Coronavirus Pandemic

Trump must read Skeptiko (and my posts!)

FINALLY: Trump Lays Out Three-Phase Plan To Reopen Economy

President Donald Trump on Thursday laid out a three-phase road map to reopening the U.S. economy, closed for weeks after a virus from China invaded America.

In a phone call with governors, Trump set out an approach to restore regular activity, at first in places with few COVID-19 cases and later, as the virus fades, to the rest of the nation.

“We can begin the next front in our war, which we are calling ‘Opening Up America Again,'” Trump said during a press briefing at the White House. “To preserve the health of Americans, we must preserve the health of our economy.”

To the governors, Trump said: “You’re going to call your own shots,” according to an audio recording obtained by The Associated Press. “We’re going to be standing alongside of you.”

“In phase one, for instance, the plan recommends strict social distancing for all people in public. Gatherings larger than 10 people are to be avoided and nonessential travel is discouraged,” the AP reported.
In phase two, people are encouraged to maximize social distancing where possible and limit gatherings to no more than 50 people unless precautionary measures are taken. Travel could resume.
Phase three envisions a return to normalcy for most Americans, with a focus on identification and isolation of any new infections.​
“We have a very large number of states that want to get going and they’re in very good shape,” Trump said in the phone call. “That’s good with us, frankly.”

“The ‘Opening Up America Again’ plan was signed off on by the president’s medical advisors, Dr. Deborah Birx, Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Robert Redfield, and will be a “data-driven” approach with governors taking the helm in deciding, down to a county-level, how they will reopen their states, the White House said,” Fox News reported.

“We are not opening all at once, but one careful step at a time,” Trump said, noting that the new guidelines were “based on hard verifiable data.”

“Some states will be able to open up sooner than others,” he said.

“This is a gradual process,” Trump said. “Throughout the process, citizens will still be called on to use all the weapons in this war.”

The new plan came on the same day that the federal government said another 5.2 million Americans applied for unemployment benefits last week, bringing the four-week total to nearly 22 million out of a work force of 159 million — about 1 in 7 workers.
 
Again, your bias comes SHINING through. You readily question the supposed mainstream, expert advice on COVID-19 but take at face value some generic sources (if sources at all?) regarding the "wrecking of economies with consequences we can only guess at". Where's your evidence for the latter? Are there dissenting opinions from experts with differing views?

No David, you come at this thing with a preconceived notion. The only evidence I see you embrace is evidence that supports your distrust of the science and government. Again, but we'll accept economists at face value? Many economists think the potential for a rapid recovery is quite likely depending on certain factors. Point here is that the economic despair story has not yet been written.

Its just as easy to brush off those suffering the most from the economic distress as being predisposed for such suffering. Akin to the co-morbidities and related mantra of "its older people most affected who were going to die soon anyway".

The hypocrisy is almost comical were it not so serious as Michael as pointed out.


Sure. Look for any of the references to the evil Bill Gates and his dastardly plan for world domination through vaccines.


Clearly David, you are not seeing the tone of this thread through the same lens as some of us. (Part of what makes you a bit of an enigma as a moderator is your DEEPLY held opinions on so many topics. The Trump thread is an elementary example as you'd never have suffered through that nonsense were it a "Hillary Consciousness" thread.)

I can see it quite clearly. Michael's posts indicate he sees it. And its not just here, its mainstream and its concerning.
....it worries me that Silence made generalized accusations and used "us" instead of "I".
 
Facebook 'Fact Checker' Worked At Wuhan Biolab; Ruled Out Virus-Leak While 'Debunking' Articles
A Facebook fact checker who has 'debunked' articles suggesting that COVID-19 may have leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) has a giant conflict of interest; she worked at the institute - which is now suspected of accidentally leaking the hyper-virulent virus which has killed over 130,000 people and cast the global economy into chaos.

"I have worked in this exact laboratory at various times for the past 2 years. I can personally attest to the strict control and containment measures implemented while working there," Anderson writes in one such 'debunking' of a New York Post article that claims "China [is having] a problem keeping dangerous pathogens in test tubes where they belong" while Science Feedback cast doubt on the Post's claim that "evidence points to SARS-CoV-2 research being carried out at the Wuhan Institute of Virology."

And while Anderson was busy covering for her corona-labmates with Facebook debunkings implicating the WIV, she went on national television to explain that the virus could have only come from outside the lab.

A quick search of Anderson's publications reveals no fewer than nine collaborations with Dr. Peng Zhou - a Wuhan scientist experimenting on bat coronavirus (the mention of whom may result in a Twitter ban).

Any suggestion to the contrary is now deemed 'False Information' by Facebook, thanks to the highly conflicted Danielle Anderson and crew over at Science Feedback.

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/co...orked-wuhan-biolab-ruled-out-virus-leak-while
 
Guess what's starting to get "batted around?"

That "the researcher" (Patient ZERO) didn't "accidentally" get the virus.

For example - see 12 Monkeys

consider - Germanwings Flight 9525

what's also be floated is the back channel chatter that suggests it may not have been only a mass murder-suicide...

but that it was a suicide mission based on idealogically driven geo-political goals.

and this leads to the possibility of an MK Ultra, Sirhan Sirhan triggered event

...all the above, admittedly theoretical. Though the timing is interesting as China is a week or so away from the first "Trade Deal" deadline.

and the fact that I posted all the above suggests it may be "I" who is the "agent" of an MK Ultra program.
I don't think I find any of those ideas plausible. For example, a pilot was able to commit this crime by locking his cabin door and deliberately setting the controls to crash the plane - which is a lot more certain than exposing himself to COVID-19, which might have simply given him a sore throat for a few days unless he was old and with 'co-morbidities' (though admittedly he could have taken a much larger dose of virus than the typical exposure).

My feeling is that the world could do without research of this kind being conducted. It doesn't seem to have contributed anything useful to this crisis, and quite possibly created the whole thing!


David
 
I don't think I find any of those ideas plausible. For example, a pilot was able to commit this crime by locking his cabin door and deliberately setting the controls to crash the plane - which is a lot more certain than exposing himself to COVID-19, which might have simply given him a sore throat for a few days unless he was old and with 'co-morbidities' (though admittedly he could have taken a much larger dose of virus than the typical exposure).

My feeling is that the world could do without research of this kind being conducted. It doesn't seem to have contributed anything useful to this crisis, and quite possibly created the whole thing!

David

The very next post I made, was meant to "explain" the context of my post as an example of what Michael Patterson was complaining about -

ok... maybe I can be given a pass as I am now on Day 30 of lock down and going a bit "stir-crazy" here.

I wrote all that in an "inspired moment" as an example of "wild imagination." In fact, That you took it semi-seriously... and I apologize for this - is exactly the point Michael was making (I just left out aliens). [note to Michael: The forum has an ignore feature and it works well].

I was awaiting the first reply and hoped it would be much as you wrote, David. Thankfully, I got my wish. And now I will explain.

If the news reports that have gone mainstream and viral are true (and understand China is in denial as well as their sycophants in a world wide media) then what is most obviously clear is that there is ONE and ONLY ONE responsible party with regards to what "you choose to believe" and that is YOU.

BUT, equally important, is that if we are not able to access information freely, and this includes anyone posting anything they wish to post anywhere on the information super-highway, then you end up with what Facebook chose to do yesterday (or shortly before) and that is to force feed information involving COVID-19 to all Facebook readers/participants that has been vetted by....

drum roll, please...

The World Health Organization.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8221607/What-said-coronavirus-pandemic-unfolded.html

The same World Health Organization that took advantage of the vulnerable who "trusted them" with regards to a.) the danger of the virus and b.) the transmission risks. This organization is massively corrupt and their words as actions have directly led to thousands and thousands of deaths and/or lives (families/friends of the dead and the permanently damaged) of millions of people and yet, Facebook puts them in charge of what all their readers/participants will be told to believe regarding COVID-19 as well as why all this happened.

Now you understand why I made the crazy post - to make the very points that -

a.) It is up to YOU, the individual to believe or not whatever you wish to believe, whether you acquire the information from an over-active imagination, from what you read or hear on the internet, TV or any other medium, what you hear from people, your friends, etc...

And b.) that your access to information NOT BE RESTRICTED...

And c.) that our abilities to present whatever information we wish on all available mediums without filtering or censorship is paramount!

Again - ending back up at the main point - it is your sole responsibility what you choose to believe.
 
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One more point - Ongoing right now on this very forum has been a lengthy, months long discussion regarding "good and evil." The discussions are based on a series of Skeptikos conducted by the creator of Skeptiko, Alex Tsakiris. This exploration has probed some of the darkest possibilities held as possible by so many who consider themselves "members" of the so called "alternative community." What I am specifically pointing to fits within the following paradigm - a Satanic Cabal of many of the world's "elite" have created and developed a network that produces a constant supply of humans, mostly children, perhaps mostly females for usage as victims or participants in what is known as Satanic Ritual Abuse and Satanic Ritual Sacrifice."

I, personally, would not feel comfortable in telling another human being (or any being for that matter) that the "theory" that this paradigm exists is true or not. Personally, I do not want it to be true. But also, I do not believe I have the right to tell anyone else that they should view it as plausible or not. But also, I do believe Alex has the right to explore the possibility it is true and I believe Alex has the right to share his exploration. Additionally, I choose to remain open minded that there may be some truth to this, whether it is formally organized or that pockets of humanity here and there choose to pick up the practice for whatever reason(s) including their desire to believe in (and perhaps worship) "Satan."

I am grateful he explores this possibility.

I am grateful he is in the midst of exploring "good and evil" especially as that may exist beyond our five sense reality.
 
And c.) that our abilities to present whatever information we wish on all available mediums without filtering or censorship is paramount!
Yes indeed, the idea of censoring the internet or Facebook or whatever is deeply pernicious. I mean, everyone can think of information they would like to see censored, either because they think it is wrong, or because they think it is true but somehow 'immoral' or whatever, but everyone's list is different.

The reason the internet is so useful, is because it contains what people put there - because it is still more or less free.

Perhaps my only exceptions would be:
1) Notes for terrorists.

2) Child porn or non-consensual porn (rape scenes).

3) Information put online for blackmail purposes.

The very idea that people should censor the internet for particular political views should be completely off limits. After realising just how much standard medical advice can be wrong, I would also hate to see non-standard medical advice censored.

David
 
YES, and again, David, I apologize I decided to make a post on the Skeptiko forum which was void of the important "sarcasm" emoji... but I truly wanted to make the point I made which I needed someone "to bite" to make my point.

And incredibly... you just made the next point which is exposes the Number 1 Dilemma that faces human dominated life in the five sense reality. Where do "we" draw the line with regards to what we produce that manifests in the five sense reality that "we" (collectively agree) is unacceptable. And I don't use this word to minimize the horror of something like a "smut film" for example, which I personally find totally repulsive. And yet, as depicted in the movie, '8mm,' when an individual reaches a certain point in their life journey they have gained the power and capacity to pull off an unthinkable specific crime (murder of an innocent unknown) just because they can and just because they are so bored, they want to. And yet also... there are websites on the internet that "dramatically represent" this exact same scenario, including adding sex into the mix. And any child could stumble on these websites and "lie" they are age 18 or older. And this is allowed (at least here in the US).

Where's that magic line? How many "borderline things" are there which do not generate a significant dominant consensus one way or another?

This is the imperfect job of "society" to decided what is acceptable or not, to make the unacceptable "illegal," to decide to what degree "punishment" will be imposed and upon who... and what are the standards of proof and who will be society's representatives to make such laws and who will be placed in positions of authority to carry out "justice."

Impossible to do perfectly... not because "perfect" can't be achieved, but because no one can agree as to what that "perfect" should be.

And this is the challenge of the five sense world and this is why some "Gnostics" (like purportedly, the Cathars for example) can look upon our five sense world as this very evil which reminds me of my goal to get through Skeptiko #446 by the end of this coming weekend (Miguel Conner).
 
You are misreading me. Pointing out dissenting views is fine so long as there is good purpose to doing so. At present experts are dissenting in what seems to be an atmosphere of general collective desire for truth. Generally speaking a lay audience will not grasp the finer points of argument, so it is hard to figure out the value of some arguments.

I draw a distinction between conversations between people who know enough about a theme to have what amounts to an 'inside sports' discussion and this seeking to build conspiracy theories. One conversation has limited public value and the other has none.

What I am reacting to is the mass of ill-informed trolling nonsense that pushes conspiracy theories and negative destructive commentary that further distrust and fear. When polls show 1/3 of American respondents believe the virus was manufactured there is a real problem of destructive misinformation.

I have no issue at all with conversations that are genuinely about trying to understand what is going on. This is a serious crisis and not time to go blurting garbage. Its not time for paranoid ranting and talking up dissent against the best efforts to contain the spread of the virus because of idiotic conspiracy theories.

If I am being attacked by a dog I don't to be distracted into a debate about the breed of the dog, who owns it or its motive for attacking me. To the extent that those questions have any merit they can wait until I can get the dog to stop trying to eat me.

If the virus was engineered by rogue CIA scientists funded by George Soros and malevolent ETs and shipped to China and let loose as part of plot to depopulate the planet it would not matter a damn right now. The next stupid claim will be that a cabal of archons and the deep state already have a vaccine - just wait. None of this helps deal with what is happening and only makes it worse. There are times when it is okay to be a perverse destructive dick -and now is not that time.

You may think that it is harmless to peddle stupid conspiratorial crap, but people who believe this garbage may lose their jobs, go home, get drunk or stoned and then angry and then beat up their partners and children. Calls to domestic violence lines here have increased massively. Kids who had some safe time going to school are now home with violent and abusive adults. Psychological distress is increasing massively. A lot of people are deep in shit and filling them with fear and anger just makes things worse.

We all have to stop being assholes and be caring and compassionate. I have zero tolerance for pointless harmful crap. In my job I see how much damage it does.

Again, your bias comes SHINING through. You readily question the supposed mainstream, expert advice on COVID-19 but take at face value some generic sources (if sources at all?) regarding the "wrecking of economies with consequences we can only guess at". Where's your evidence for the latter? Are there dissenting opinions from experts with differing views?

No David, you come at this thing with a preconceived notion. The only evidence I see you embrace is evidence that supports your distrust of the science and government. Again, but we'll accept economists at face value? Many economists think the potential for a rapid recovery is quite likely depending on certain factors. Point here is that the economic despair story has not yet been written.

Its just as easy to brush off those suffering the most from the economic distress as being predisposed for such suffering. Akin to the co-morbidities and related mantra of "its older people most affected who were going to die soon anyway".

The hypocrisy is almost comical were it not so serious as Michael as pointed out.


Sure. Look for any of the references to the evil Bill Gates and his dastardly plan for world domination through vaccines.


Clearly David, you are not seeing the tone of this thread through the same lens as some of us. (Part of what makes you a bit of an enigma as a moderator is your DEEPLY held opinions on so many topics. The Trump thread is an elementary example as you'd never have suffered through that nonsense were it a "Hillary Consciousness" thread.)

I can see it quite clearly. Michael's posts indicate he sees it. And its not just here, its mainstream and its concerning.

93674985_10162830349525538_2681694665278750720_n.jpg
 
Yes indeed, the idea of censoring the internet or Facebook or whatever is deeply pernicious. I mean, everyone can think of information they would like to see censored, either because they think it is wrong, or because they think it is true but somehow 'immoral' or whatever, but everyone's list is different.

The reason the internet is so useful, is because it contains what people put there - because it is still more or less free.

Perhaps my only exceptions would be:
1) Notes for terrorists.

2) Child porn or non-consensual porn (rape scenes).

3) Information put online for blackmail purposes.

The very idea that people should censor the internet for particular political views should be completely off limits. After realising just how much standard medical advice can be wrong, I would also hate to see non-standard medical advice censored.

David

YES, and again, David, I apologize I decided to make a post on the Skeptiko forum which was void of the important "sarcasm" emoji... but I truly wanted to make the point I made which I needed someone "to bite" to make my point.

And incredibly... you just made the next point which is exposes the Number 1 Dilemma that faces human dominated life in the five sense reality. Where do "we" draw the line with regards to what we produce that manifests in the five sense reality that "we" (collectively agree) is unacceptable. And I don't use this word to minimize the horror of something like a "smut film" for example, which I personally find totally repulsive. And yet, as depicted in the movie, '8mm,' when an individual reaches a certain point in their life journey they have gained the power and capacity to pull off an unthinkable specific crime (murder of an innocent unknown) just because they can and just because they are so bored, they want to. And yet also... there are websites on the internet that "dramatically represent" this exact same scenario, including adding sex into the mix. And any child could stumble on these websites and "lie" they are age 18 or older. And this is allowed (at least here in the US).

Where's that magic line? How many "borderline things" are there which do not generate a significant dominant consensus one way or another?

This is the imperfect job of "society" to decided what is acceptable or not, to make the unacceptable "illegal," to decide to what degree "punishment" will be imposed and upon who... and what are the standards of proof and who will be society's representatives to make such laws and who will be placed in positions of authority to carry out "justice."

Impossible to do perfectly... not because "perfect" can't be achieved, but because no one can agree as to what that "perfect" should be.

And this is the challenge of the five sense world and this is why some "Gnostics" (like purportedly, the Cathars for example) can look upon our five sense world as this very evil which reminds me of my goal to get through Skeptiko #446 by the end of this coming weekend (Miguel Conner).

quote-make-no-laws-whatever-concerning-speech-and-speech-will-be-free-so-soon-as-you-make-voltairine-de-cleyre-58-60-33.jpg
 
Two memes and they both fall far short of profound in the context of this discussion.

Truth Vortex? If your meme substituted the word "theory" for "truth" it would be almost nonsensical huh? That's all that's being tossed about in here, from all sides. Just theories. Its why they aren't called conspiracy truths.

And I love the ever popular hiding behind freedom of speech. These very forums do not allow freedom of speech, far from it. That's an aside however. When folks conjure the freedom of speech card its often to abdicate themselves of responsibility for what they say. Words matter and just because you are free to say something doesn't make it moral or right. That's pretty elementary actually. Carefully read Michael's posts and you'll see that's his point.
 
Two memes and they both fall far short of profound in the context of this discussion.

Truth Vortex? If your meme substituted the word "theory" for "truth" it would be almost nonsensical huh? That's all that's being tossed about in here, from all sides. Just theories. Its why they aren't called conspiracy truths.

And I love the ever popular hiding behind freedom of speech. These very forums do not allow freedom of speech, far from it. That's an aside however. When folks conjure the freedom of speech card its often to abdicate themselves of responsibility for what they say. Words matter and just because you are free to say something doesn't make it moral or right. That's pretty elementary actually. Carefully read Michael's posts and you'll see that's his point.
You live in a very simple world that maybe I thought I lived in once - a world where government could request the best academic advice on a non-political problem, and all those suitably qualified would club together to put forward their best possible spokesperson. A world where academics always ignore their own self interests and most certainly never consider their grants from assorted commercial concerns. A world where no academic would dream of stifling another academics freedom of speech - least of all because it questions his own opinion.

I guess it must be oddly comforting to live in that world.

David
 
The World Health Organization.
Ah the WHO! That is the organisation that wanted to make a bogus case that red meat causes cancer, so they collected a bunch of really, really crappy studies to do that - including this one:

https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/full-article/meat-and-cancer

This study was so full of faults that it is hard to know where to start, but it began by taking some rats and injecting them all - test mice and control mice - with a carcinogenic chemical before feeding one lot meat. None of them got cancer, but this was still considered to be powerful evidence that we should all give up meat!

David
 
Ah the WHO! That is the organisation that wanted to make a bogus case that red meat causes cancer, so they collected a bunch of really, really crappy studies to do that - including this one:

https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/full-article/meat-and-cancer

This study was so full of faults that it is hard to know where to start, but it began by taking some rats and injecting them all - test mice and control mice - with a carcinogenic chemical before feeding one lot meat. None of them got cancer, but this was still considered to be powerful evidence that we should all give up meat!

David

The Who is a globalist/socialist organization. They will carry China's water and do what they can to damage the US.

IMO, this virus is a deliberate operation by the Chinese government to weaken America and other western countries - weaken, not destroy. Weaken the economic power and weaken the little remaining appreciation for freedom and independence. The media are assisting the Chinese in this because the media are, essentially and predominantly, socialists and control freaks. It tends to attract that type, the execs are in bed with intelligence agencies and those that don't tow the line are let go. The intelligence agencies have gone globalist because that is what big business wants and the CIA has long been the lacky of big business (aka America's interests); excepting the DIA.

If the media wasn't hyping this thing, no one would know it was happening. If they noticed at all, they'd just think it's a bad flu season (like 2017/2018) and that some old people succumbed to the flu like they always do. All of the statistics and context data (like normal pneumonia death rates) bear out my position. If the media wasn't hyping, the politicians wouldn't be forced to respond. And the politicians would not be able to add their own devious machinations to the Charlie Foxtrot.

Also, this virus was, IMO, bioengineered quite well. It kills the old and infirm. The Chicoms see this as a plus because they could sacrifice some of their own. A few thousand dead non-productive people to a achieve an objective is nothing for the Chinese. They place no value on the individual. It's all about the collective and 5,10, 20 year plans. The virus won't wipe out the US. The Chicoms need the US. However, it will, with the help of the media, cause a panic that will, in turn, cause an economic damage that will take years to remediate. It also serves as a good warning shot, i.e. "Look what we can and will do. This time we are only killing the old and infirm, but next time it might the young and productive. Think before you want to rearrange trade deals, confront us over Taiwan" etc, etc
 
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