Coronavirus Pandemic

@Atlantis

Nothing would surprise me if it became clear that any of the "theories" you mentioned above end up being true or partially true. But I don't entertain any of those possibilities in my overall world view as a.) if true, nothing I can do about it anyways and b.) operating on assumptions like that likely harms others (and myself).

Even the possibilities suggested by Hurmanetar are, for me, more plausible, yet the same tow things apply with one exception... and that is to do what I can to expand awareness of the possibilities BUT to do so within the framework of, "how can this information as a possibility help you such that you become a better person for others and yourself.

So, based on the above, my operational protocols require me to operate within the framework I perceive is held by the individual or group with which I am interacting. I then strive to "locate" where they are within te set of all possibility, and then seek their hand such that I might gradually assist them by pulling them out of the traps their mind maintains for them.. all and only if they are willing to and desire to extricate themselves from their nightmare.
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Then you should have in your back pocket "hydroxychloroquine" (or/ not as good Chloroquine) and zinc.

I knew of the evil inner workings since about 1976, I was pretty young. I was "manning" our entry gates (park ranger then) and the ranger I relieved was X-military (most of the rangers were X military). Well, he had a great pal who would come visit him. He knew a lot of real odd inside people. ANYWAY, this agent gave him a file. When I took over the gate, he forgot to take his file with him (he went on break).

I began to read. Yeah, my jaw dropped. I quickly called the secretary to high tail it up to the gatehouse & make me copies. I got them just in time before he returned and gave me the evil eye & yelled, "DID YOU LOOK AT THIS!?" I looked at him like he was mad & said WTH are you talking about? He huffed and I just casually left.

I took the copies home to show my mom & sister. As they read my sister started crying (she was my older sister & not prone to crying/actually she was kind of mean!). But, then my mom (who to this day is the smartest person I've known) looked at me & said, "You know this could get us all killed." I nodded my head yep.

I was AWAKE and knew some of the nonsense. It talked a lot about the Kennedy killing, laser weapons and the 7 "sisters" code for some oil companies. Oh yes, and my all-time favorite was about the Catholic church. It was straight to the point.

Do you want to hear something WEIRD? Okay, so one day I was manning the gate (Key Biscayne, Florida). Nixon lived on that island. Just before closing at sunset, a limo came up, they just wanted to drive around & look. I said, "how many people in there"? 3 counting the driver, I said .75 cents. LOL (.25cents per head). With this the back highly tinted window came down (the driver seemed like a real weirdo!) BUT, there in the backseat sat Richard Nixon and BeBe Rebozo (BB was a banker). But they were sitting close together in the back seat, holding hands! WTH who does that!? They were dressed in what looked like expensive black wool suits or coats. They were grinning ear to ear at me. I thought WTH? Did they think I'd not charge them? So I said again (rather flatly) SEVENTY-FIVE CENTS. I don't think those clowns carried money! They scrounged around until they found it.

As they drove down the road I thought to myself and these people are running our country. GESH! Nixon sold that house, they tore it down, I wanted to go get the front doorknobs. But never did. I wish I took the time!!
 
https://news.yahoo.com/moscow-begins-lockdown-during-tougher-push-curb-virus-105634845.html

Moscow (AFP) - Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday urged Moscow's 12 million residents to respect a strict new lockdown, as other parts of the country began to introduce similar steps to curb the coronavirus outbreak.
The enforcement of the new rules, which Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin suddenly announced late Sunday, coincided with the beginning of a "non-working" week Putin declared last week.​
"I ask you to take these forced but absolutely necessary measures... very seriously and completely responsibly," Putin told Muscovites.​
The capital has become the epicentre of the contagion in Russia, and Mayor Sergei Sobyanin's new rules allow only trips to buy essential goods, go to hospital, to take out the rubbish or walk pets.​
The Red Square in the heart of Moscow was eerily empty, and the streets of Europe's most populous city quiet, though traffic could still be seen on the roads.​
Police cars drove slowly through the streets,on the lookout for Muscovites breaking the rules.​
...​

How covid-19 is affecting a small town in Russia

 
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I posted these two posts on Facebook but thought it was worth sharing here. Curious about other people's thoughts regarding this topic.

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Do I believe what the Chinese government is saying based on past behavior? No.

Do I believe what the US Government is saying, based on past behavior? No. (Not to mention the different sides of the aisle arguing against each other...)

Do I believe the WHO and other health agencies are saying, based on past behavior? No.

So what is really going on? I don’t know. We live in an age of too much information including intentional disinformation from multiple angles, definitely including government agencies.

I’ve seen all the theories from there is no virus at all to it’s a bioengineered weapon mutating into several forms. (Watch this get flagged for spreading misinformation just from mentioning that!) Everything from there is no problem at all to this will become a big problem.

What’s the truth? I don’t know.

Personally, I’m not worried about the virus, even though we have confirmed cases here in Santa Cruz, California. Most of the information points to it being not really worse than the common cold or flu, though more contagious.

After all, I personally take many steps to have a strong immune system.

But make no mistake, the panic is very real.

More worrisome in my mind is the economic impacts that are already occurring and are going to get worse. The market is crashing, probably globally. This will end up worse than 2008.

Forget the virus for a moment, are you ready for that?

This is not to say that money is more important than the lives of people that the virus is claiming. Just that with our globally reliant systems, the total impact of this thing is difficult to grasp. My business has already been impacted. I recognize this will get worse before it gets better.

Being prepared for emergencies is not hysteria. It’s like insurance. It is worth having. And the best time to get insurance is well before you need it. In my mind, toilet paper is the least of your worries.

I’m reminded of the old Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times"…We certainly do.

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I put out some of my thoughts on the coronavirus yesterday. Today, I feel compelled to continue that thought as things are developing fast! I ended that piece by saying that the economic consequences of this will be worse than the disease for the vast majority of people.

But that’s not the complete picture. I neglected to mention the political consequences of such.

In other words, it is my belief that the “solutions” are going to be worse than the problem itself.

Make no mistake, this flu is problematic in and of itself. But the scare tactics are overhyping the effects of this to the moon and back. Even if the flu is way more contagious and a bit more potent, as it appears to be, understand that that can be true AND it can be overhyped as well.

Those in power, including the medical monopoly, live by a golden rule (as in he who has the gold makes the rules). The rule is this…

Let no crisis go wasted.

What we will see is government over-reach. What we will see is medical over-reach. We can already see elements of this in play.

What is the medical message? Wash your hands. Cover your coughs. Clean surfaces. Avoid contact with people. Wear a facemask.

It’s not bad advice in and of itself. But the hidden message is you are powerless if you come in contact with this disease.

Not a single word about the hundred things you can do to support your immune system. It even seems that messages about vitamin C and other possibilities are being squashed. That’s because the medical monopoly (which includes all its lobbying power and the revolving door of politicians, scientists, etc.) doesn’t believe in this viewpoint…because they don’t profit from it.

They believe the only things that can save us are drugs. And not existing ones (despite there being evidence of some of these working against this virus). We’ve got to spend BILLIONS developing new ones. Understand that that money has already been given with more to come.

Yes, you can watch the medical cash grab unfold in real time.

What is the greater medical message? The government, the CDC, the WHO, let daddy (*cough* Big Brother) come and save you because you can’t possibly do anything on your own.

As this continues to unfold here’s some things that I sadly expect in the USA…

There will be something along the lines of a Medical Patriot Act.

This will lead to either a new medical department of the government or greatly expanded powers in an existing medical department.

When all is said and done the money spent will make the bank bailout of 2008 look small. Yet the vast majority of it will be going to big industry once again not to the people that are hurting.

The first amendment right of free speech will be clamped down to “prevent the spread of misinformation”.

And there will be massing cheering for the action taken from most people, not recognizing the further erosion of our rights.

I hope I am wrong. I fear I am not.
^^^^
I reread your post, what puzzles me is; how come everybody wants to shut Pres. Trump up about the "hydroxychloroquine"????? I've seen more & more reliable posts from gov. officials, medical people & just everyday people who said it WORKED like a miracle.

Was some pharma working on the "cure" (vaccine)? But Trump is stopping it by blabbing a cheap cure?
 
^^^^
I reread your post, what puzzles me is; how come everybody wants to shut Pres. Trump up about the "hydroxychloroquine"????? I've seen more & more reliable posts from gov. officials, medical people & just everyday people who said it WORKED like a miracle.

Was some pharma working on the "cure" (vaccine)? But Trump is stopping it by blabbing a cheap cure?
The dems/left/legacy media/establishment dempublicans/and most of the rest of the socialist leaning world wants Trump to lose in 2020 and they are so married to this outcome they do everything they can to ensure MORE PEOPLE DIE because they believe that helps them beat Trump.

That's the whole bottom line.

What a sick world.
 
The dems/left/legacy media/establishment dempublicans/and most of the rest of the socialist leaning world wants Trump to lose in 2020 and they are so married to this outcome they do everything they can to ensure MORE PEOPLE DIE because they believe that helps them beat Trump.

That's the whole bottom line.

What a sick world.
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Well, no wonder they keep losing. Because Trump is going to run away with it unless they cheat. I got the "vote by mail" yesterday form.

I imagine he got into their "cookie jars". Like the W.H.O. & the U.N. and other things he shut down. They probably got kickbacks from all that.
 
"Mass. General Dr. Alister Martin tweeted in frustration last week after he opened up about having to put 12 patients on ventilators in just one shift.

“These are such higher volumes than we have ever seen - our baseline is usually 2-3 patients a day and now we are seeing a tremendous increase in patients being put on ventilators, its really really unprecedented, a huge surge,” said Martin."



https://www.boston25news.com/news/m...-lack-ventilators/WXC2SNMBWVFQRJABWFSMQUS5OQ/

MGH doctor opens up about struggles with overload of patients, lack of ventilators​
...​
Mass. General Dr. Alister Martin tweeted in frustration last week after he opened up about having to put 12 patients on ventilators in just one shift.
These are such higher volumes than we have ever seen - our baseline is usually 2-3 patients a day and now we are seeing a tremendous increase in patients being put on ventilators, its really really unprecedented, a huge surge,” said Martin.
Putting a patient on a ventilator is hard work and it requires more than just the manpower to do it - patients must be heavily medicated during the process and there is a concern over a shortage of the drugs needed.​
“To get someone on ventilator we need to do couple things - one is sedating them, two is paralyzing them,” said Martin. “The medications we use to do that are in short supply, just in the last few months we have seen a 50 percent increase nationwide in the orders or request for sedatives and paralytics. So, we are getting more creative as providers. Luckily, we were trained for this, it’s not just about plan A and B anymore, we need to be thinking plan D, E, and F if we get to the point in time when we don’t have these medications."​
Martin also weighed in on the effects ethnicity and economic disparity has on the number of people contracting the virus.​
“Just here at my hospital, at Mass. General, nearly 50 percent of patients who have COVID-19 are Hispanic,” said Martin. “There are a lot of different reasons [for that], first of all its harder to get tested when you live in a poor community. Our initial testing requirements were so strict we couldn’t really decide who had COVID-19 and who didn’t, so were were missing a lot of cases. Number 2, when you live in poverty its hard to tell people to do the things we are telling them to do like self isolate or quarantine. Just last week I had a patient who is a young mom of three kids who lives with her elderly mom in a one bedroom in Dorchester. She said, ‘Doctor, how am I supposed to self isolate?’”​
 
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/hospitals-overflowing-bodies-us-epicenter-virus-69906283

Hospitals overflowing with bodies in US epicenter of virus
...​
A surge in deaths in the epicenter of the crisis in the U.S. has overwhelmed the city’s permanent morgues and filled storage spaces in many hospitals to capacity. The Federal Emergency Management Agency is sending 85 refrigerated trucks to serve as temporary morgues, the city said.​
It’s been that way for days at Brooklyn Hospital Center, where a worker Tuesday wheeled out a gurney carrying a body covered in white plastic, a forklift operator carefully raised a body into the trailer and undertakers came to claim the remains of yet another of the city’s nearly 1,000 coronavirus dead.​
 
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LOL, "Orange man" going to be re-elected in 2020.

WTH are you still doing in California? Get out. I was born in Florida (Miami) it turned into a nightmare. Florida is no place to raise a family. I told my husband, "You want kids? Then we have to move." We moved to Georgia I am SO GLAD we did.

We both quit our jobs, sold our home, knew nobody in Ga. & didn't have jobs here and we did great! First off, people are pretty polite here, granted you don't have the great seafood or museums, but it's natural. For the children, they can go to any state college in Georgia free as long as they keep a "B" average. Consider that. If you want them to go to Emory University (one of the best private colleges) you just get a job at Emory & they go free.

Both of my children are now in their 20's, make over 6 figure incomes & either built or bought their new homes. My son even has a "golden parachute" in his contract, I NEVER got that! Plus 100% 401K matching, benefits are great! I'm not a Bible thumper (we do tend to have those) but you can silence them with manners. BECAUSE when you come here, everyone wants to put you in a box. I don't fit in a box. So they will ask "What church do you go to?" What neighborhood do you live in & what do you do for a living?" All things to put you into the box.

I just tell them I don't discuss religion, people's age or politics because my mother taught us that was rude to ask. OR you can just tell them you go to the "Free Chapel", you're an independent & age... hum (Jack Benny 39). I personally tell them I'm 22 & have been ill lately. OR I'm 78 to which their eyes pop out & they tell me how GREAT I look! I hope so... not 78. LOL I might go with I'm 82. OMG, can you imagine the face cream I could sell!!!!?

You can buy MY house! :) You'll get a lot more house here I think. I'm on Lake Lanier, gated, in a forest (lots of deer & wildlife), it's really safe. Our house is like a castle so it is 670K (which is pretty cheap for what you'd get). 3 stories, 3 car garage. Eh, I should send you my listing, but THAT would be too weird I guess. Go on Zillow. The house across from me was 2M, and most of the houses here are 1M or up. It's the dock permit that jacks up the price. I'm working on a permit (I never cared before). I won't raise the price, but if I got one, it would be = to maybe 900K I think. At least 850K.

I was watching all the demographics of who was moving here. They are all from out west. But right now with this stupid pandemic, it certainly put a damper on selling. GOD, I thought what if someone wants to come to look, so I already have a bunch of rules ready. But, nobody is looking at houses. I mean I can see I got 600 looks in 30 days and 25 "saves". But, I think people are too afraid to move right now.

This is the weirdest time... everyone worldwide "sheltered in place". I have no idea what is up. I'm just staying in. This will be my first Easter without my family :-( I've told them we all have to have Easter in our own homes (mostly because of new grandbaby). Is anyone going to have Easter dinner with their extended families???? I hate this.
I have to say that I am watching what is happening in the US with a sense of utter horror and astonishment. My heart goes out to you guys. I don't know what to say.

Here in Oz we have a coordinated approach between Federal and State governments. Every time I go on to Google I get a Fed Dept of Health alert offering updated information. The state government says stay at home. We can't gather in greater numbers than 2. Police have actually been charging people wandering around without cause. Bars and restaurants are closed for other than take out [we call it take away]. We are taking the risk seriously.

In fact we have been deluged with positive and supportive messages from just about everybody. My mobile carrier has given me an extra 25GB of data and my internet provider has given me an extra 250GB - that per month until the crisis ends. I presume that's so we can stay indoors and be glued to televisions or telephones. My health fund has delayed a premium increase [I do extras only - not hospital]. My bank would suspend my mortgage payments if I needed that. It got so the positive messages became a problem - too much. Every business that has my email address told me it is still there for me.

My employer says we have to work from home unless we have good reasons to do otherwise. That seems to be working. I have been able to work from anywhere for the past 18 months in any case, so I am set up nicely as it happens.

Today I bought masks from the chemist - only 4 [but damned expensive at AUD$2.50 each - but that will do me for some time] - and I saw a kid with an 18 roll pack of toilet paper - so the panic buying seems to be over.

We made a few mistakes early on, but got over them and got smart.

I have been tracking new cases in my state, and numbers have been declining for 6 days straight. Only 39 yesterday [for a total of 2773 in a population of around 7.5m]. The Australian Covid 19 death number is 51 in a population of around 25m.

Social distancing seems to be working. New cases continue to appear in the more densely populated areas, like Sydney. However there have been under 30 new cases reported yesterday in a population of 5.3m.

I am stunned by news out of the US. What I hear and see suggests an utterly shambolic response. I so wish that is no more than bad reporting.

I am no fan of our current Prime Minister, but he is supported by a professional and competent public service that makes him look better than he maybe deserves. But he is at least, in keeping with our recent run of PMs, incompetent within a tolerable range. He functions on a solid raft of human decency and competence - and he does not have king-like powers, so he can't go too nuts. He is genuinely trying to be an okay national leader at the moment.

My thoughts, best wishes and prayers are with you. Hang in.
 
I am stunned by news out of the US. What I hear and see suggests an utterly shambolic response. I so wish that is no more than bad reporting.
I live in Ohio. Our Governor and top health officials were one of the earliest state groups to act. We have, effectively, been in the same structure you articulated in Oz. New York was a bit delayed in its action, but being a global center of commerce packed as densely with people as any city on earth, it seemed likely to struggle with any easily transmittable disease.

Ohio isn't necessarily representative of the entire U.S. but I would call the U.S. response shambolic by any objective measure.
 
Thank You to the Mother Who Brought Her Son to the Playground
By Allan Stevo
April 9, 2020

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/04...mother-who-brought-her-son-to-the-playground/

In West Coast lockdown land, where everyone is compliant, I saw a miserable looking old man taking photos of children and parents who were having an amazing time together at an officially closed playground.

Locked in for more than a week, the parents had enough and took the children out to play.

It was a joy to behold, watching grandmother doing her laps, dad chasing the sons around, leaping over slides and other obstacles as they played tag with the hulking man, boys laughing hysterically, mother looking on from the park bench. A small sign had been posted at the park. It labeled the playground officially closed because of Covid-19. The next day barricades were put into place, intending to more seriously keep people off the playground.

For a moment, I thought about confronting the miserable old man, with a power play that is perhaps the only remaining thing worse than corona lockdown violation: he was photographing children.

You could see the old man raging on his face at the idea that a child would be playing in a closed playground during the corona hoax, as he snapped photos, his musculature growing more tense with each movement.

Perhaps this rat-faced man reads his corona fear porn each morning at the New York Times, Slate, Wired, or some other publication that can do no better than party line for even 1-in-1000 articles. Sometimes thought slips through.

Perhaps he was the one who complained so mightily that the barricades went up around a children’s playground the next morning.

As fun as he might be to dislike, that miserable man is not the great enemy. That miserable editor at the Times or MIT Tech Review or every other boot licking establishment rag is not the great enemy.

Author Alan Moore wrote in the early 1980s:

“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power.

Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn’t there?

Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression.

And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen?

Who’s to blame?

Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it.

I know you were afraid.

Who wouldn’t be?

War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense.”

The enemy is inside. [emphasis by Sam] The enemy is he who does not defend his own boundaries. He is an enemy to himself.

At the park one morning, long after the corona barricades went up, long after the social distancing placards became the norm everywhere you turned, after the frightening national face mask advisory went into effect, I saw a simple act of courage.

It was 8 a.m., an hour before the newly installed corona park rangers got out of bed to begin their rounds of the playgrounds, when I saw a mother doing what was once the most natural thing possible: taking her son to the playground.

It was natural before it was deemed both illegal and immoral.

A young family, in an urban area, with a small apartment. What else are you supposed to do on day 20 of the lockdown? You could cower at home. You could let the kids run on the narrow, hypodermic needle-filled, excrement-filled, and broken bottle-filled left coast sidewalks. You could also just go to the park.

In our era, the cautious feminine reigns supreme. Prevention of chance, socializing of risk, elimination of hazard, “responsible regulation,” and loss mitigation are all the rage. To advocate otherwise in life, and especially as a parent, is to risk being labeled negligent. The once strangely antiseptic, tabloid-worthy notion of “the boy in the bubble” has become the American ideal for how childhood should look. Occasionally, a careless oaf of a father is allowed to roughhouse. But not the mother. And certainly not outside during corona madness in West Coast lockdown land.

But there she was.

Here was a mother bucking that, taking her son to the playground. A profile in courage, in the midst of corona.

And before long, the father followed with their dog, who was also happy to get out.

They ran about the morning park, availing themselves of the beautiful playground that everyone else was too gullible and cowardly to visit. Dozens of parents an hour would pass through that park just a few weeks earlier.

This was courage in a city of cowering people, going through every which means of contortion in order to comply: the face masks that probably don’t work, the social distancing that probably doesn’t work, the quarantines which almost certainly don’t work, the shameful “essential workers only” mandate which evokes this.

Even the USSR had no massive peacetime lockdown of hundreds of millions like this. The atheist communists couldn’t manage to close churches like America has done this spring. Not even the most ardent Marxist-Leninists seemed able to bring an economy to a halt like what has happened in America: destroying lives and livelihoods along the way. And to help us feel not utter derision, but to instead feel thankful for it all, billions of dollars have been spent these several months on corona fear propaganda, engineered by the masterful psychologists that we call the free press.

In the midst of that, a mother and a father courageously determined they would reject that distraction and instead live their lives.

Courageously they stepped out to go to the park. Courageously they stepped out of the house to live their lives.

And I want to thank them.

Because courage is contagious.
 
What exactly are you hearing that is "shambolic".
From my distant perspective I see no apparent critically cohesive action at a national level. If you have states fending for themselves to the point of becoming competitive for scarce resources and a federal government that says it has no primary role in crafting a coordinated response, while bidding against states for PPE I'd call that shambolic. Do you think I am being overly harsh? I'd rip into my government if it was doing the same thing.

In addition I have listened to/watched your POTUS engaging in what I would consider to be manipulative and divisive conduct, including insinuating that states that critics him are less likely to receive federal aid. Kushner, on behalf of the WH, apparently, described stockpiled PPEs as "our" as if to suggest that there is a distinction between federal and state interests.

Do you think I have misinterpreted your media's reports?
 
I live in Ohio. Our Governor and top health officials were one of the earliest state groups to act. We have, effectively, been in the same structure you articulated in Oz. New York was a bit delayed in its action, but being a global center of commerce packed as densely with people as any city on earth, it seemed likely to struggle with any easily transmittable disease.

Ohio isn't necessarily representative of the entire U.S. but I would call the U.S. response shambolic by any objective measure.
Sydney is our New York {sorry Melbourne]. I think I can say with absolute confidence that if Sydney was facing what New York is, our federal government would be absolutely on top responding. This would not just be politically motivated. It would be a genuine expression of national commitment.
 
Do you think I have misinterpreted your media's reports?
No, I don't. But I understand your question was for Jim.

But I believe the question should be... is it intelligent to "buy" into the false reporting, exaggerated reporting, the spun reporting because on the rarest of occasions, you can stumble upon a tidbit of truth stated somewhere in the news media?
 
Sydney is our New York {sorry Melbourne]. I think I can say with absolute confidence that if Sydney was facing what New York is, our federal government would be absolutely on top responding. This would not just be politically motivated. It would be a genuine expression of national commitment.
Is Australia a federal (representative republic)?
 
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This might not be the right time to bring this up... but (I'll do it anyway). It SEEMS that people who are over 50 need to get a HEP C test. They found that age group that got those "line em up" vaccines. Yeah, it carried HEP C. It is now showing up.

"A 2016 study by The Lancet points to unsafe medical procedures of the time rather than drug use as the primary reason behind hepatitis C transmission in baby boomers. Researchers behind the study found that: the disease spread before 1965. the highest infection rates happened during the 1940s and 1960s. "
I disagree. We need to have an adult conversation about vaccines. I do not think there is any serious doubt about their value, given our population densities. But were have to confess the risks and admit the harm done.

We do not send our children to war on the promise they will all return unharmed. While viruses are not evil their nature is to colonise available territory. That means they will want to live in us if we become available to them. We have. They will kill those who cannot endure them. We do not hav immune systems calibrated to accommodate a vaccine without being injured or killed. We re not in a war as such, but we are in an evolutionary struggle. In the callous language if the Vietnam war, there will be collateral damage.

Our solution has been to create vaccines that have a failure rate acceptable to law makers. The problem, as I see it, is that this has never been negotiated with the community. The reality is that sacrifice is necessary, but those who fall in service of herd immunity are not honoured -and that is a dreadful failing.
 
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