Chis Shelton, Social Science Blind Spot Regarding Cults? |444|

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#21
So now we have to consider how do these normal states (which many people have experienced but won't admit it) come in to play with "paranormal experiences"? These states can debunk imo 90 percent of paranormal experiences. The mind is a mystery, and the comments on the video are interesting
 
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#22
Hi Alex
Try "Trance from magic to Technology"by Dennis Wier, its his hypothesis on how trance is formed, if the hypothesis is right or not isnt too
important to me just little gems here and there.another one is by a stage musician who wrote on his travels to India in the colonial days
some of the magic shows he observed required and used whole crowd trance and collective hallucination to work, the thing is if its possible to do a crowd how can we trust anything that is happening around as at all, "Hypnotism and Mysticism of India" Ormond McGill.
Will be checking those books out. I was appalled at how gullible people are in the new age/occult circles. I'm glad I never had my eggs in one basket, my skepticism/rationale/Atheism always pulled me back I'm a very pragmatic person
 
#23
For me having random ESP has nothing to do with God or if a figure like that exists. It's possible you can have these experiences without a creator. He most be bored up there don't ya think?
One of the hardest things to do, having determined that the Biblical version of God is unsatisfactory, is to then start from a blank page in coming up with a fresh and more usable concept of God. For example here in just a few words we have 'creator', 'he' and 'up there' which are all remnants of that Biblical version. To start afresh, we need to discard all of those. Personally, I reject those terms, for me 'creator' is too small and limiting a label, 'he' is limiting because it is only a part of the picture, 'up there' is inappropriate becasuse it implies a separation or distance keeping us apart. Start with a clean page and it is possible to find a richer, fuller more complete and satisfactory concept of God, without falling back on worn out old ideas. The problem then is one of misunderstanding. If I say 'God' the reader may assume I mean something very traditional. I dislike the term 'source' which many resort to nowadays, it is even more lacking and limiting than the term 'creator'. We lack the words.
 
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#24
One of the hardest things to do, having determined that the Biblical version of God is unsatisfactory, is to then start from a blank page in coming up with a fresh and more usable concept of God. For example here in just a few words we have 'creator', 'he' and 'up there' which are all remnants of that Biblical version. To start afresh, we need to discard all of those. Personally, I reject those terms, for me 'creator' is too small and limiting a label, 'he' is limiting because it is only a part of the picture, 'up there' is inappropriate becasuse it implies a separation or distance keeping us apart. Start with a clean page and it is possible to find a richer, fuller more complete and satisfactory concept of God, without falling back on worn out old ideas. The problem then is one of misunderstanding. If I say 'God' the reader may assume I mean something very traditional. I dislike the term 'source' which many resort to nowadays, it is even more lacking and limiting than the term 'creator'. We lack the words.
I'll stick with nature, as nature has is more encompassing to me. Nature for me includes the vast universe as well not just the stuff on earth
 
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#25
One of the hardest things to do, having determined that the Biblical version of God is unsatisfactory, is to then start from a blank page in coming up with a fresh and more usable concept of God. For example here in just a few words we have 'creator', 'he' and 'up there' which are all remnants of that Biblical version. To start afresh, we need to discard all of those. Personally, I reject those terms, for me 'creator' is too small and limiting a label, 'he' is limiting because it is only a part of the picture, 'up there' is inappropriate becasuse it implies a separation or distance keeping us apart. Start with a clean page and it is possible to find a richer, fuller more complete and satisfactory concept of God, without falling back on worn out old ideas. The problem then is one of misunderstanding. If I say 'God' the reader may assume I mean something very traditional. I dislike the term 'source' which many resort to nowadays, it is even more lacking and limiting than the term 'creator'. We lack the words.
That's why I'm actually been doing thanks for the reply. I'm starting on a fresh blank page and it's been rewarding my sense of wonder and childlike mystery is back its almost as if a oxymoron. I'm ready to begin this new chapter in my life. Open minded, skeptical, rationale, wonder, mystery, evidence, knowledge and understanding
 
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#26
Hi Alex
Try "Trance from magic to Technology"by Dennis Wier, its his hypothesis on how trance is formed, if the hypothesis is right or not isnt too
important to me just little gems here and there.another one is by a stage musician who wrote on his travels to India in the colonial days
some of the magic shows he observed required and used whole crowd trance and collective hallucination to work, the thing is if its possible to do a crowd how can we trust anything that is happening around as at all, "Hypnotism and Mysticism of India" Ormond McGill.
Do you have an excerpt or can you paraphrase how they made a collective crowd hallucinate?
 
#27
I have done WILD before. I heard auditory hallucinations but they were clearly inside my head. In extension of that I had a sleep paralysis without hallucinations but the paralysis was frightening enough by itself. I discovered it by accident by meditating on the flashing lights when I closed my eyes.

A moving chair is not a hallucination. An invisible human shaped being passing through you is very convincing and I have hard time believing my nervous system arranged to form that hallucination.
 
#28
Do you have an excerpt or can you paraphrase how they made a collective crowd hallucinate?
Hi
How they do it im not too sure exactly... sort of like hypnosis on steroids but the indian rope trick is an example.The book is available for free in pdf format if you want to try make proper sense of it.Im not spreading too many of my heretical ideas about anymore as they have pretty much messed up my life.
 
#29
Poltergeist. I can't wish it upon anyone since I had to go through more than a decade of traumas and repressed memories to experience it. Poltergeists are "attracted" to people with psychological problems. It is far more than moving furniture. I experienced seeing full-body apparitions, steps across my floor at night, invisible "beings" passing through me. It was only when I accidentally saw a chair move that I thought "poltergeist" and look up the descriptions in spiritual literature. Before that I only knew about it from popular culture.
Were you able to verify that these experiences were happening in consensus reality? For example, did other people experience these things while they were with you?

Anyway, despite the trauma you seem to have come out of it as a pretty open minded sort of guy.

David
 
#30
I totally get your point. I also appreciate the idea that if I can see it in others it is probably in me... I can definitely see myself repeating old patterns... even ones I thought I was past :)
The older I get the more I realize we are trapped behind our lenses or religion,race ,country etc and until we
can make a bold leap to try on somebody elses lenses we cant really understand things differently, but even then its just another lens out of so many billion.I think understanding that we are in a bubble helps though.
 
#31
Interesting my friend is a hypnotists and versed in NLP. I witness the power of hypnosis and how it works numerous times. One time they had convinced a dude his apple he brought wasn't in front of him after putting him in trance. The apple was literally in front of him!! They asked him to find it he kept looking all over and ended up giving up. This wasn't a setup either I know the guy! My friend would tell me which people were using hypnosis or NLP when going on these spiritual "retreats" there's some unexplainable stuff I'll admit, but the more research I do the more pragmatic explanations I find. I did see some small telekinesis but now I'm wondering if it was planted? I found research on wake induced lucid dreaming where people can make themselves hallucinate with practice, there are other sleep related stages such as hypnagogia and hypnopompic. Hypnopompic is when you wake up and see and hear things for a few seconds or minutes, it's related to your sleep state. Apparently your brain wakes up in a spectrum and not all parts go to sleep at the same time. Hypnagogia is when your to wakefulness to sleep and you can see stuff and hear stuff. Tesla and Edison and many other scientists were purported to use these states to advance their research. I wonder how many people these states frightened and got put on pills by the psuedo science of psychiatry

My point is are there people who can spontaneously trigger wake induced lucid dreaming since not much research is done on it?
And can that be mistaken for "paranormal"
The New Hypnosis or NLP is a very watered down version or the types used in the east or the spiritual offshoots but when you listen to scientists like donald hoffman and togeather with the original hypnosis it becomes very trippy.
 
#33
I put a lot of emphasis on all that subconscious programming we all get from O to 7 years old. Since it's a mix of good & bad, then some people experience some really strong reservations about getting rid of the bad programming. There was a Christian saint, whose name escapes me now, who suffered terribly from depression-based hallucinations, but also periods of ecstasy. When he was told that the "demons" could be banished, he was concerned that it would cost him his "angels" as well. So, I like to settle on personal experience as proof that can't be tossed aside. This is why I strongly recommend Dr. Eben Alexander/Karen Newell's FREE "33 Day Journey to the Heart of Consciousness" online program. Dr. Alexander is big on "The Kingdom of God is within." If someone can stick w/ meditation for 33 days, maybe they will have enough experiences to lead them to stick w/ it longer. I went through a brief flirtation w/ atheism, but I kept remembering my various experiences that countered that extreme mindset.
 
#34
Were you able to verify that these experiences were happening in consensus reality? For example, did other people experience these things while they were with you?

Anyway, despite the trauma you seem to have come out of it as a pretty open minded sort of guy.

David
One thing. During a few years prior to the "wild" experiences there were periodic knockings from my wall. In hindsight I think these were related. I was absolutely sure it was physical and I even had the building architect around to see if he could figure out if there was a problem with the building.

Other people heard these knockings and we never found an explanation. Sometimes it would knock 24/7 and it was almost impossible to sleep.

Other from that: even if we put a camera inside my apartment I am not sure anything other than the chair could have been picked up. There was an "invisible being". I was being touched and passed through by. I regularily walked in a nearby forest and sometimes I had experiences there as well. In other words the phenomena was following me. It was not restricted to my house (like a typical "ghost" would).

I have been pretty far out mentally due to my traumas so I really had to notice these phenomena if they could be hallucinations or something paranormal before I decided whether to contact a psychiatrist or a psychic person. I decided the latter and she learnt me to work with my inner traumas and repressed memories and gradually the phenomena disappeared. I think my sightings and auditory experiences might be able to be explained as a sort of hallucination but the invisible being I stumbled into. I can't see why my body should have that function built-in to create that illusion (since I am not the only person with these experiences).

Here is a psychic with her explanation of it, which fits very well with my experience and what the psychic person I visited told me to do:
https://www.crystalannecompton.com/poltergeists-what-they-are-and-how-to-clear-them/
 
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#35
Hi
How they do it im not too sure exactly... sort of like hypnosis on steroids but the indian rope trick is an example.The book is available for free in pdf format if you want to try make proper sense of it.Im not spreading too many of my heretical ideas about anymore as they have pretty much messed up my life.
Damn
 
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#36
One thing. During a few years prior to the "wild" experiences there were periodic knockings from my wall. In hindsight I think these were related. I was absolutely sure it was physical and I even had the building architect around to see if he could figure out if there was a problem with the building.

Other people heard these knockings and we never found an explanation. Sometimes it would knock 24/7 and it was almost impossible to sleep.

Other from that: even if we put a camera inside my apartment I am not sure anything other than the chair could have been picked up. There was an "invisible being". I was being touched and passed through by. I regularily walked in a nearby forest and sometimes I had experiences there as well. In other words the phenomena was following me. It was not restricted to my house (like a typical "ghost" would).

I have been pretty far out mentally due to my traumas so I really had to notice these phenomena if they could be hallucinations or something paranormal before I decided whether to contact a psychiatrist or a psychic person. I decided the latter and she learnt me to work with my inner traumas and repressed memories and gradually the phenomena disappeared. I think my sightings and auditory experiences might be able to be explained as a sort of hallucination but the invisible being I stumbled into. I can't see why my body should have that function built-in to create that illusion (since I am not the only person with these experiences).

Here is a psychic with her explanation of it, which fits very well with my experience and what the psychic person I visited told me to do:
https://www.crystalannecompton.com/poltergeists-what-they-are-and-how-to-clear-them/
You'd have to find the right psychiatrist for you, many are checkbox psychiatrist. My friend seen one and all they do is ask questions check boxes on their clipboard, diagnosis you and try and give you pills. There is literally no bond or any kind of help in that field. Check out madinamerica.com for psychiatrist that actually earn there money and help people and not diagnose them with made up diseases
Check out Thomas szasz as well
 
#37
Even in madinamerica they are locked into mainstream views (ok, less mainstream but...). I doubt there are many therapists there that accept paranormal events.

I have read the site for several years.
 
#38
Hi Alex
Try "Trance from magic to Technology"by Dennis Wier, its his hypothesis on how trance is formed, if the hypothesis is right or not isnt too
important to me just little gems here and there.another one is by a stage musician who wrote on his travels to India in the colonial days
some of the magic shows he observed required and used whole crowd trance and collective hallucination to work, the thing is if its possible to do a crowd how can we trust anything that is happening around as at all, "Hypnotism and Mysticism of India" Ormond McGill.
For what it's worth -

You don't have to trust it (or anything). What works for me is that I take responsibility for my interpretations and conclusions. I live by the assumption that, "What I observe 'out there' is an opportunity to recognize and then change (if I wish) what is "in here.'"

My experience suggests that by so doing, that which I perceive 'out there' seems less and less 'scary.'
 
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#39
So now we have to consider how do these normal states (which many people have experienced but won't admit it) come in to play with "paranormal experiences"? These states can debunk imo 90 percent of paranormal experiences. The mind is a mystery, and the comments on the video are interesting
Experiences of "the other worldly" while experiencing altered states, in my view (as I have experienced them) do not debunk "the realness" of that which is experienced.

I say this though because I have an alternative theory on it all... a theory whereby "what" is actually observed... how it is initially perceived, interpreted and then re-interpreted such that conclusions are sometimes drawn... conclusions which can be the basis for a new paradigm or used to bolster an existing paradigm... and considering how all these factors impact the degree of open mindedness as to "what" "that which they observe" has the capacity to appear to be to that individual (or group)... all of this plays a role (perhaps a significant, perhaps even a total role) in the form of manifestation perceived by the individual (or group).

And the key point of my theory is that the ACTUAL "form" (as the origination of what is perceived may be void of physicality/materiality... in other words, all and only an agency of consciousness) may never actually be apprehended in its true form.

That what we perceive it is, is not actually its 'isness' (its true form). This is the crux of the whole 'theory' if you will... and why it can be perceived differently by different observers.

This is exactly where the research is headed (as to conclusions). And that to decide that "because what that person says they saw was not what this other person says they saw and, in fact... was not even seen at all by these three or so other people" automatically means two of them hallucinated what they claim they saw and therefore none of it was real.

This is clearly out of the box thinking... but if there be any reader who carefully reads this post (maybe does so three or four times in they need to in order to understand the premise), this is game changing.
 
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#40
I'll stick with nature, as nature has is more encompassing to me. Nature for me includes the vast universe as well not just the stuff on earth
And understanding this (God or Nature) is key to understanding Flower's definition of Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path and thus, understanding the adherents to one or the other. Flowers points out God and Nature serve the same purpose with regards to which path (if any of the two) one may have affinity to or consciously adhere to.
 
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