Christopher Knowles, Are Occult Symbols Present in Science? |365|

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  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Christopher Knowles, Are Occult Symbols Present in Science? |365|
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    Christopher Knowles finds the occult symbolism in pop culture and science impossible to ignore. [​IMG]
    photo by: Skeptiko
    (News announcer) When you celebrate science, perhaps it’s best to not get carried away. The inauguration ceremony included some, how shall we put it, original choreography.

    It was quite bizarre… do you associate this kind of dancing with the inauguration of a tunnel?

    The science journalists you’re listening to are commenting on the opening ceremony of the $7 billion technological marvel that is the Gotthard Tunnel in Switzerland. Here’s another report on this ceremony that the Daily Mail called, “One of the most bizarre opening ceremonies in history.”

    Dancing construction workers, angels with giant heads and whatever these things are. It’s a surreal ceremony…

    If you’ve read anything about this ceremony or saw video from the event, you know the uproar was about the overt, and I mean overt, occult symbology on display for some of Europe’s leading political figures.

    Now look, I know sometimes a goat-headed devil looking figure being worshipped by a flying baby with wings is just good clean fun for a lot of folks, but the recurring use of these unmistakable, and again, let me stress that in the case of the Gotthard Tunnel, the symbology was not hidden — it was really, really in your face — well the use of these occult images and themes, particularly in science and in sciency pop culture, is something that’s hard to just brush aside. At least that’s the opinion of today’s guest, author and creator of The Secret Sun website, Christopher Knowles (author of, Our Gods Wear Spandex):

    Christopher Knowles: We saw that Gotthard, Switzerland Tunnel, that weird hour-long ritual that so many people have commented on…

    Wait a second, before I play the rest of this clip, let me point out that what’s really great about Chris’ work, is that when he tackles this stuff, he dives deep:

    Christopher Knowles: The thing is, is that people just look at that and just say, “Oh that’s Satan, that’s Lucifer and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and it’s like, no, you don’t understand what these people are really about, you don’t understand what is really being put across here, you don’t understand the god that this goat figure really represents. It’s not Satan, it’s not Baphomet, it’s not Lucifer, it’s a much more, almost a more troubling figure in history.

    Now, if you’re not yet convinced that the gods of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Greece are really relevant to your life, you might want to take a step back and ask yourself, who does care about such things?

    Christopher Knowles: In that same ceremony we see this woman with this giant baby head and these wings, sort of flown in to this tunnel, it’s just the weirdest thing. I mean, you just can’t believe you’re seeing it, it’s mind boggling. But that’s actually Eros, that’s not Lucifer. These things have specific meanings, they have specific historical context that people overlooked because they don’t understand, they don’t know the history and if you don’t know the history, you don’t know what is really being said here and you don’t know what is really being believed here. You know, you don’t understand what these people really thing.

    Okay, but maybe you’re still not yet convinced that you should care. Well, let me get all Skeptiko on you, because as you know the primary focus of this show has been consciousness science and an attempt to answer the, “is there more” question. That is, are we more than biological robots in a meaningless universe? Because, if you’re not more, then you can ignore all this nonsense and chalk it up to crazy stuff that people do to entertain themselves.

    But, if you don’t feel comfortable answering the question in that way, and if you feel it’s rather obvious that we seem to be embedded in a field of extended consciousness that requires us to consider such things, and may even require us to ask deeper questions like — are the gods and demons of the Gotthard Tunnel real or a creation of our collective consciousness? That’s actually a question I asked Chris:

    Alex Tsakiris: So, what I hear you saying is, “Yeah, sure, there’s some reality to the thought form collective consciousness, where we put our attention we manifest,” but we have to balance that if we’re going to play this consensus reality game, which says, “I see you, you see me,” you know? We can observe things and measure things and even if that isn’t totally real, we know that’s a little bit less than literally real, we’re going to play that game because it’s useful. Then you’re saying in that same sense, “We are obliged to understand the history, understand the context in which these symbols and messages are being communicated and we can’t just chalk it up to the kind of, well, none if it’s real anyway, it’s all an illusion, it’s all assimilation,” whatever you want to say, which is used as kind of a diffusion of responsibility, of personal responsibility, that, “I don’t have to really understand it.”

    Christopher Knowles: No, well there are two sort of polar opposite reactions. That’s one of them, that’s sort of the secular mindset that, “This is just all nonsense, I don’t need to worry about this, blah, blah, blah,” even though this is happening in a government controlled and financed context and setting. I mean, if people in the government are paying for this, they’re doing so for a reason, they’re just not doing it for jollies. But then there’s the opposite polar, maybe it’s almost like a, roughly speaking a left/right polar reaction. So the left secular reaction is like, “Oh, who cares, it’s just nonsense, it doesn’t mean anything,” and then the right reaction may be more religiously orientated, it’s like, “Well, that’s all Satanist, it’s obviously all Satanist.”

    You can just dismiss it and say, “I’m going to make this all about me, I’m going to make this all about my religion, all about my belief system,” you’re not engaging with what is actually being said.

    Stick around, we’re about to dive deep into Skeptiko with our guest Chris Knowles.
     
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  2. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    I haven't listened to the podcast yet but I did just watch the Gotthard Tunnel opening Ceremony. So bizarre. Trying to understand what I just watched.
     
  3. Steve from ABQ

    Steve from ABQ Member

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    I get a little confused by this topic. Does occult = evil to Chris/Alex? Aren't they both friends with Gordon White? He uses medieval grimoires, which you guys linked to Satan in the podcast. Is the occult only evil when the big bad corporate global overlords use it, but not chaos or other magicians?
     
  4. Steve from ABQ

    Steve from ABQ Member

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    Also, what do you think of Manly P. Hall or similar folks?
     
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  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    ???
     
  6. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions (somewhat paraphrased) at the end of the podcast:

    What do you make of Chris's basic premise, which is that there is the "occult" -- as in hidden and in esoteric symbology -- running through our culture (we see it in pop/mass media, even in government agencies -- NASA and its emblems, dollar bills, on buildings, and so on)?

    Chris claims that sometimes it's so blatant it's impossible to deny. What do you think? Is it real, or is it exaggerated? Is it unimportant, or just plain crazy? If you think it's real, what do you think is behind the symbology? Who's using it and why?
     
  7. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions (somewhat paraphrased) at the end of the podcast...

    Well, first I'd like to thank Alex for taking the trouble to ask Chris to explain some of the inside baseball, as well as where necessary explaining it himself. In my view, this makes for a much more understandable podcast, but in this case I don't know what to think and have very little to say. Except, perhaps, that it's all very depressing, whether there's something to it all or not. Either way up, it doesn't say much about anything encouraging or worthwhile.
     
  8. When it comes to religious/spiritual rites and rituals, what matters is intention of the practitioners. The power of rites and rituals is mental and in that realm, intention is what matters. If the practitioners think they are doing something good, for the benefit of others, then that will be the effect of the rite. If they think they are doing something bad, selfish, harmful to others, then that will be the effect. The symbols only have power according to what is in the mind of the practitioner.
     
  9. Steve from ABQ

    Steve from ABQ Member

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    I agree completely. I was trying to understand Alex and Chris’s take.
     
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  10. I think symbology is sometimes accidental and sometimes intentional. When symbols are selected as symbols, on "NASA and its emblems, dollar bills, on buildings" and in certain works of art it is obviously intentional. In more general works of art and media it might be accidental or intentional. But what the symbols really mean varies according to the artist. Many pre-Christian / non-Christian symbols and traditions were given "evil" associations by the church hierarchy because they wanted to stop people from respecting non-Christian traditions.

    You have to interpret the symbols in each case individually according to the intent of the artist.

    In other threads we have discussed a clique of satanist pedophiles that runs throughout all levels of society and therefore includes government officials. I'm not sure how strong their influence is on symbols in government and other aspects of society. I think it's a good question. But I don't think the symbols have any effect on people who don't understand and agree with their meaning and intent. But they could have some power through those who are in on the secret.

    We have a thread on "evil" here:
    http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/does-evil-really-excist-or-not.2592/
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
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  11. Steve from ABQ

    Steve from ABQ Member

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    I agree with Chris about the presence of occult symbolism in our culture. I think what it all means is up for interpretation. Sometimes he reminds me of crazy fundamentalist preacher, though. He’s smarter than that. This shit is man made anyway. I’m a former fundy Christian that left it long ago. All I know is that It matters what we do to others.
     
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  12. The experts on this subject would be artists. (Maybe @Andrew Paquette can comment.)
     
  13. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    Ahhh finally the occult
     
  14. Baccarat

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    Lucifer is not Satan. Christians made it synonymous. Lucifer represents the light bearer, similar to Prometheus. Its rumored he is the one who gave humans the light when GOD kicked humans the out of the garden. Of course it probably allegorical.

    Lucifer represents the planet venus, I haven't listen to the podcast yet. But Symbolism of the Occult is everywhere in Science, TV, Religion. (Cross, Medical symbol) even in corporations. Symbols rule the word, not information.

    Occult is not evil, you intention is evil.

    Many scientist are downlow Occultists, ever had a post about it you can look up. Many scientists who have been in the field for over 20 years who PHDs blah blah blah are in to the occult. It clears up a lot of the muddies redundant waters that go on here.

    The stuff I seen (TK) will probably never be portrayed to the public in a lab setting. Occultists laugh at that, also laugh at new agers who highjack certain aspects of the occult and turned it in the the whole new ago stuff we have now
     
  15. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    Not all occultists even believe in the western version of satan, because different cultures don't even have Satan in their oral or traditional systems.

    Occultism has nothing to do with worshipping anything, its not a religion

    Start with Manly P Hall
     
  16. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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  17. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

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    The occult sciences are the true science. Not the young arrogant western science, that is slowly being exposed a lies
     
  18. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    This was a podcast that seemed dull at first, but then grew on me.
    Agreed - it would be very interesting to read Andy's point of view.

    My brain clicked into gear when the discussion came on to the 'playful' use of occult symbolism and practices. Wiseman's creepy game of selling himself to Satan is just the start, because I immediately thought of Marina Abramović's disgusting satanic 'art'., beloved by Podesta and Hillary Clinton, and then of The Pentagon itself!

    [Possibly irrelevant speculative waffle]
    The idea that symbols have power in themselves, is a very strange one to accept. I mean, there are symbols galore in maths, but it is generally understood that these are ultimately irrelevant - like the addresses of an object in a computer program - you can swap them for another set of symbols, and do exactly the same mathematics. The normal way to understand things in the materialist world is to decompose them into parts and see how they combine together to do something. You can't do that to a genuine symbol - a cross, or a swastika only has meaning as a whole.

    I suppose this merges into the question of how anything has meaning in a materialist world. Materialists would argue that the 'meaning' of a piece of cake is ultimately based on the fact that it gives us energy, to be used to help us stay alive and procreating as effectively as possible. Disregarding the questions about whether cake is good for us, the point is that cake usually has a lot more meaning than as just a fuel, but the fact that materialists can find some use for it, seems to defuse the argument that it really has any intrinsic meaning.

    This set me off thinking wondering there are totally useless symbolic things that are undeniably meaningful to us. One example would be a deep kiss. There is absolutely no sensible materialist story as to why we do this. It doesn't help us reproduce (except in as much as it is symbolic of our attraction to someone), it might even expose us to a little more risk of infections, it doesn't give us energy in a physical sense, and you can't analyse it reductively in any meaningful way. Yet kissing isn't an arbitrary token of affection - you can't replace it with a handshake (say). This gives me a sense that there may be other symbolic things or practices that are powerful, in a way that can't be explained reductively!

    [/Possibly irrelevant speculative waffle]

    I think in the next interview with this guy, it might be good to laser down into one area and explore it in more detail.

    Agreed - I think it is vital to let guests talk for reasonable chunks of time - even if you (i.e. Alex) disagree with them.

    David
     
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  19. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    Which piece do you mean, David? I find Abramovic's work interesting, but I may have missed something. There's a history of challenging art associated with religion, Serrano's Piss Christ, with a crucifix suspended in urine, and Chris Ofili's The Holy Virgin Mary comprised of elephant dung, which may or may not be intended to offend. Even officially sanctioned Christian art can be extremely graphic, but often bows to more delicate sensibilities. When did you last see a naked and flailed Christ as a church icon?

    Symbols carry considerable power, which is why some people are so anxious to subvert them.
     
  20. Alex

    Alex New

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    Great point! :)
     

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