a tsunami and carried out to sea – those kinds of freak, random events are probably responsible for these movements of humans and animals,” he said, citing the case of people who were dragged out to sea by the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.


“This region is tectonically active so tsunamis are common and there are big ones every hundred years or so.”"
 
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#37
You talk of a large object in orbit about our planet, that exploded. Since the atmosphere doesn't just end at a certain height, but tapers off exponentially, every sattelite needs some propulsion if it is to remain in orbit. I wonder if it was this mechanism that failed, and the explosion then happened at the edge of space as its orbit decayed. I guess this might still have been near vaccuum so thet the spherical droplets would have formed. Remember NASA would not want to hypothise an actual object in orbit, because as you pointed out, that can only be done deliberately!

David
Thank you for your supportive and helpful comment, I have heard Behe speak a little but I have not erad his books. I would recommend Evolution 2.0 should you want something else in that line of exploration.

The description is of the ship being attacked and blown to bits in orbit. NASA do state in several papers the source body was in orbit, they found only this can mesh with the formation process of the australite buttons. That leaves us with a glaring question, why have they not flagged up this source body as an extraordinary anomaly? A supposedly captured comet of vast size, while physics informs us small planets can't capture comets.
 
#38
thx. also saw this (I guess she missed the newsletter on Sai Baba's many foibles):
In April of 2011, Cosmic Sai Baba shared that " I have come to reassure you that the physical body of Sai Baba is not leaving, not leaving at all ... just a little adjustment in the body ... the same that is happening on Earth and all the people upon it." Click here to read - and view a special video about this Special Message by Cosmic Sai Baba
While I value the account of what happened to Valerie and the other 30+ people involved in the case at hand (as per her book) I prefer not to associate with her extended personal New Age positions or affiliations. They may be relevant in understanding why she was OK with all this stuff happening to her, but beyond that, they are simply her personal beliefs and leanings.
 
#39
You did a good job with this one Alex.I have checked out other youtube interviews with Bruce R. Fenton and he can come across as a crackpot, as he often 'starts at the beginning' and takes too long to get to the science, despite talking very fast. But you help him to focus on the anomalies and the science and to make it real. Once you're into the story, the really weird stuff simply accents the science, so he comes across as a genuine explorer doing very exciting work. Well done to you both. And thank you.
What is the measure of a crackpot? If my life is full of anomalous experiences and I share those does that by default make me a crackpot? However, all of this material will likely be considered the rambling of crackpots by the materialist orthodoxy.
 
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