Can we even talk about climate change?

Bart V

straw materialist
Member
#23
No I don't - however I think that the fact that NASA gets a substantial chunk of its money from investigating CC distorts its conclusions. Remember the scientists who got paid by the tobacco companies to research the consequences of smoking - not surprisingly many of them came to the conclusion that it was harmless. There was, for example, the theory put forward that some people smoked because they had some sort of discomfort/itch in their lungs which would ultimately develop into lung cancer - thus skewing the statistics!

Science only works if the same amount of money flows whatever the results.

David
Have you ever read the book "merchants of doubt"? Or the documentary of the same title?
Turns out that payed tobacco harm deniers, and payed climate change deniers, use the same tactics, or are sometimes even the same people.
 
#25
Merchants of doubt
The documentary, free version:

Yes, I believe this did happen. Indeed they promoted a theory that certain people who were susceptible to lung cancer, had an itch of some sort that was relieved by smoking tobacco - so the facts that these people smoked and got lung cancer were not causally related. Unfortunately this has allowed people to slur others in debates like this by simply assuming they are getting money from "Big oil" (curiously "Big Coal" never seems to get mentioned!)

Sadly a very famous theoretical physicist, Freeman Dyson, died recently (aged 96), and in recent years he was a strong opponent of the theory of Climate Change a.k.a. Climate Change:

https://mailchi.mp/38748805d7b1/fre...founding-member-has-died-aged-96?e=63dcba451c

David
 
#26
I’ve said this here before, and my views have not changed, Climate change is the red herring of weather modification/geoengineering going on now at full speed for over 70 years. Read between the lines, look where they don’t want you to look, climate change is deliberate indeed, not by cow farts and big vehicles, but by man’s deliberate attempt to control the weather. It’s just not debatable anymore and that this is not obvious means you’ve really not researched at all.
Start here: https://weathermodificationhistory.com/
It gets very tiresome because folks go into argument when they don’t even have the facts.
 
#27
Thanks for that, Mishelle,

I’ve said this here before, and my views have not changed, Climate change is the red herring of weather modification/geoengineering going on now at full speed for over 70 years. Read between the lines, look where they don’t want you to look, climate change is deliberate indeed, not by cow farts and big vehicles, but by man’s deliberate attempt to control the weather. It’s just not debatable anymore and that this is not obvious means you’ve really not researched at all.
Start here: https://weathermodificationhistory.com/
This is potentially interesting - if only because it might provide an explanation for the insane Climate Change movement. The trouble is, I don't know anything about this, and would find it really hard to assess if this is real. Have you tried suggesting the topic to Alex?

My impression is that climate is so complex that it may be extremely hard to predict what if anything these techniques will achieve.

David
 
#28
Thanks for that, Mishelle,
This is potentially interesting - if only because it might provide an explanation for the insane Climate Change movement. The trouble is, I don't know anything about this, and would find it really hard to assess if this is real. Have you tried suggesting the topic to Alex?

My impression is that climate is so complex that it may be extremely hard to predict what if anything these techniques will achieve.

David
I did mention it to Alex when I first found Skeptiko, but only in passing. I guess I can’t really find the right angle to make it of interest here, since I’m not seeing the ‘extended consciousness’ conversation aspect of it. How would you see it fitting in Skeptiko, I’d be very interested to hear, because this is my biggest research area and I think it would be awesome to be able to discuss it with folks.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “what if anything these techniques will achieve”, please be more specific. I think climate is not that complex actually, compared to something like, flying rockets to space. Weather modification is huge business, what they are capable of is happening, right now, and it’s documented and the corporations advertise to governments all over the world. There are dozens of corporations doing it globally, and if it doesn’t work, then why are they getting paid?
 
#29
I did mention it to Alex when I first found Skeptiko, but only in passing. I guess I can’t really find the right angle to make it of interest here, since I’m not seeing the ‘extended consciousness’ conversation aspect of it. How would you see it fitting in Skeptiko, I’d be very interested to hear, because this is my biggest research area and I think it would be awesome to be able to discuss it with folks.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “what if anything these techniques will achieve”, please be more specific. I think climate is not that complex actually, compared to something like, flying rockets to space. Weather modification is huge business, what they are capable of is happening, right now, and it’s documented and the corporations advertise to governments all over the world. There are dozens of corporations doing it globally, and if it doesn’t work, then why are they getting paid?
Well of course, we have a lively discussion about 'Climate Change' here. I think the link is, that science has closed in to protect this rubbish in a form of group think - much as it has opposed anything it considers 'woo'. Part of the Skeptiko message is that science isn't always honest.

Climate is complex in the sense that it is a function of so many variables - the concentrations of the various gasses in the atmosphere, temperature, pressure, ground terrain, solar radiation etc etc. That makes for a formidable set of coupled partial differential equations which can only be solved by approximate methods over a grid of three spatial dimensions plus a time axis! Furthermore it was the equations of weather forecasting that led Edward Lorenz to discover chaos.

Is any of this weather modification performed openly?

David
 
#30
Well of course, we have a lively discussion about 'Climate Change' here. I think the link is, that science has closed in to protect this rubbish in a form of group think - much as it has opposed anything it considers 'woo'. Part of the Skeptiko message is that science isn't always honest.

Climate is complex in the sense that it is a function of so many variables - the concentrations of the various gasses in the atmosphere, temperature, pressure, ground terrain, solar radiation etc etc. That makes for a formidable set of coupled partial differential equations which can only be solved by approximate methods over a grid of three spatial dimensions plus a time axis! Furthermore it was the equations of weather forecasting that led Edward Lorenz to discover chaos.

Is any of this weather modification performed openly?

David
Ah yes, the fraudulent science angle, good point, there’s certainly that! And I do also get that climate is complex, but doesn’t it seem less complex technically than men in rockets in outer space planning to colonize Mars or the Moon? I mean, if we can’t figure out our own atmosphere, how are we figuring out the atmospheres of planets millions of miles away?

Yes, there’s much of it that’s open, I’ll put together some info and post it here, and check out this thread more closely, thanks for the nudge. :)
 
#31
I’ll start with some basics, then the corporations.

Senate Hearing US Military Weather as Weapon:

https://153news.net/watch_video.php?v=U4XK5S4YMON3

Document: Weather as Force Multiplier:
https://geoengineeringwatch.org/documents/vol3ch15.pdf

There’s a pretty extensive list of pertinent links here:
https://www.aircrap.org/documention-of-geoengineering/

Jim Lee’s sites are being combined shortly and has the most info on the web that I’ve found. Here’s a recent YT where some important info is discussed:


There’s several excellent YT channels I’d be happy to pass along for anyone interested that show through satellite images how the weather modification methods work.
 
#33
Here’s the work of one of the most effective anti-geoengineering advocates of the past decade who passed away a couple of years ago.

Rosalind Peterson
Agriculture Defense Coalition | Protecting your right to know!

Link to Geoengineering Destroying the Atmosphere

“In March 2017, Rosalind co-authored one of the first bills introduced into a USA state (RIH6011) that would provide public oversight and strong regulatory prohibition to include fines and penalties for GeoEngineering, weather modification, cloud seeding, and other forms of violence against the Earth. Her goal was to draft a document that could be suitably adapted for other states and nations to protect agriculture, economies and all life from GeoEngineering.”

Their excellent graphic gives the many buzz words you’ll need for further research—
 

Attachments

#35
We've exaggerrated how much we can influence things globally, and become blind to the fact that things aren't nearly as bad as they are perceived. The great barrier reef is actually doing well, so are the polar bears, the glaciers aren't all melting, and the seas are rising at the same rate as they've been doing for quite some time; but if one focusses on the negatives, things seem much worse than they actually are. The real sin may actually be one of hubris, in believing we can have much more of an influence than we do.
I have been in 3 major weather disasters in 15 years, 2 so-called 100 year hurricanes and a manufactured ’tornado’ — to me, and to the millions around the world dealing with these events it really is that bad and the hubris is evident in those who, just because they haven’t personally experienced a disaster, they dismiss our suffering.
 
#36
One more angle on the psy-op aspect of this equation is solar cycles, and I’m not too familiar with this, if anyone here has links/resources to share on that, it would be very helpful.
:)
 
#37
Alex, what do you think, Jim Lee would be an excellent guest to illustrate a ‘middle path’ so to speak—the argument is much bigger than climate believers and deniers with real world consequences happening now and a big missing piece of the wider conversation, don‘t you think??

 
#38
Steering atmospheric rivers:
Sorry Mishelle,

I have quite a bit on now, and I really can't do justice right now to the collection of material you are offering up.

Alex might be interested though.

One thing I will say, is that the science establishment seems willing to study anything if they can make money out of it. For example, when the whole climate thing started, someone suggested the idea of capturing the CO2 from burning fossil fuels and preventing it reaching the atmosphere by analogy with the process of storing the waste materials from nuclear reactors. This is now known as 'carbon capture' and has lead to a host of research projects that frankly don't make sense. Nobody ever costs these up in terms of the extra energy and other raw materials consumed to absorb CO2. The problem is that making a given amount of energy by burning fossil fuel releases a vastly greater weight of CO2 as compared with the weight of nuclear waste created to produce the same amount of energy. The concept is just daft, yet it hasn't stopped laboratories studying it (at our expense of course).

Thus by analogy, the fact that there is a lot of research into this may not translate into any 'useful' capabilities.

David
 
Last edited:
#39
Thus by analogy, the fact that there is a lot of research into this may not translate into any 'useful' capabilities.
It’s not just research, it’s happening now all over the world.
1PacificRedwood explains regularly how it’s happening in California and the US West.

Mike Morales gives more accurate forecasts than the weather channel.

NeverLoseTruth has several playlists about it.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEzMjVreh0pSXDHmgfBhtxjJuL-whIiOR

And there’s so much more! But, I understand, you’re busy, folks are busy, and until a disaster hits them personally, they probably won’t look into it.
 
#40
Mike Morales gives more accurate forecasts than the weather channel.
Well Jeremy Corbyn's brother is a meteorologist and 'climate denier' who actually makes money out of selling his long range weather forecasts! I think he claims that weather forecasting has just got stuck in the CO2 story and that better forecasts are possible without that assumption.

http://www.weatheraction.com/

And there’s so much more! But, I understand, you’re busy, folks are busy, and until a disaster hits them personally, they probably won’t look into it
The trouble is, there are just so many scandals around nowadays - LOL!

David
 
Top