Chis Shelton, Social Science Blind Spot Regarding Cults? |444|

#61
totally agree. I don't think this is as impossible as it seems. we established and enforce standards of moral responsibility in criminal culpability all the time, why can't we do it in this area. maybe the answer is more conspiratorial :)
Consider:
How many times solutions were worse than the problem. Both those churches are sizable - property and influence. It would take a sizable willingness to risk enacting action needed "to put them down".
...well consider you succeeded at it though.... then what?
Your success would move the bar higher... so who or what would be next?
When does the "putting down" end if younger others take after your successful action to "clean up" sociological intolerances?

Possibly a better attitude would be to grow a better civilization and let the ones you mention die off on their own.

Which "solution" would take longer to actually accomplish? Which one is easier? Which one feels right in the aftermath period? Which one do you want to participate in, in the aftermath period?

In the better civilization these churches would be improved towards your ideals or they would die off.

But they won't die easy in this civilization as it is now.
This civilization supports them. This civilization has a NEED for wrongness to exist... so after you have raised the bar, there will be other churches, other organizations that come into the cross-hairs of ones who seek out wrongness.
There is the internal need for SOMEONE SOMEWHERE to be wrong.

It just seems like a lot of effort to keep putting down the next set of un-desirable churches which this type of civilization will erect.

Which concept is more enjoyable for you:
To know you are right AND everyone else is right too?
Or to know you are more right because someone else somewhere is more wrong than you?

Thanks for reading this.
 
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#62
Im not sure a critical/logical thinker could ever be an atheist,an agnostic yes, but never an atheist, thats like a full stop on a sentence and its all over then.
By the standard definition yea. By my definition no, why? Well finding out God would be the ultimate answer and would be a meticulous problem to solve, it would be the grand answer. But that begs the question which God? There are thousands of stories of different gods. And even if someone found out hypothetically what does it actually solve? Aren't we all going to meet God anyway? Or what if God is within? The evidence is weak practically nil, when people speak of God it's through their own perception and ego
 
#63
By the standard definition yea. By my definition no, why? Well finding out God would be the ultimate answer and would be a meticulous problem to solve, it would be the grand answer. But that begs the question which God? There are thousands of stories of different gods. And even if someone found out hypothetically what does it actually solve? Aren't we all going to meet God anyway? Or what if God is within? The evidence is weak practically nil, when people speak of God it's through their own perception and ego
The evidence is decidedly not as you put it, "weak practically nil". Perhaps you allowed your own perception and ego to cloud your judgement.
 
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#64
The evidence is decidedly not as you put it, "weak practically nil". Perhaps you allowed your own perception and ego to cloud your judgement.
Well it is because the very foundation of it is from a old book of collected stories. Which have been edited and revised hundreds of times
 
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#65
Atheism is as old as polytheism and monotheism.
The trouble with people in western culture is their appropriation to certain mainstream eastern philosophies while not knowing or ignoring other tenets. Such as atheist philosophies of antiquity which I provided sources from from India to Africa
 
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#66
All western culture did was appropriate mainstream theistic eastern philosophies while dousing on lsd while the Indian "gurus" made money and fame off of it. Largely ignoring the fact that India has a rich and vibrant culture of secularism as does Africa. I even posted a video of a scholar breaking down kemetic origin. But this forum has never dealt with kemetic anything. There's definitely some latent racism on this board, see how that works? It's either America or europeon spirituality or the mainstream Hinduism. I'm noticing the trend
 
#67
Consider:
How many times solutions were worse than the problem. Both those churches are sizable - property and influence. It would take a sizable willingness to risk enacting action needed "to put them down".
...well consider you succeeded at it though.... then what?
Your success would move the bar higher... so who or what would be next?
When does the "putting down" end if younger others take after your successful action to "clean up" sociological intolerances?
I am inclined to agree - use the existing laws if possible, but don't invent more rules - the World is overflowing with rules!
Possibly a better attitude would be to grow a better civilization and let the ones you mention die off on their own.

Which "solution" would take longer to actually accomplish? Which one is easier? Which one feels right in the aftermath period? Which one do you want to participate in, in the aftermath period?

In the better civilization these churches would be improved towards your ideals or they would die off.

But they won't die easy in this civilization as it is now.
This civilization supports them. This civilization has a NEED for wrongness to exist... so after you have raised the bar, there will be other churches, other organizations that come into the cross-hairs of ones who seek out wrongness.
There is the internal need for SOMEONE SOMEWHERE to be wrong.

It just seems like a lot of effort to keep putting down the next set of un-desirable churches which this type of civilization will erect.

Which concept is more enjoyable for you:
To know you are right AND everyone else is right too?
Or to know you are more right because someone else somewhere is more wrong than you?

Thanks for reading this.
I tend to agree - thanks for writing in a language I can understand!

David
 
#68
totally agree. I don't think this is as impossible as it seems. we established and enforce standards of moral responsibility in criminal culpability all the time, why can't we do it in this area. maybe the answer is more conspiratorial :)
***
Man, I just don't know how you'd take down the Catholic church... I've thought about it. I MEAN legally of course. I think you try to educate the people? Don't think that would work, they say they got "GOD" on their side. Gesh. From being raised fundamentalist from a young age...ehhh, the brainwashing starts early. They teach them (us) that questioning any of the Bible or church is THE DEVIL! Scare the hell out of kids first. Then they grow up. It really is almost impossible to get a religious person who has done something for years & years to all of a sudden wake-up.

What I ask, "So, what do you think heaven is like?" They will respond OH! It's wonderful! I ask them do the people there ever lie or talk smack behind people's backs? NO! We are perfect beings there! I see. That is when I hit them with, I guess they are not human anymore. Kind of like the Stepford wives, all nice, gentle, kind people. Not really like a REAL person.

In one of my offices once a secretary told me God made AIDS. I asked her why? She said it was Gods punishment to the gay people. I thought a second, okay I said then how come innocent kids get it then? She said well... some people have to suffer because of the BAD people.

I said, "hu, I guess your God isn't very good at just targetting the BAD people!" She wasn't happy with me.
 
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Baccarat

#69
***
Man, I just don't know how you'd take down the Catholic church... I've thought about it. I MEAN legally of course. I think you try to educate the people? Don't think that would work, they say they got "GOD" on their side. Gesh. From being raised fundamentalist from a young age...ehhh, the brainwashing starts early. They teach them (us) that questioning any of the Bible or church is THE DEVIL! Scare the hell out of kids first. Then they grow up. It really is almost impossible to get a religious person who has done something for years & years to all of a sudden wake-up.

What I ask, "So, what do you think heaven is like?" They will respond OH! It's wonderful! I ask them do the people there ever lie or talk smack behind people's backs? NO! We are perfect beings there! I see. That is when I hit them with, I guess they are not human anymore. Kind of like the Stepford wives, all nice, gentle, kind people. Not really like a REAL person.

In one of my offices once a secretary told me God made AIDS. I asked her why? She said it was Gods punishment to the gay people. I thought a second, okay I said then how come innocent kids get it then? She said well... some people have to suffer because of the BAD people.

I said, "hu, I guess your God isn't very good at just targetting the BAD people!" She wasn't happy with me.
Religious people always have a way out lol
 
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Baccarat

#70
The new community is the same. A week before the Coronavirus shutdown I met up with 3 new agers for a group meditation. Before we started we were waiting for more people to come as it was open to the public. No harm right? As we are sitting and waiting the coronavirus topic came up. One of the new agers shrugged and was like "let it run its course" I was like hmmm that sounds borderline apathetic (to myself) but regardless the disease will makes its rounds unfortunately. Then I asked the same person well can you think the virus away? Their eyes lit up of course you can positive thinking can defend against the Coronavirus. Me playing the "devils advocate" then asked well what if their soul contract has them dying from the virus? The reply was "well you can change your soul contract at any time" I pondered in my thoughts to ask how but told myself nah forget it. They'll have some subjective non logical, non foundational answer that they themselves made up or heard from some "pleadian starseed" point is they always have these circular answers. I feel like some of the guests are like that on this show. We need some scholars on here. This forum seems very avoidant of that? Seems like lately it's just publicity interviews to sell books
 
#71
The new community is the same. A week before the Coronavirus shutdown I met up with 3 new agers for a group meditation. Before we started we were waiting for more people to come as it was open to the public. No harm right? As we are sitting and waiting the coronavirus topic came up. One of the new agers shrugged and was like "let it run its course" I was like hmmm that sounds borderline apathetic (to myself) but regardless the disease will makes its rounds unfortunately. Then I asked the same person well can you think the virus away? Their eyes lit up of course you can positive thinking can defend against the Coronavirus. Me playing the "devils advocate" then asked well what if their soul contract has them dying from the virus? The reply was "well you can change your soul contract at any time" I pondered in my thoughts to ask how but told myself nah forget it. They'll have some subjective non logical, non foundational answer that they themselves made up or heard from some "pleadian starseed" point is they always have these circular answers. I feel like some of the guests are like that on this show. We need some scholars on here. This forum seems very avoidant of that? Seems like lately it's just publicity interviews to sell books
***
I think you probably could change your "soul contract" or reason you're here.... but, I don't think it would, in the end, be advisable. I mean if you think about it. IF we are here for a reason or karma.. you would have chosen this path before coming here to "learn the lesson" or "pay for your filthy deeds of the past".
To change that course would mean you gotta come back & do it ALL OVER AGAIN! *ugh.

I have no idea. My mother told me, "when you learn the lesson, the pain will stop." Like, some woman will marry a drunk, get rid of him, marry a guy who cheats, divorce, then marry a man that gambles the rent money & on & on she goes. Always saying, "where are all the good men!?" She hasn't learned the "lesson" yet.

Of course, there is the idea that... bad things happen for a good reason. Meaning... there is a lesson to be learned. I don't know about THAT. Like a child being raped (not any lesson I want to learn). That sounds like "karma". But wow, I don't know. I guess if you're really horrible like Ted Bundy was, he said "I'm sorry" at the end cause somebody told him IF he told God he was sorry & accepted Christ he would go to heaven. Not so fast cowboy. FIRST off he wouldn't even KNOW what to say he was sorry for. He couldn't comprehend the total damage, to the person, their family, friends, neighbors, siblings even the entire population he terrified reading about his horrors.

It's like the idiot who blows up a plane for the 18 virgins. I'm sorry but once on the other side, he's not going to get 18 virgins, he's going to be meeting 250 passengers that are going to be pretty angry. I mean if we go on after death. You'd have the same personality (maybe less the misfiring of the neurons).
 
#72
All western culture did was appropriate mainstream theistic eastern philosophies while dousing on lsd while the Indian "gurus" made money and fame off of it. Largely ignoring the fact that India has a rich and vibrant culture of secularism as does Africa. I even posted a video of a scholar breaking down kemetic origin. But this forum has never dealt with kemetic anything. There's definitely some latent racism on this board, see how that works? It's either America or europeon spirituality or the mainstream Hinduism. I'm noticing the trend

****
Maybe. But wait, "racism"? I see, you must be black so everything to you is "racist". NO... consider the people on this forum. It probably would be mostly white males, from America or Europe. What do you want a tiger to think like a lamb? That isn't how it works in the world. Majority rules (same as the golden rule).

Let's look what "Kemetic" is: "Kemetic spirituality, also known as Kemetism, may also be called Neterism or Egyptian Neo-paganism. ... Together, these combine to form a branch of modern spirituality. Its adherents also refer to it as Kemetic Orthodoxy. They strive to return to the old Egyptian ways as closely as possible."

um, I see you have returned to the "old Egyptian ways". Fine. Neo-paganism? No, we're not doing that. Any more than we are going to start up with the voodoo. Stop w/the "racist". It's cultural. It's not personal. Why are you ALWAYS taking everything "race/personal"? Stop it. It doesn't serve you at all. BTW, not saying there isn't racism, yes there is. I'm a golden-haired female. Cry me a river. How many times do you think I heard "I'd rather be dead than red". (meaning my hair color). Or a bunch of ass men giving me a hard time (AND NOT in a good way either!) LOL.

Dude, it isn't what others say or do to you... it is what YOUR character is. You never let someone control your character.
 
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#73
****
Maybe. But wait, "racism"? I see, you must be black so everything to you is "racist". NO... consider the people on this forum. It probably would be mostly white males, from America or Europe. What do you want a tiger to think like a lamb? That isn't how it works in the world. Majority rules (same as the golden rule).

Let's look what "Kemetic" is: "Kemetic spirituality, also known as Kemetism, may also be called Neterism or Egyptian Neo-paganism. ... Together, these combine to form a branch of modern spirituality. Its adherents also refer to it as Kemetic Orthodoxy. They strive to return to the old Egyptian ways as closely as possible."

um, I see you have returned to the "old Egyptian ways". Fine. Neo-paganism? No, we're not doing that. Any more than we are going to start up with the voodoo. Stop w/the "racist". It's cultural. It's not personal. Why are you ALWAYS taking everything "race/personal"? Stop it. It doesn't serve you at all. BTW, not saying there isn't racism, yes there is. I'm a golden-haired female. Cry me a river. How many times do you think I heard "I'd rather be dead than red". (meaning my hair color). Or a bunch of ass men giving me a hard time (AND NOT in a good way either!) LOL.

Dude, it isn't what others say or do to you... it is what YOUR character is. You never let someone control your character.
What spiritual ways have I returned to? Weren't you just throwing a fit about me being atheist? So what old ways would I be returning to? Let me guess there is a bunch of old Indian men on here as well?
Here's a good video on atheistic kemetism, not a Google definition smh
 
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#74
Regardless of the majority of race on this board doesn't excuse half ass research on cultures of antiquity. I sourced another article on ancient atheism from Africa to India. Researchers found most cultures in these countries were atheist until some came in contact with monotheistic or polytheistic cultures. God forbid we study cultures who tracked the stars just as good as modern day researchers. What's next a interview with sadghuru
 
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#75
Your definition of voodoo is off, maybe it's all the Hollywood movies and scam artists. Voodoo is literally ancestor veneration. That's it, arguably how the Bible is Astrotheology but ended up being something completely different
 
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#76
https://amenrasquad.wordpress.com/tag/ionia/
We (Africans) invented the idea and the concept of god. But, we were simply talking about the elements. We were simply showing reverence to our ancestors. We were simply giving praise and reverence to the forces and power in nature that are real. It has nothing to do with praying to spookism or invisible things.
 
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lonevoice

#77
On the topic of criteria for a cult, I realized how difficult that can be in watching Unorthodox on Netflix ( based on a real cult). The motivation of the Hasidic sect leaders is understandable, but the MO of a cult is there nonetheless. Very thought provoking.
 
#78
Alex, Chris came across as incredibly arrogant, which rather spoiled the show. The arrogance came out big time when you tried to bring up non-materialistic phenomena such as NDE's. Unfortunately, I had to skip chunks of the video because Chis grated too much (maybe I am over-sensitive).

David
*****
You're right. "You're over-sensitive". Not like he could reach through the speaker & grab your throat. LOL I caught his arrogance (as you said) it was married to determination. Now, if he wanted to drag you into Scientology well then, we'd help fight the weirdo off you. He's angry. He was used, abused & lied to a good part of his life. I think he holds a grudge. I don't know about you, but I might be kind of miffed. I mean Scientology is pretty costly. Then they work their people like slaves. OF COURSE, they love to work (EGADS! I just looked up how many hours they actually work/I heard it was bad but) " They work seven days a week. AND "They signed a contract for a billion years — in keeping with the church's belief that Scientologists are immortal. They worked seven days a week, often on little sleep, for sporadic paychecks of $50 a week, at most."
DAMN. wth?
Oh man and get this: "Scientology holidays. Holidays, commemorations and observances in the Church of Scientology include the following: February 22: Celebrity Day. "

WTH kind of organization is this? Wait a minute, this is some kind of major scam/brainwashing thing going on. Why do I hear Homer Simpson yelling in my brain? Freakin "Celebrity Day"? okay, yeah there is evil afoot all right.

It's an Amway, pyramid scheme for the brainless. Damn, I thought Stepford wives would be a freakout, but this gives you... your own brain handed back to you scrambled.

AND WHAT IS THIS? "New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright details Cruise’s demigod status within the church, as well as the group’s ultimate purpose — protect humanity from aliens living in our bodies, who are bent on destroying us and ultimately the planet. "

Okay look, I'm out. Evil? yeah we got some evil out there, we got a pandemic we got this Scientology telling us some aliens want into our bodies (like those POD people/ Invasion of the body snatchers). WTH is going on here?


^^Angry Scientologist.
 
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#79
*****
You're right. "You're over-sensitive". Not like he could reach through the speaker & grab your throat. LOL I caught his arrogance (as you said) it was married to determination. Now, if he wanted to drag you into Scientology well then, we'd help fight the weirdo off you. He's angry. He was used, abused & lied to a good part of his life. I think he holds a grudge. I don't know about you, but I might be kind of miffed. I mean Scientology is pretty costly. Then they work their people like slaves. OF COURSE, they love to work (EGADS! I just looked up how many hours they actually work/I heard it was bad but) " They work seven days a week. AND "They signed a contract for a billion years — in keeping with the church's belief that Scientologists are immortal. They worked seven days a week, often on little sleep, for sporadic paychecks of $50 a week, at most."
DAMN. wth?
Oh man and get this: "Scientology holidays. Holidays, commemorations and observances in the Church of Scientology include the following: February 22: Celebrity Day. "

WTH kind of organization is this? Wait a minute, this is some kind of major scam/brainwashing thing going on. Why do I hear Homer Simpson yelling in my brain? Freakin "Celebrity Day"? okay, yeah there is evil afoot all right.

It's an Amway, pyramid scheme for the brainless. Damn, I thought Stepford wives would be a freakout, but this gives you... your own brain handed back to you scrambled.

AND WHAT IS THIS? "New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright details Cruise’s demigod status within the church, as well as the group’s ultimate purpose — protect humanity from aliens living in our bodies, who are bent on destroying us and ultimately the planet. "

Okay look, I'm out. Evil? yeah we got some evil out there, we got a pandemic we got this Scientology telling us some aliens want into our bodies (like those POD people/ Invasion of the body snatchers). WTH is going on here?


^^Angry Scientologist.
This community knows of spirit - extended consciousness.
I love this.

What has me baffled are the ASSUMPTIONS that the rules of that realm are the same as what we (as humans) believe should be the rules.

I mean, just based on what CAN be done (perpetrated?) on this planet, tells me the controlling rules are just a bit different from "ours".

So.... if you believe the spirits are watching (with us - we're all one - we are connected - etc.) then probably it might be a better idea to learn the rules that govern control. Protect or be careful of or concern yourself primarily with self control as a first step in learning what control is all about.

That said though, I think it important to stress here that I STRONGLY disagree with Scientology - the cult.
Their current tactics and inability to balance at least just a little bit more humanity into their processes irks me.

However, about Scientology data... it is data. In my view, data has no life in and of itself.
 
#80
This community knows of spirit - extended consciousness.
I love this.

What has me baffled are the ASSUMPTIONS that the rules of that realm are the same as what we (as humans) believe should be the rules.

I mean, just based on what CAN be done (perpetrated?) on this planet, tells me the controlling rules are just a bit different from "ours".

So.... if you believe the spirits are watching (with us - we're all one - we are connected - etc.) then probably it might be a better idea to learn the rules that govern control. Protect or be careful of or concern yourself primarily with self control as a first step in learning what control is all about.

That said though, I think it important to stress here that I STRONGLY disagree with Scientology - the cult.
Their current tactics and inability to balance at least just a little bit more humanity into their processes irks me.

However, about Scientology data... it is data. In my view, data has no life in and of itself.
***
mmm, yes. I thought something along those lines... "the rules". Terrance McKenna was talking about that. Something about we had to figure out how to be the actual player of the chess game and not just the chess piece.

But, "self-control"? I got that. I thought I did anyway. But you know we could be influenced by all kinds of nuts & psychopaths (and the media). THAT is why I like to work in my gardens in silence. Things sometimes become clearer. Esp. wars. Karma. You can see them coming.
 
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