Chis Shelton, Social Science Blind Spot Regarding Cults? |444|

#81
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mmm, yes. I thought something along those lines... "the rules". Terrance McKenna was talking about that. Something about we had to figure out how to be the actual player of the chess game and not just the chess piece.

But, "self-control"? I got that. I thought I did anyway. But you know we could be influenced by all kinds of nuts & psychopaths (and the media). THAT is why I like to work in my gardens in silence. Things sometimes become clearer. Esp. wars. Karma. You can see them coming.
Cool.
I wrote a long piece on control. One of my first posts on my little thought trove minds.com/mindsguide
Basically the conclusion was that those who can control, control.
 
#83
it's tough because you got to have empathy for someone who's born into something like that and is obviously carrying some guilt about taking as long as he did to get out.
I think what was the trigger was you telling him exactly the interpretation he would make of material he hadn't seen yet. Considering he came from an environment where people are told what to think long before they are told about Xenu, I totally get his issues with that. It would have been kinder to say, "How about I send you some peer reviewed references, and we can discuss them at a later date?".

I liked that you mentioned the whole IANDS issue with cults. It's still kind of a dirty little secret that no ones talks about. Many local chapters of IANDS have had serious issues of being taken over by cults. ACISTE, which is a related organization, has also had some issues with cults infiltrating the NDE peer forum.

I was really involved with NDE groups back then, and when I questioned letting a particular cult have so much influence on such groups, I was quickly banned from the peer forum at ACISTE and made to feel very unwelcome at IANDS. I was told that there were terrible accusations leveled against me, but no one ever told me the specifics of what I had allegedly done. It was a terrible experience. I don't think I could ever let my guard down with a group like IANDS ever again. I really trusted them and thought I had found my tribe. I hadn't.

I think the founders of IANDS had a great vision, but sadly it was co-opted by some bad people.
 
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#84
I think what was the trigger was you telling him exactly the interpretation he would make of material he hadn't seen yet. Considering he came from an environment where people are told what to think long before they are told about Xenu, I totally get his issues with that. It would have been kinder to say, "How about I send you some peer reviewed references, and we can discuss them at a later date?".

I liked that you mentioned the whole IANDS issue with cults. It's still kind of a dirty little secret that no ones talks about. Many local chapters of IANDS have had serious issues of being taken over by cults. ACISTE, which is a related organization, has also had some issues with cults infiltrating the NDE peer forum.

I was really involved with NDE groups back then, and when I questioned letting a particular cult have so much influence on such groups, I was quickly banned from the peer forum at ACISTE and made to feel very unwelcome at IANDS. I was told that there were terrible accusations leveled against me, but no one ever told me the specifics of what I had allegedly done. It was a terrible experience. I don't think I could ever let my guard down with a group like IANDS ever again. I really trusted them and thought I had found my tribe. I hadn't.

I think the founders of IANDS had a great vision, but sadly it was co-opted by some bad people.
I know the feeling of thinking you found your tribe
 
#85
I think what was the trigger was you telling him exactly the interpretation he would make of material he hadn't seen yet. Considering he came from an environment where people are told what to think long before they are told about Xenu, I totally get his issues with that. It would have been kinder to say, "How about I send you some peer reviewed references, and we can discuss them at a later date?".

I liked that you mentioned the whole IANDS issue with cults. It's still kind of a dirty little secret that no ones talks about. Many local chapters of IANDS have had serious issues of being taken over by cults. ACISTE, which is a related organization, has also had some issues with cults infiltrating the NDE peer forum.

I was really involved with NDE groups back then, and when I questioned letting a particular cult have so much influence on such groups, I was quickly banned from the peer forum at ACISTE and made to feel very unwelcome at IANDS. I was told that there were terrible accusations leveled against me, but no one ever told me the specifics of what I had allegedly done. It was a terrible experience. I don't think I could ever let my guard down with a group like IANDS ever again. I really trusted them and thought I had found my tribe. I hadn't.

I think the founders of IANDS had a great vision, but sadly it was co-opted by some bad people.
****
Consider it GOOD FORTUNE you were given the bums rush from some stupid group that doesn't at least listen to a new idea. Your welcome here. Now, understand we might throw virtual paper towel rolls at you, but... we always (eventually) offer a bandaid and SOMETIMES a passage aggressive "OH, I'm SO sorry for what I did, but..."
 
#86
****
Consider it GOOD FORTUNE you were given the bums rush from some stupid group that doesn't at least listen to a new idea. Your welcome here. Now, understand we might throw virtual paper towel rolls at you, but... we always (eventually) offer a bandaid and SOMETIMES a passage aggressive "OH, I'm SO sorry for what I did, but..."
Thanks, Atlantis. :)
Looking back, it was probably a good thing I learned my lesson when I did. It wasn't so much that those groups were not open to new ideas, but when they were presented with evidence that a cult had infiltrated their organizations and was putting venerable people at risk, they quickly tried to quash that information.

EDIT: Here is the thread about IANDS. http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...nection-to-near-death-experience-scienc.3116/
 
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#87
****
Consider it GOOD FORTUNE you were given the bums rush from some stupid group that doesn't at least listen to a new idea. Your welcome here. Now, understand we might throw virtual paper towel rolls at you, but... we always (eventually) offer a bandaid and SOMETIMES a passage aggressive "OH, I'm SO sorry for what I did, but..."
I appreciate your speaking for the group, but I wonder if I am considered an infiltrator. See I do not participate in Scientology the cult, but I do not have any issue with Scientology the data existing.
The data is without life.
Life responds to data, though and these responses are probably what irks so many others outside the circle of that cult.

But life (as bodies) also responds to a mine in a mine field.
Within the entire set called "data" there are mine fields.
Is it really our job to play guards and stop wanderers from one of those mines?
 
#88
I appreciate your speaking for the group, but I wonder if I am considered an infiltrator. See I do not participate in Scientology the cult, but I do not have any issue with Scientology the data existing.
The data is without life.
Life responds to data, though and these responses are probably what irks so many others outside the circle of that cult.

But life (as bodies) also responds to a mine in a mine field.
Within the entire set called "data" there are mine fields.
Is it really our job to play guards and stop wanderers from one of those mines?
***
I don't speak for ANY group. I'm bad enough on my own. You say you don't have any "issue" with Scientology (and I'm guessing any oddball playgroup) but I do. I got issues! Wait, that didn't come outright. But I got ISSUES with bad people. I tend to point out the hole someone is heading towards to warn them.

HELL to the YES it is our "job to play guards to stop wanderers from one of those mines". YES, IT IS! Who raised you? Didn't your mom tell you this? For heavens sake Christopher! We are supposed to try our best to help mankind. Unless you want to turn out like the old Scrooge.

Business!” cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. “Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business."
 
#89
***
I don't speak for ANY group. I'm bad enough on my own. You say you don't have any "issue" with Scientology (and I'm guessing any oddball playgroup) but I do. I got issues! Wait, that didn't come outright. But I got ISSUES with bad people. I tend to point out the hole someone is heading towards to warn them.

HELL to the YES it is our "job to play guards to stop wanderers from one of those mines". YES, IT IS! Who raised you? Didn't your mom tell you this? For heavens sake Christopher! We are supposed to try our best to help mankind. Unless you want to turn out like the old Scrooge.

Business!” cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. “Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business."
I am sure you do not mean to be comical, but...
You dare to play god? A savior are you?
Further, what does that guy you are saving from the data mine saying to you?
He's saying, "DO NOT CENSOR ME or whatever I want to find out about!!!"
But I am saving you, sir.... understand? <--- funny. Is that what you say to THAT guy?

And if you REFUSE to read that I do not agree with Scientology - the cult - then why bother me?
I have NO ISSUES with data.

Attack someone else, please.
(saving one from a data mine while strangling another.... wow!)
 
#90
I am sure you do not mean to be comical, but...
You dare to play god? A savior are you?
Further, what does that guy you are saving from the data mine saying to you?
He's saying, "DO NOT CENSOR ME or whatever I want to find out about!!!"
But I am saving you, sir.... understand? <--- funny. Is that what you say to THAT guy?

And if you REFUSE to read that I do not agree with Scientology - the cult - then why bother me?
I have NO ISSUES with data.

Attack someone else, please.
(saving one from a data mine while strangling another.... wow!)
That might have been a bit much on my part... I should say sorry... yes?
 
#92
By the standard definition yea. By my definition no, why? Well finding out God would be the ultimate answer and would be a meticulous problem to solve, it would be the grand answer. But that begs the question which God? There are thousands of stories of different gods. And even if someone found out hypothetically what does it actually solve? Aren't we all going to meet God anyway? Or what if God is within? The evidence is weak practically nil, when people speak of God it's through their own perception and ego
Yes but there must be doubt , you cannot Know, therefore you are an agnostic not an atheist if there is any doubt, just labels though.
 
#93
I am sure you do not mean to be comical, but...
You dare to play god? A savior are you?
Further, what does that guy you are saving from the data mine saying to you?
He's saying, "DO NOT CENSOR ME or whatever I want to find out about!!!"
But I am saving you, sir.... understand? <--- funny. Is that what you say to THAT guy?

And if you REFUSE to read that I do not agree with Scientology - the cult - then why bother me?
I have NO ISSUES with data.

Attack someone else, please.
(saving one from a data mine while strangling another.... wow!)
***
Listen closely honey, IF I wanted to "attack" you there would be no question that I did... none. WTH is the "YOU DARE TO PLAY GOD!"? Just WTH? No dude, I'm playing being a decent human being you loon. Yeah, I heard you that you don't agree w/Scientology. I have NO idea what you are talking about in terms of "data".

I think you have some wires crossed loonster, when you wrote something about "censoring people or data mine". Are those voices in your head telling you to write this? Tell him (or her) to chillax & have a ham sandwich.

You want the bottom line (AGAIN)? Fine, here it is... it's simple, as a HUMAN BEING, a NICE PERSON, you would point out to someone who is heading for the cliff, "excuse me sir, but you are heading for a CLIFF, you will fall and you will end up dead." Why, you could even post a sign!

THAT SAID, if you are an ass I might NOT point this out & might cover the sign temporarily. But, hey that's just me.
 
#94
Recently I relayed to someone that as a kind of cosmic joke on ourselves, we drive our lives into recurrent circumstances until we finally get what that circumstance all about (or nearly all about).
Guess I'll be defending my right to data search for quite some time.
***
I wasn't going to reply but eh, what the hell, keeps me from doing work around here..... SO! I have no idea what you mean by "data search". We all data search. Then you mix up your karma with this. Is that what you are saying? You figured out that your karma = data search?

Let me save you some data search time; yes, you will continue to have your "bad karma" until you learn the lesson.
 
#95
***
Listen closely honey, IF I wanted to "attack" you there would be no question that I did... none. WTH is the "YOU DARE TO PLAY GOD!"? Just WTH? No dude, I'm playing being a decent human being you loon. Yeah, I heard you that you don't agree w/Scientology. I have NO idea what you are talking about in terms of "data".

I think you have some wires crossed loonster, when you wrote something about "censoring people or data mine". Are those voices in your head telling you to write this? Tell him (or her) to chillax & have a ham sandwich.

You want the bottom line (AGAIN)? Fine, here it is... it's simple, as a HUMAN BEING, a NICE PERSON, you would point out to someone who is heading for the cliff, "excuse me sir, but you are heading for a CLIFF, you will fall and you will end up dead." Why, you could even post a sign!

THAT SAID, if you are an ass I might NOT point this out & might cover the sign temporarily. But, hey that's just me.
Cute.
I like all that.
...doesn't change anything for me, but I like it.
Thanks.
 
#96
***
I wasn't going to reply but eh, what the hell, keeps me from doing work around here..... SO! I have no idea what you mean by "data search". We all data search. Then you mix up your karma with this. Is that what you are saying? You figured out that your karma = data search?

Let me save you some data search time; yes, you will continue to have your "bad karma" until you learn the lesson.
Naw... sorry. This one I don't like. Karma is an agreed thing. One agrees such exists or they don't.
Basically, it is a construct persons who have failed to make a change use (on others).
funniest things though, if one such as myself points this out, the one insisting on karma's existence then tries to enforce it.
"I will prove karma exists you fooooool!!!!!"

ok.
Now. Didn't it come to exist because you just created it?
 
#97
Karma?

The name "karma" has definitions which many people do not define similarly enough.
One guy's significance for this mechanism is not the same as the next guy's... usually because of the experiences associated to the word are different.

Therefore I claim the right to call it a construct and simply do not use it.

What can be seen to actually be happening which originators of this "discovery" karma tried to explain, is the returning conditions of unresolved PERSONAL concerns.
This word karma has been morphed into meaning some natural law that the person is effect of.
Like the person is not the reason the "law" exists. Like the "law" existed before the person. This simply is not true. It then is not a law. It is an agreement. Take it on or don't.

The mechanism which was observed then called karma can be seen to be is this:
A person agreed (by decision to agree) to a new "truth" which then was new but now everyone "knows" it is this way. Just for kicks let's say the first time ever that a token was used to represent value (money). Now, so many lifetimes later we fear if we do not have money. Because everyone knows this is needed.
It's a "truth".
Later, yeah let's say another life or lifetimes later, this person is in circumstances which present a conflict to his previously agreed to decision. He wants to store wealth but no one else wants money. They want what you can do for them now. They only allow help. You can either help now or you can't. These new people do not allow you to store help. It's a new truth that you either agree to or you get no help.

But, because memory is as it might be for this person, he can not resolve the personal conflict. He still wants money but even if he created it, no one would use it.
Now, because people generally like to know "the unknown" (the unknown is a created construct too - a personal trap of nothing... remember "knowing" is different from "being aware of") and because people generally like to control what they experience, when there is a personal conflict which they can not resolve they are likely to return their living into similar conditions... until they resolve their conflict.

My basic difference here is that karma is something desired to be enforced by some, but actually the meaning (if expecting to get anywhere by using it) one might consider the meaning to be, "I still have something I decided which does not mesh well with what I am living now. I would probably be best off if I found out what it is that I disagree within myself about."

If that were done then one would properly want to search memory for the places and things he was with when he made the related or relevant decision (even if those are within previous lives).

Money is just one example. Every personal conflict is similar to this mechanism. An unwillingness or inability of one to simply change one's mind along with the willingness (desire) to self discover why the personal conflict exists.
Karma in this meaning is not enforceable.

If you accept this meaning, I can agree with you. If not, then I will assume you have an agreement which you do not want to change your mind about and don't want anyone (of intelligence) to disagree with you about it - in other words, not be free of your choice for "how to live". Not be free of your ideas of right and wrong.
To me, that just is not karma but some believe it is. So I do not use the word unless I think the person I am talking to understands it.

Okay? Feel better?
 
#99
Karma?

The name "karma" has definitions which many people do not define similarly enough.
One guy's significance for this mechanism is not the same as the next guy's... usually because of the experiences associated to the word are different.

Therefore I claim the right to call it a construct and simply do not use it.

What can be seen to actually be happening which originators of this "discovery" karma tried to explain, is the returning conditions of unresolved PERSONAL concerns.
This word karma has been morphed into meaning some natural law that the person is effect of.
Like the person is not the reason the "law" exists. Like the "law" existed before the person. This simply is not true. It then is not a law. It is an agreement. Take it on or don't.

The mechanism which was observed then called karma can be seen to be is this:
A person agreed (by decision to agree) to a new "truth" which then was new but now everyone "knows" it is this way. Just for kicks let's say the first time ever that a token was used to represent value (money). Now, so many lifetimes later we fear if we do not have money. Because everyone knows this is needed.
It's a "truth".
Later, yeah let's say another life or lifetimes later, this person is in circumstances which present a conflict to his previously agreed to decision. He wants to store wealth but no one else wants money. They want what you can do for them now. They only allow help. You can either help now or you can't. These new people do not allow you to store help. It's a new truth that you either agree to or you get no help.

But, because memory is as it might be for this person, he can not resolve the personal conflict. He still wants money but even if he created it, no one would use it.
Now, because people generally like to know "the unknown" (the unknown is a created construct too - a personal trap of nothing... remember "knowing" is different from "being aware of") and because people generally like to control what they experience, when there is a personal conflict which they can not resolve they are likely to return their living into similar conditions... until they resolve their conflict.

My basic difference here is that karma is something desired to be enforced by some, but actually the meaning (if expecting to get anywhere by using it) one might consider the meaning to be, "I still have something I decided which does not mesh well with what I am living now. I would probably be best off if I found out what it is that I disagree within myself about."

If that were done then one would properly want to search memory for the places and things he was with when he made the related or relevant decision (even if those are within previous lives).

Money is just one example. Every personal conflict is similar to this mechanism. An unwillingness or inability of one to simply change one's mind along with the willingness (desire) to self discover why the personal conflict exists.
Karma in this meaning is not enforceable.

If you accept this meaning, I can agree with you. If not, then I will assume you have an agreement which you do not want to change your mind about and don't want anyone (of intelligence) to disagree with you about it - in other words, not be free of your choice for "how to live". Not be free of your ideas of right and wrong.
To me, that just is not karma but some believe it is. So I do not use the word unless I think the person I am talking to understands it.

Okay? Feel better?
***
No. I don't feel better. I'm locked in my castle because some nit wanted bat soup on the other side of the globe. AND it has shot to hell my dinner arrangements~

However, that said, you made a very interesting (although oddly worded) point to consider (maybe). My take away was that you are saying at some points in history some things were considered normal or expected or acceptable. Like having slaves.

Well, I think you're not (on purpose) suppose to hurt others. Should you choose to be such a rascal then you'll get bad karma (to be paid now or when you come back/cause you were too stupid to know not to do that).

Do you remember the good old days before the internet? When arguments were only entered into by the physically or intellectually able.

Happy Easter.
 

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Naw... sorry. This one I don't like. Karma is an agreed thing. One agrees such exists or they don't.
Basically, it is a construct persons who have failed to make a change use (on others).
funniest things though, if one such as myself points this out, the one insisting on karma's existence then tries to enforce it.
"I will prove karma exists you fooooool!!!!!"

ok.
Now. Didn't it come to exist because you just created it?
*****
Exactly what did you do? Somebody sounds kind of nervous...
 
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