Bruce Greyson, Near-Death Experience Pioneer |494|

#41
nice... agreed.

But doesn't this still leaves open question about the connection between Medical Technology like resuscitation and our understanding of the near-death experience.
If it was a Skeptiko episode on that specific topic, it might open with "Michael Corleone" from "The God Father", "Every time I think I'm out, they drag me back in".

The soul is switching constructs/paradigms/focus and the resuscitation procedures "shock" the soul back to the old paradigm of the physical, often quite literally, but it's a reminder, "Remember! You can be on the physical construct. Think about it!"

At the point when resuscitation occurs, continued focus on the material paradigm is still possible. If continued focus on the material paradigm is no longer viable, this is expressed via a body that is too damaged to repair. The soul has a new phase of its journey on which to embark.

IMO, The cancer ruined the body, the car hit the body and smashed it, etc. because the soul was ready to express in different ways. Sometimes the soul is preparing to express in ways other than the physical and begins to focus on another paradigm. There is a heart attack. And there is an NDE. During the NDE the soul is convinced to stay focused on the physical paradigm for a while longer. Resuscitation may or may not have played a role in the soul re-focusing on the physical. And sometimes resuscitation is just the old paradigm competing for the focus of attention of the soul with another paradigm. Sometime the physical wins out (for a while).

Nothing is physically going anywhere. It's all awareness and where awareness is looking. When we talk about about "leaving the body" we are still stuck in the physical paradigm where there are solid objects and geometry and time.

I know that you know, it's hard to discuss these matters outside of the language of the physical paradigm because our language is based on the physical. Poetry, music and other art attempts to get beyond it, but only barely does at best. We are so focused on the physical, even if we think we can see beyond it, that we still interpret everything from the physical perspective. Even in knowing that, it's still a trap.

Think about psychokinesis and materializations of "physical" objects. I have witnessed this myself and am convinced it is real. That set of phenomena proves that "physical reality" is false as an end all beat all state - or even a necessary temporary state. I don't recommend jumping off a cliff or running face first into a wall, but there are circumstances/conditions under which the paradigm fails (long discussion as to what/how/why, but it is demonstrable nonetheless).
 
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#43
I would, however, suggest, that he is getting the paradigm wrong re; the brain and the soul. IMO, nothing is leaving the body during NDEs or even at death.
My very limited experience with Spirits has taught me that a Spirit can condense down to nothing more than a Spark, -a very fast Spark. Though amazed at witnessing this, it made sense to me... so we are a tiny part of That Great Being of Light that is reported in some near death experiences I thought... so this is the Source of Consciousness. A Spark, capable of operating a biological marvel we call a body...
 
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#44
Let's not put the acceleration before the pressing of the gas pedal. Also, we need to be conscious of many things around us before we can invent something like sunblock. I do not think that consciousness doesn't exist, but there is a lot of proof that it comes from things that are not conscience in the way that you and I are right now. Who knows, perhaps we are more "unconscious" in this realm than we were before becoming a part of it. Habit could very well be the anchor of one's demise, yet, it is those habitations that make most feel that they are sure of all things.
Well Shane, if you can help refine the way that I think of this I'd be most grateful, but I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever that we come from unconscious things. Please though, I'm open to being talked through what you know.

To be specific about what definition of consciousness I'm using to help avoid talking past each other as we do this, I am referring to phenomenal consciousness, this "feeling like something to be us". I've personally become convinced that consciousness is all that exists, but I'm excited to be challenged on that.
 
#45
I do not think that consciousness doesn't exist, but there is a lot of proof that it comes from things that are not conscience in the way that you and I are right now.
A lot of people have agonised over this idea, and the Australian philosopher, David Chalmers, summed up the problem in his concept of the hard problem. You can seek out all sorts of steps between a painful stimulus (say) and the sensation of pain, but there are those steps that are purely physical (signals going down nerves, chemicals being released, etc) and then the conscious awareness - which might consist of one or more steps. Nobody has come up with a way of bridging that gap. Put another way, how do you build a machine that can actually feel pain?

David
 
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#46
When I first began practicing Monroe's Gateway Training for OBEs, I was faced w/ the same question: why can't everyone have OBEs? Why do some of us have to learn how? Another phenomenon is the experience of Kali Ma or the Mother. I was told by a devotee that he climbed in a box just like many others had & stayed & tried, but never had the vision, even after several tries, so he lied about seeing her so he could quit. I don't think the Supreme Being plays favorites, but I do think karma & many other factors limit what one can experience. My late uncle got quite angry when I told him that some people appeared to be 'favored by God.' What law says we all have to have the same experience at the same time for it to be valid? I would certainly be quite skeptical of NDEs if everyone had one when they passed, as if it were like taking LSD. Take a drug, hallucinate. Die, see the Absolute. No, I think there are exceptions for a good reason: skepticism is good for everyone, not just scientists. The day I think I have all the answers is the day I stop growing.
It probably has something to do with how you pass away, very violent or soft? I'm agnostic about Karma, most people don't understand what Karma is. Karma is not doing something bad to someone and then getting your just deserts. Bad and good things happen to your throughout life regardless of your sin nature, which we all have. The thing is to repent against it and ask for help to fix it the bets you can and move on.

john
 
#47
Sometimes there are themes. Sometimes they foretell situations, other times they are regarding battles of forces people may describe as good and evil. For example, I went on an impromptu adventure to New York in 1999. I was there for a few months, and I could see the Twin Towers from the flat that I was living in, at Park Slope, Brooklyn. One day, I visited these amazing structures and was absolutely spellbound. I laid down between them on a cement bench for about an hour. Granted, I wasn't new to large buildings, as I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, but these......WOW, they absolutely dwarfed any building that I had ever witnessed, AND THERE WAS TWO OF THEM!

The next day, I had a terrifying dream that they were absolutely obliterated. I couldn't see how they were destroyed in the dream, but I could see that they were being destroyed. The dream was so incredibly vivid, that when I awoke, I was sure they were gone. However, I looked out the window, and they were still there! Two my surprise, about two years later, the disaster happened!
If you get another dream like that, I suggest you send someone a PM about it, or post it somewhere on the forum (actually maybe not something public, because it might bring down the police to find out how you 'really' knew it would happen). Since these are date-stamped, it would provide excellent proof that it was real.

David
 
#48
Well Shane, if you can help refine the way that I think of this I'd be most grateful, but I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever that we come from unconscious things. Please though, I'm open to being talked through what you know.

To be specific about what definition of consciousness I'm using to help avoid talking past each other as we do this, I am referring to phenomenal consciousness, this "feeling like something to be us". I've personally become convinced that consciousness is all that exists, but I'm excited to be challenged on that.
Certainly, I love this topic! I can see it from both perspectives. Let us clarify and reinstate the question at hand: does consciousness arise from unconscious matter, or is consciousness primary?

The "knee-jerk" reaction would be that consciousness is of course the bi-product of physicality! After all, when the doctor taps your knee, as a child during a check up, we all watched our leg involuntarily kick, right? However, both, the doctor and the patient were both conscious during this involuntary phenomenon. This begs the question, can we equate volition to consciousness, or are they perhaps different?

Likewise, when we backtrack to our original point concerning whether or not consciousness arises from unconscious matter, how is it that our physical reactions can be triggered like a billiard ball? I got past that hurdle because of the fact that somebody must be doing the observing and the questioning.....and that observing and questioning is an act of will. This is, fundamentally, why I thought Fredrick Nietzsche was an idiot in so many ways. He often spoke of how he and his colleagues were trying, with all of their might, to remove the concept of "free will." This shit makes absolutely no sense to me. How do you "try" to do anything at all if you don't have the capacity to "try"? Isn't that what free will is? I don't want to go down that Yoda route of "There is no try, only do or not do." That is bullshit! Try is the mental side of everything!

On the other hand, my dream states, as vivid as they are, convince me about the solidarity of consciousness. I have had a handful of lucid dreams in my life, and being the inquisitive type, once I become lucid, I like to question those beings in my dreams about their thoughts of their existence. From what I can tell, they certainly think that they are real. I remember having a conversation with one of them, telling them that they are a figment of my imagination, and when I woke, they would cease to exist. This "being" vehemently disagreed with me. It told me that there are consequences in the dream world just as there are consequences in what we call the "physical world."

What do you think consciousness is?
 
#49
If you get another dream like that, I suggest you send someone a PM about it, or post it somewhere on the forum (actually maybe not something public, because it might bring down the police to find out how you 'really' knew it would happen). Since these are date-stamped, it would provide excellent proof that it was real.

David
I had a similar dream of that nature that was quite overwhelming. This occurred long before the plandemic, and I don't have a date or time stamp for it, but I am estimating it was about three years ago. The gist of it was this: the entire United States of America went absolutely ape shit on each other, with people killing each other all over the streets, freeways, and cities. I am not a "conspiracy guy," and nor did I even look into "conspiracy theories" regarding A.I. Regardless, the dream had to do with how all people were deeply invested in social media, and somehow, the internet became sentient. What complicated the matter was that nobody thought this was possible. It simply turned everybody against each other in this virtual world that they had all invested themselves in. The theme was that they only needed to put their phones down, and they would be free, but they were all far too invested in it already. In essence, something with no physical power, whatsoever, caused mankind to terminate itself.
 
#50
I had a similar dream of that nature that was quite overwhelming. This occurred long before the plandemic, and I don't have a date or time stamp for it, but I am estimating it was about three years ago. The gist of it was this: the entire United States of America went absolutely ape shit on each other, with people killing each other all over the streets, freeways, and cities. I am not a "conspiracy guy," and nor did I even look into "conspiracy theories" regarding A.I. Regardless, the dream had to do with how all people were deeply invested in social media, and somehow, the internet became sentient. What complicated the matter was that nobody thought this was possible. It simply turned everybody against each other in this virtual world that they had all invested themselves in. The theme was that they only needed to put their phones down, and they would be free, but they were all far too invested in it already. In essence, something with no physical power, whatsoever, caused mankind to terminate itself.
I basically don't believe in AI, except in the sense that if people assume it knows best, some awful mistakes could get made - anyone want to give the nuclear button to an AI? AI is a materialistic construct - based on the assumption that humans are equivalent to automatons.

That said, you might have dreamed precognitively about the situation just before the elections - who knows?

David
 
#51
Certainly, I love this topic! I can see it from both perspectives. Let us clarify and reinstate the question at hand: does consciousness arise from unconscious matter, or is consciousness primary?

The "knee-jerk" reaction would be that consciousness is of course the bi-product of physicality! After all, when the doctor taps your knee, as a child during a check up, we all watched our leg involuntarily kick, right? However, both, the doctor and the patient were both conscious during this involuntary phenomenon. This begs the question, can we equate volition to consciousness, or are they perhaps different?

Likewise, when we backtrack to our original point concerning whether or not consciousness arises from unconscious matter, how is it that our physical reactions can be triggered like a billiard ball? I got past that hurdle because of the fact that somebody must be doing the observing and the questioning.....and that observing and questioning is an act of will. This is, fundamentally, why I thought Fredrick Nietzsche was an idiot in so many ways. He often spoke of how he and his colleagues were trying, with all of their might, to remove the concept of "free will." This shit makes absolutely no sense to me. How do you "try" to do anything at all if you don't have the capacity to "try"? Isn't that what free will is? I don't want to go down that Yoda route of "There is no try, only do or not do." That is bullshit! Try is the mental side of everything!

On the other hand, my dream states, as vivid as they are, convince me about the solidarity of consciousness. I have had a handful of lucid dreams in my life, and being the inquisitive type, once I become lucid, I like to question those beings in my dreams about their thoughts of their existence. From what I can tell, they certainly think that they are real. I remember having a conversation with one of them, telling them that they are a figment of my imagination, and when I woke, they would cease to exist. This "being" vehemently disagreed with me. It told me that there are consequences in the dream world just as there are consequences in what we call the "physical world."

What do you think consciousness is?
How do involuntary movements support the idea that consciousness comes from unconscious matter? Could you elaborate please?

I agree that will is a thing, but if your consciousness or mind can affect change in the universe, we have a really serious problem in conventional thinking, because now consciousness is like a force, or a selector of quantum possibilities. Either way, that doesn't seem reducible, so why not call it fundamental along with gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force & the strong nuclear force?

In an emergent model, we need this new force or selector of will to pop into existence mid way through the universes runtime and that's just not how we do Physics.

I think idealism is the most likely explanation because conscious will has to get underneath physics as we know it to have any sort of causality. I am provisionally sold on the idea that physics comes from mind, not mind coming from physics.

I'll show you the flowchart of my thoughts that convinces me about this. Open to new evidence and reason though. :)

Eager for your thoughts Shane!

ETA: I don't think global physics comes from out personal human minds, but the larger mind we dissociate from.
 

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#52
How do involuntary movements support the idea that consciousness comes from unconscious matter? Could you elaborate please?

I agree that will is a thing, but if your consciousness or mind can affect change in the universe, we have a really serious problem in conventional thinking, because now consciousness is like a force, or a selector of quantum possibilities. Either way, that doesn't seem reducible, so why not call it fundamental along with gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force & the strong nuclear force?

In an emergent model, we need this new force or selector of will to pop into existence mid way through the universes runtime and that's just not how we do Physics.

I think idealism is the most likely explanation because conscious will has to get underneath physics as we know it to have any sort of causality. I am provisionally sold on the idea that physics comes from mind, not mind coming from physics.

I'll show you the flowchart of my thoughts that convinces me about this. Open to new evidence and reason though. :)

Eager for your thoughts Shane!

ETA: I don't think global physics comes from out personal human minds, but the larger mind we dissociate from.
This is very good, IMO.

I tried twice, quite awkwardly,to explain a similar understanding to Alex (up-thread).

If you sit down at a poker table in Las Vegas, you don't get to call out, "Black Jack" and take all of the chips off the table. You agreed to play poker. You bought in and agreed to the rules. You could play Black Jack, but you have to go sit at an appropriate table and agree to those rules. Stupid analogy perhaps, though I think that is how "reality" (including physical reality) works. It's a paradigm, a wave length, one of many, that your awareness can buy into. In buying in, it agrees to all of the rules - or, even if it doesn't totally, the "peer pressure" of the other awarenesses in that paradigm forces the agreement. This isn't something you can "think" your way into, or out of. Once you're thinking, you've already bought in, as thinking is a way of perceiving within the physical paradigm. The buy in is something much deeper; "will" - as you put it - or "intent". In the physical paradigm, we are not even aware of the focus of our will and how it supports/maintains the paradigm along with all of the other wills doing the same. It is truly "magic" that creates and binds the paradigm. The magic is created from the energy that is expended by all of the focused awarenesses. All my opinion, of course. Not preaching here.

Yet sometimes we can stop the paradigm. Sometimes our soul's will breaks through the magical force and our focus shifts. When that happens the familiar paradigm begins to collapse and new ones leak through. Meditation can accomplish this, as can psychedelics, fasting, repetitive activities, chanting and shocks to the physical construct of the body. Great love can do it too (and, I suppose, great hate as well). All of these things cause the thinking - the inner dialogue that tells us how what is possible and not - to quiet down. Sometimes just feeling good and being in a fine "personal groove" can get you there. "Can" get you there under the right circumstances. None of those are guaranteed to do it for everyone. The stars have to align. The gravitational pull created by all of that perceptual energy is tough to break through. The soul must have enough energy - or the event must be shocking enough to smash the focus thoroughly (e.g. "death"). Even in death, some souls remain attached to the physical paradigm enough to stick around and cause mischief and to see themselves as having a body, a house, a garden, etc.

I offer as evidence telekinesis (physical objects being moved by non-physical means, by spirits or by incarnate people), precognition and powerful synchronicities (= perfect timing and great meaning). Many sane intelligent people have experienced these events and have been most impressed by them. I know I have been. I have seen/experienced all three types of those events more than once and to my satisfaction that there was no "rational" explanation for them.

If those events are real - and I'm convinced they are - then the physical world must only be a construct. Yet the physical world seems so real and so ultimate. Again, that is because we are so familiar with the construct/paradigm and so trapped by the Magic that we are usually stuck in it until our soul energy is freed to focus on some other aspect of reality. The mind reels at impending death and the inner voice is silenced. The soul's energy is set free to re-focus where its predilections wish it to. The soul is not bound by beliefs or thoughts. Those are objects of the paradigm. The soul is what it is. This is very hard for a scientist to understand because the scientist thinks he can think through anything. Thinking is how he perceives (or he thinks it is). He will filter out anything that is not thought. He cannot understand that there are other ways of perceiving that are just as valid and effective. When you are having an OBE or NDE or psi you are not thinking! You are encountering information via a different means. I know this for sure and NDErs and others have tried to explain this over and over, and then give up leaving it at the statement that there are no words for what they experienced. Words are of the physical paradigm, just as thinking is. Spirits in after death communications also say this.

Getting back to NDEs and Dr. Greyson, I used to have OBEs. In fact, for a period of maybe a year/year and half, I could induce one at will and did a lot of experimenting; testing to see if I could "come back" with verifiable detailed evidence that could not have been obtained by normal means (including subconscious means). I satisfied myself that the OBEs were real perceptions of events beyond my physical and even temporal location. I also used to think that something had left my body and traveled to times and places. I no longer think that something left my body, though I am still convinced that the experiences were totally real. Why I did I change my mind about that? I no longer can induce OBEs at will. I very rarely have them anymore; maybe once every two or three years. When I do, now that I am older and more solid in character, the sensation is different, though the accuracy of the information is still spot on. Now I experience the event as if it is a visionary state. I am not aware of my physical body, but I no longer feel like my awareness is rising out of my physical body and traveling. It's more like I am immersed in a very clear vision with all kinds of understanding and perception capabilities that I don't normally have. IMO, the leaving the body perception is an interpretation. I mean, you are leaving the body in that your are leaving that entire paradigm, but it's a matter of focus of awareness on a new paradigm, not literally leaving as in a car pulling out of a garage.

I'm rambling again. There are no words for any of this. If you've been there, you know. Otherwise......
 
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#53
This is very good, IMO.

I tried twice, quite awkwardly,to explain a similar understanding to Alex (up-thread).

If you sit down at a poker table in Las Vegas, you don't get to call out, "Black Jack" and take all of the chips off the table. You agreed to play poker. You bought in and agreed to the rules. You could play Black Jack, but you have to go sit at an appropriate table and agree to those rules. Stupid analogy perhaps, though I think that is how "reality" (including physical reality) works. It's a paradigm, a wave length, one of many, that your awareness can buy into. In buying in, it agrees to all of the rules - or, even if it doesn't totally, the "peer pressure" of the other awarenesses in that paradigm forces the agreement. This isn't something you can "think" your way into, or out of. Once you're thinking, you've already bought in, as thinking is a way of perceiving within the physical paradigm. The buy in is something much deeper; "will" - as you put it - or "intent". In the physical paradigm, we are not even aware of the focus of our will and how it supports/maintains the paradigm along with all of the other wills doing the same. It is truly "magic" that creates and binds the paradigm. The magic is created from the energy that is expended by all of the focused awarenesses. All my opinion, of course. Not preaching here.

Yet sometimes we can stop the paradigm. Sometimes our soul's will breaks through the magical force and our focus shifts. When that happens the familiar paradigm begins to collapse and new ones leak through. Meditation can accomplish this, as can psychedelics, fasting, repetitive activities, chanting and shocks to the physical construct of the body. Great love can do it too (and, I suppose, great hate as well). All of these things cause the thinking - the inner dialogue that tells us how what is possible and not - to quiet down. Sometimes just feeling good and being in a fine "personal groove" can get you there. "Can" get you there under the right circumstances. None of those are guaranteed to do it for everyone. The stars have to align. The gravitational pull created by all of that perceptual energy is tough to break through. The soul must have enough energy - or the event must be shocking enough to smash the focus thoroughly (e.g. "death"). Even in death, some souls remain attached to the physical paradigm enough to stick around and cause mischief and to see themselves as having a body, a house, a garden, etc.

I offer as evidence telekinesis (physical objects being moved by non-physical means, by spirits or by incarnate people), precognition and powerful synchronicities (= perfect timing and great meaning). Many sane intelligent people have experienced these events and have been most impressed by them. I know I have been. I have seen/experienced all three types of those events more than once and to my satisfaction that there was no "rational" explanation for them.

If those events are real - and I'm convinced they are - then the physical world must only be a construct. Yet the physical world seems so real and so ultimate. Again, that is because we are so familiar with the construct/paradigm and so trapped by the Magic that we are usually stuck in it until our soul energy is freed to focus on some other aspect of reality. The mind reels at impending death and the inner voice is silenced. The soul's energy is set free to re-focus where its predilections wish it to. The soul is not bound by beliefs or thoughts. Those are objects of the paradigm. The soul is what it is. This is very hard for a scientist to understand because the scientist thinks he can think through anything. Thinking is how he perceives (or he thinks it is). He will filter out anything that is not thought. He cannot understand that there are other ways of perceiving that are just as valid and effective. When you are having an OBE or NDE or psi you are not thinking! You are encountering information via a different means. I know this for sure and NDErs and others have tried to explain this over and over, and then give up leaving it at the statement that there are no words for what they experienced. Words are of the physical paradigm, just as thinking is. Spirits in after death communications also say this.

Getting back to NDEs and Dr. Greyson, I used to have OBEs. In fact, for a period of maybe a year/year and half, I could induce one at will and did a lot of experimenting; testing to see if I could "come back" with verifiable detailed evidence that could not have been obtained by normal means (including subconscious means). I satisfied myself that the OBEs were real perceptions of events beyond my physical and even temporal location. I also used to think that something had left my body and traveled to times and places. I no longer think that something left my body, though I am still convinced that the experiences were totally real. Why I did I change my mind about that? I no longer can induce OBEs at will. I very rarely have them anymore; maybe once every two or three years. When I do, now that I am older and more solid in character, the sensation is different, though the accuracy of the information is still spot on. Now I experience the event as if it is a visionary state. I am not aware of my physical body, but I no longer feel like my awareness is rising out of my physical body and traveling. It's more like I am immersed in a very clear vision with all kinds of understanding and perception capabilities that I don't normally have. IMO, the leaving the body perception is an interpretation. I mean, you are leaving the body in that your are leaving that entire paradigm, but it's a matter of focus of awareness on a new paradigm, not literally leaving as in a car pulling out of a garage.

I'm rambling again. There are no words for any of this. If you've been there, you know. Otherwise......
It was rather lovely to read Eric, thank you. When I had my first OBE, I didn't want to call it an OBE. I called it a non-body experience. I had this feeling that my body may have been more like a dream or an experience than me literally being a thing that is within it. I am very sympathetic to using the language of Out of Body Experiences, but it implies to me that spiritual realms are out there, somewhere in this physical world if only you just travelled far enough, or that to get there requires some sort of spiritual wormhole to cross dimensions. That to me is like saying the real world in the Matrix was in the Matrix, you just had to travel far enough in the Matrix to get to it, which is obviously not right. However, I know roughly what people mean and I am a pedant so I don't bring it up all that much ;)

Really interesting.
 
#54
It was rather lovely to read Eric, thank you. When I had my first OBE, I didn't want to call it an OBE. I called it a non-body experience. I had this feeling that my body may have been more like a dream or an experience than me literally being a thing that is within it. I am very sympathetic to using the language of Out of Body Experiences, but it implies to me that spiritual realms are out there, somewhere in this physical world if only you just travelled far enough, or that to get there requires some sort of spiritual wormhole to cross dimensions. That to me is like saying the real world in the Matrix was in the Matrix, you just had to travel far enough in the Matrix to get to it, which is obviously not right. However, I know roughly what people mean and I am a pedant so I don't bring it up all that much ;)

Really interesting.
There is no inside or outside, or there or here, or yesterday or tomorrow. Those are all constructs within this particular world we build because we are awareness and awareness is a creative force. We just have forgotten that we created this as we are immersed in the creation. We create other worlds too and will keep on doing that until we realize the power of God which is what we are and only what we are. Then we will create some more and forget for a while again. Round and round it goes. It's all cool; not a bad thing. We're learning the rules of creation and how to spin more glorious realms, just as others are doing in other bands of awareness.
 
#55
This is very good, IMO.

I tried twice, quite awkwardly,to explain a similar understanding to Alex (up-thread).

If you sit down at a poker table in Las Vegas, you don't get to call out, "Black Jack" and take all of the chips off the table. You agreed to play poker. You bought in and agreed to the rules. You could play Black Jack, but you have to go sit at an appropriate table and agree to those rules. Stupid analogy perhaps, though I think that is how "reality" (including physical reality) works. It's a paradigm, a wave length, one of many, that your awareness can buy into. In buying in, it agrees to all of the rules - or, even if it doesn't totally, the "peer pressure" of the other awarenesses in that paradigm forces the agreement. This isn't something you can "think" your way into, or out of. Once you're thinking, you've already bought in, as thinking is a way of perceiving within the physical paradigm. The buy in is something much deeper; "will" - as you put it - or "intent". In the physical paradigm, we are not even aware of the focus of our will and how it supports/maintains the paradigm along with all of the other wills doing the same. It is truly "magic" that creates and binds the paradigm. The magic is created from the energy that is expended by all of the focused awarenesses. All my opinion, of course. Not preaching here.

Yet sometimes we can stop the paradigm. Sometimes our soul's will breaks through the magical force and our focus shifts. When that happens the familiar paradigm begins to collapse and new ones leak through. Meditation can accomplish this, as can psychedelics, fasting, repetitive activities, chanting and shocks to the physical construct of the body. Great love can do it too (and, I suppose, great hate as well). All of these things cause the thinking - the inner dialogue that tells us how what is possible and not - to quiet down. Sometimes just feeling good and being in a fine "personal groove" can get you there. "Can" get you there under the right circumstances. None of those are guaranteed to do it for everyone. The stars have to align. The gravitational pull created by all of that perceptual energy is tough to break through. The soul must have enough energy - or the event must be shocking enough to smash the focus thoroughly (e.g. "death"). Even in death, some souls remain attached to the physical paradigm enough to stick around and cause mischief and to see themselves as having a body, a house, a garden, etc.

I offer as evidence telekinesis (physical objects being moved by non-physical means, by spirits or by incarnate people), precognition and powerful synchronicities (= perfect timing and great meaning). Many sane intelligent people have experienced these events and have been most impressed by them. I know I have been. I have seen/experienced all three types of those events more than once and to my satisfaction that there was no "rational" explanation for them.

If those events are real - and I'm convinced they are - then the physical world must only be a construct. Yet the physical world seems so real and so ultimate. Again, that is because we are so familiar with the construct/paradigm and so trapped by the Magic that we are usually stuck in it until our soul energy is freed to focus on some other aspect of reality. The mind reels at impending death and the inner voice is silenced. The soul's energy is set free to re-focus where its predilections wish it to. The soul is not bound by beliefs or thoughts. Those are objects of the paradigm. The soul is what it is. This is very hard for a scientist to understand because the scientist thinks he can think through anything. Thinking is how he perceives (or he thinks it is). He will filter out anything that is not thought. He cannot understand that there are other ways of perceiving that are just as valid and effective. When you are having an OBE or NDE or psi you are not thinking! You are encountering information via a different means. I know this for sure and NDErs and others have tried to explain this over and over, and then give up leaving it at the statement that there are no words for what they experienced. Words are of the physical paradigm, just as thinking is. Spirits in after death communications also say this.

Getting back to NDEs and Dr. Greyson, I used to have OBEs. In fact, for a period of maybe a year/year and half, I could induce one at will and did a lot of experimenting; testing to see if I could "come back" with verifiable detailed evidence that could not have been obtained by normal means (including subconscious means). I satisfied myself that the OBEs were real perceptions of events beyond my physical and even temporal location. I also used to think that something had left my body and traveled to times and places. I no longer think that something left my body, though I am still convinced that the experiences were totally real. Why I did I change my mind about that? I no longer can induce OBEs at will. I very rarely have them anymore; maybe once every two or three years. When I do, now that I am older and more solid in character, the sensation is different, though the accuracy of the information is still spot on. Now I experience the event as if it is a visionary state. I am not aware of my physical body, but I no longer feel like my awareness is rising out of my physical body and traveling. It's more like I am immersed in a very clear vision with all kinds of understanding and perception capabilities that I don't normally have. IMO, the leaving the body perception is an interpretation. I mean, you are leaving the body in that your are leaving that entire paradigm, but it's a matter of focus of awareness on a new paradigm, not literally leaving as in a car pulling out of a garage.

I'm rambling again. There are no words for any of this. If you've been there, you know. Otherwise......
Wow Eric,

I was just rambling through the replies to Bruce Greyson's podcast, and I came across your amazing mini-essay!

Do you associate with any group of like-minded people - maybe some structure looser than a religion?

What you say sounds intriguing, though demoting thought itself to something belonging to the construct seems a bit extreme. I mean I sort of get the idea that we can get downloads of information in certain circumstances (though I haven't had one), but that isn't quite the same.

For example, if life on earth was designed, rather than being a result of chance, some entity must have put one hell of a lot of thought into the process (sorry for keeping coming back to this theme, but I feel it is important).

BTW, some people - e.g. Jurgen Ziewe - write as if they think and make decisions in their OBEs/lucid dreams.

I reckon Alex could usefully do a podcast with you.

David
 
#56
Wow Eric,

I was just rambling through the replies to Bruce Greyson's podcast, and I came across your amazing mini-essay!

Do you associate with any group of like-minded people - maybe some structure looser than a religion?

What you say sounds intriguing, though demoting thought itself to something belonging to the construct seems a bit extreme. I mean I sort of get the idea that we can get downloads of information in certain circumstances (though I haven't had one), but that isn't quite the same.

For example, if life on earth was designed, rather than being a result of chance, some entity must have put one hell of a lot of thought into the process (sorry for keeping coming back to this theme, but I feel it is important).

BTW, some people - e.g. Jurgen Ziewe - write as if they think and make decisions in their OBEs/lucid dreams.

I reckon Alex could usefully do a podcast with you.

David
I think it's important to remember random chance is another one of those faith based belief systems just like believing consciousness is emergent, though I'm so glad you mentioned it, because I think it might be time to start putting together some articles of faith for Physicalism ;) Hehehe

The problem with random chance is when you have consciousness as a doing thing, then it seems silly not to involve it as something that steers evolution.

There is still room for random chance if you want it, but it's no longer exclusively what's shaping things and more importantly, even then, what is randomness but something we can't spot a pattern in? How do we know it matches up with this intuitive concept of something that has absolutely no pattern? Half life decay appears to be completely random, but plot a lot of it and you'll end up with a really clear pattern.
 
#58
Wow Eric,

I was just rambling through the replies to Bruce Greyson's podcast, and I came across your amazing mini-essay!

Do you associate with any group of like-minded people - maybe some structure looser than a religion?

What you say sounds intriguing, though demoting thought itself to something belonging to the construct seems a bit extreme. I mean I sort of get the idea that we can get downloads of information in certain circumstances (though I haven't had one), but that isn't quite the same.

For example, if life on earth was designed, rather than being a result of chance, some entity must have put one hell of a lot of thought into the process (sorry for keeping coming back to this theme, but I feel it is important).

BTW, some people - e.g. Jurgen Ziewe - write as if they think and make decisions in their OBEs/lucid dreams.

I reckon Alex could usefully do a podcast with you.

David
David,
No group, system or society. Just a lone wolf who has explored, assessed, explored some more - and, admittedly, leveraged the ideas of others to some extent. Kept those that fit and tossed those that do not (the majority).

Thinking is the currency of this construct. In other worlds it is not; or far less so.

The entity creating this world is all of us together. There may have been some help from something bigger, but this world only exists because we are all focusing our energy and awareness on defining and sustaining it. That is all there to reality. Any reality.
 
#59
I basically don't believe in AI, except in the sense that if people assume it knows best, some awful mistakes could get made - anyone want to give the nuclear button to an AI? AI is a materialistic construct - based on the assumption that humans are equivalent to automatons.

That said, you might have dreamed precognitively about the situation just before the elections - who knows?

David
Artificial Intelligence could be the wrong description of what causing the chaos in the dream. Let me describe further. Somehow, through the medium of social media, everybody began to turn on each other. Something was able to press everybody's psychological buttons concerning anybody else that they interacted or cared about. The confusion that ensued was so bad that one could not drive on the freeway, walk outside, or even stay at home without chaos everywhere. People where literally trying to kill each other at every point you turn because they had completely invested their selves in whatever their cellphones told them.
 
#60
just like believing consciousness is emergent...
great discussion :)

one thing I always thought was funny about Consciousness and emergence is that it seems kind of true but not in the way that materialist talk about. for example, I just had a lucid dream the other night and it reminded me how much I am a co-creator of my reality/experience, but not THE creator. of course the "I am" language stuff gets in the way but you know what I mean :)
 
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