Cody Noconi, Can Entheogens Lead to Deep Spirituality? |360|

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Cody Noconi, Can Entheogens Lead to Deep Spirituality? |360|
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Cody Noconi of the Psilly Rabbits Podcast on whether entheogens and psychedelics lead to deep spirituality.

photo by: Skeptiko
[Joe Rogan] My first DMT experience changed everything I thought about the world.

The Joe Rogan podcast you’re listening to is hugely popular…

[Graham Hancock] So that’s the aliens, an utterly alien realm, filled with alien intelligences who communicate, and of course, the skeptics say, “Oh, it’s all just made up in your brain, but we don’t know that.”

This interview with Graham Hancock drew millions of listeners.

It’s quite a statement regarding how far our culture has come in trying to understand the relationship between psychedelics and consciousness

[Spiral Out 90704] Let’s go to YouTube, Spiral Out 90704 coming at you.

But this next clip may be even more remarkable.

[Spiral Out 90704] In one of my videos, there was a comment left asking me if I could make a video explaining why I don’t use entheogens any longer.

It’s from SpiralOut90704 and was published for the benefit of his 342 subscribers. It’s titled, ‘Why I no longer use entheogens’, and while the numbers may not be as impressive as the Joe Rogan interview with Graham Hancock, the thousands of trip reports available on YouTube may be an even more significant statement about what’s going with entheogens in our culture.

But what does it all mean and what are we supposed to do? Graham?

[Graham Hancock] Can we use changes in consciousness to understand the majestic complexity of the universe in which we live? And I think the answer is definitely yes.

SpiralOut90704?

[Spiral Out 90704] People need to understand that the mind is a very fragile thing, it can be bent in so many strange directions and some people’s mind can’t be bent as much as others and remain intact.

Stick around for a show on entheogens and my interview with Cody Noconi.

Coming up next on Skeptiko…
 
#2
"What do you make of the renewed interest in entheogens? Its not all that new, but it certainly has been going on for a few years and it seems to be gaining more and more momentum. Is it good? Are there some powerful deep spiritual implications and consciousness advancing implications? Or not?"
I am in favor of 1) scientists conducting research into medical uses and 2) psychologists conducting research into psychiatric uses and spiritual effects and 3) use in traditional ceremonies. I am against illegal use that supports organized crime gangs (which will not produce good karma) or involves illegally obtained substances because they are sometimes mixed with other drugs that produce violent reactions that can harm other people and the user.

I'm not sure about the spiritual implications of renewed interest - like if it's a sign of the Age of Aquarius? I don't have an opinion about that.

But I do think psychedelics can produce spiritual experiences because almost anything can produce spiritual experiences. Any fake religion can produce spiritual experiences because humans are hardwired to have spiritual experiences, so why shouldn't psychedelics produce them? But it might be that our materialistic culture has made it harder for people to have spiritual experiences, in that case these drugs might be the right medicine to treat that disease.

Personally my own approach has been to use meditation to produce spiritual experiences. Meditation is free, legal, and doesn't make you puke like Ayahuasca and some other entheogens.
 
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#3
I am in favor of 1) scientists conducting research into medical uses and 2) psychologists conducting research into psychiatric uses and spiritual effects and 3) use in traditional ceremonies. I am against illegal use that supports organized crime gangs (wihch will not produce good karma) or involves illegally obtained substances because they sometimes mixed with other drugs that produce violent reactions that can harm other people and the user.

I'm not sure about the spiritual implications of renewed interest - like if it's a sign of the Age of Aquarius? I don't have an opinion about that.

But I do think psychedelics can produce spiritual experiences because almost anything can produce spiritual experiences. Any fake religion can produce spiritual experiences because humans are hardwired to have spiritual experiences, so why shouldn't psychedelics produce them?

Personally my own approach has been to use meditation to produce spiritual experiences. Meditation is free, legal, and doesn't make you puke like Ayahuasca and some other entheogens.
IMHO I think it might be best not to get too sidetracked into legal issues, and concentrate on the implications of entheogens to consciousness.

David
 
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#4
I think it might be best not to get too sidetracked into legal issues, and concentrate on the implications of entheogens.

David
I was answering the question at the end of the podcast. Alex didn't set any limits on responses.

The karmic consequences of financing drug gangs that run child prostitution rings, undermine governments in foreign countries, and commit other horrible crimes are part of the spiritual implications. I realize people who use illegal drugs will will not want to hear my opinions on this and may try to silence me but I will resist censorship.
 
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#5
From the transcript: "So, I’ll tell you what, let’s move onto the second part of my little process here and that is, as I like to say, look for the conspiracy and for some folks they may not think there’s much there, but man, there is a lot there."

Alex,

If you want to talk about conspiracy, you should include a discussion of how organized crime gangs are the source of drugs to those who use them illegally. How is that spiritual?
 
#6
From the transcript: "So, I’ll tell you what, let’s move onto the second part of my little process here and that is, as I like to say, look for the conspiracy and for some folks they may not think there’s much there, but man, there is a lot there."

Alex,

If you want to talk about conspiracy, you should include a discussion of how organized crime gangs are the source of drugs to those who use them illegally. How is that spiritual?
And supporting the state - an institution fundamentally based on initiatory violence, manipulative (or explicitly deceptive) propaganda and maintenance of stuctural social inequality and opression - is much more spiritual, then? Not a single non-state group - "illegal" drug producers and dealers included - has caused as much suffering as any state causes on daily basis.

As an anarchist and a proponent of freedom of psychoactive substances usage, I do not condemn individuals and communities that allow people to use them - even if, sometimes (but not always), such communities and individuals do not show high moral qualities. If state forcibly forbids something, people can and should find ways to avoid a ban. And they do find ways.
 
#8
IMHO I think it might be best not to get too sidetracked into legal issues, and concentrate on the implications of entheogens to consciousness.

David
I think it's fair game... but I get yr point as well.

I have a entire show coming up dedicated to the conspiratorial part of this topic.
 
#9
In simple terms I've always thought of NDEs and other realms being the real reality and the brain a kind of filter which keeps us grounded in this world.
Near death knocks out the filter and allows access to that which is always there but unperceived.
Maybe psychedelics do something similar - they just get the brain out of the way to open up new horizons and perspectives?
 
#10
And supporting the state - an institution fundamentally based on initiatory violence, manipulative (or explicitly deceptive) propaganda and maintenance of stuctural social inequality and opression - is much more spiritual, then? Not a single non-state group - "illegal" drug producers and dealers included - has caused as much suffering as any state causes on daily basis.
I think we agree on a lot. In my opinoin, in many cases "government" is just a name for the biggest baddest organized crime gang. Just because tax payments allow them to provide protection from real threats like crime, and foreign invaders, and evil corporations, doesn't mean they are any different from the mafia that extorts money in exchange for protection from petty criminals.

But I don't agree that is it okay to support drug gangs that are also involved in child prostitution etc because the governing sociopaths are restricting my access to a recreational drug. And I don't think the child victims would agree either. The spiritual implications regarding karma are pretty clear on this. Some people who think there is a morally compelling reason to resist the government do it by growing their own or setting up a lab in their home.

As an anarchist and a proponent of freedom of psychoactive substances usage, I do not condemn individuals and communities that allow people to use them - even if, sometimes (but not always), such communities and individuals do not show high moral qualities. If state forcibly forbids something, people can and should find ways to avoid a ban. And they do find ways.
 
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#11
In simple terms I've always thought of NDEs and other realms being the real reality and the brain a kind of filter which keeps us grounded in this world.
Near death knocks out the filter and allows access to that which is always there but unperceived.
Maybe psychedelics do something similar - they just get the brain out of the way to open up new horizons and perspectives?
But psychedelics also produce undisputed hallucinations, so how do users know psychedelics are not also causing them to hallucinate in the alternate realms?
 
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#13
Is it actually possible to demarcate any (non-veridical) experience into hallucinatory or not?

David
I don't know. I would respond further but I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make (what are the implications of your question to the discussion?) and I don't want to reply to something you are not really saying or try to answer every possible interpretation of your question. If you will elaborate on your reply I might have more to say.
 
#14
From the transcript: "So, I’ll tell you what, let’s move onto the second part of my little process here and that is, as I like to say, look for the conspiracy and for some folks they may not think there’s much there, but man, there is a lot there."

Alex,

If you want to talk about conspiracy, you should include a discussion of how organized crime gangs are the source of drugs to those who use them illegally. How is that spiritual?
Now hold on, which drugs? Do you know they are sourced from criminal gangs or are you just assuming?

Even if the drugs are sourced from the most disgusting of groups I suspect the general ignorance of the purchaser will not damn them, nor are all spiritual experiences "good" experiences anyways. There are hellish ndes that I still consider spiritual. Do you mean to equate spirituality with wholesomeness?
 
#15
Is it actually possible to demarcate any (non-veridical) experience into hallucinatory or not?

David
Without some connection to reality it's impossible to demarcate because measuring the experience against reality is how we demarcate between truth and hallucination.

We could guess at meta truths though, as in someone who dreams of being stabbed wakes suddenly and sees a mosquito on their arm.
 
#16
Now hold on, which drugs? Do you know they are sourced from criminal gangs or are you just assuming?

Even if the drugs are sourced from the most disgusting of groups I suspect the general ignorance of the purchaser will not damn them, nor are all spiritual experiences "good" experiences anyways. There are hellish ndes that I still consider spiritual. Do you mean to equate spirituality with wholesomeness?
I am talking about karma. We experience the consequences of our actions. One easy to understand example of this is the life review where you experience how your actions affected other people from their point of view. I would not want to experience the harm that patronizing drug gangs allows them to inflict on their many and varied victims, nor would I like to experience the consequences of such actions in any other way or to have it on my conscience. Good deeds have good consequences, bad deeds have bad consequences.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "equate spirituality with wholesomeness". I'll just say I don't believe there is any advantage in seeking a spiritual experience if you have to harm other people to have it. In that case you are gratifying your ego not developing spiritually. Life is designed to give us what we need to grow. There will be plenty of time to have spiritual experiences when you are dead.

I don't believe in damnation.
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/principles
 
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#17
equate spirituality with wholesomeness?
I would equate spiritual growth with goodness. I believe "evil" is a consequence of ignorance and that all souls eventually learn that it is preferable to do good and undesirable to harm others. Karma is how we learn this. By experiencing the consequences of our actions we learn that ultimately good actions have good (desirable) consequences and bad actions have bad (undesirable) consequences. It is more pleasant to love than to hate but we have to learn this from hard experience.
 
#18
I don't know. I would respond further but I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make (what are the implications of your question to the discussion?) and I don't want to reply to something you are not really saying or try to answer every possible interpretation of your question. If you will elaborate on your reply I might have more to say.
Well you said:
But psychedelics also produce undisputed hallucinations, so how do users know psychedelics are not also causing them to hallucinate in the alternate realms?
My point is ultimately what is an "undisputed hallucination"? I mean I am not trying to push entheogens, though I do think there were banned for no really good reason, and I do realise that you don't think they are a valid way to access the greater reality, but these entheogens in the form of plants do seem to have played a major religious role.

You can even find sites that argue that meditation sometimes plunges people into serious depression. I guess no method of accessing the larger reality is without risks.

David
 
#19
Well you said:


My point is ultimately what is an "undisputed hallucination"?

David
That is not a point, it is a question. What do you think it implies? I am not getting your meaning.

But I think this should clarify what I mean:

http://www.metrolyrics.com/lucy-in-the-sky-with-diamonds-lyrics-beatles.html?ModPagespeed=noscript
Picture yourself in a boat on a river
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes

Cellophane flowers of yellow and green
Towering over your head
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
And she's gone

Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Ah


Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain
Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies
Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers
That grow so incredibly high

Newspaper taxis appear on the shore
Waiting to take you away
Climb in the back with your head in the clouds
And you're gone

Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Ah

Picture yourself on a train in a station
With plasticine porters with looking glass ties
Suddenly someone is there at the turnstile
The girl with the kaleidoscope eyes


Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Ah
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Ah
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
If you see marmalade skies in physical reality you are surely hallucinating.
If you see them in the other realms during a drug trip, can you be sure they are real?
My point is that you can't be sure of anything you perceive in the other realms if you get there by taking hallucinogenic drugs.

I haven't said anything different now than I wrote before so if I am not getting at your point please help me to understand it better.
 
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#20
You can even find sites that argue that meditation sometimes plunges people into serious depression. I guess no method of accessing the larger reality is without risks.

David
I don't say that exactly on my web site but I come pretty close:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/meditation-1#meditation_danger
...
Meditation can release a lot of suppressed emotions ...
...
Meditation can make you more emotional....
...
Meditation can turn your world-view upside down and that can be disconcerting. Meditation might bring you to the realization that much unhappiness in your past was needless, and all the pleasure you get from the things you love and enjoy is just an illusion. While realization brings equanimity, brief glimpses short of realization into the truth of non-self and emptiness can be disturbing. When your world-view gets turned upside down, and you are left facing a completely new reality that is unfamiliar to you, there can be a psychological upheaval.
...
It is possible to develop the habit of repressing thoughts and emotions from meditating if you push unpleasant thoughts and emotions away in order to maintain concentration. Learning to let go without repressing requires experiencing the thought or emotion while relaxing.
...
There are other serious dangers involved in excessive amounts of meditation that few people know about. This is explained at: buddhistgeeks.com.
 
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