Coronavirus Pandemic

You live in a very simple world that maybe I thought I lived in once - a world where government could request the best academic advice on a non-political problem, and all those suitably qualified would club together to put forward their best possible spokesperson. A world where academics always ignore their own self interests and most certainly never consider their grants from assorted commercial concerns. A world where no academic would dream of stifling another academics freedom of speech - least of all because it questions his own opinion.

I guess it must be oddly comforting to live in that world.

David
David, please point me to the post where I suggested any of the things you wrote?

The reality is that you shown yourself to take an a priori position for anything "alternative" and against anything "official" or "conventional". I can understand this bias as official and institutional narratives have been filled with deception all too often. It makes even the most ardent supporter somewhat skeptical. That said, your bias leaves no middle ground. You identify posters and narratives as either pro alternative or pro conventional. Perhaps in some cases there is no villain. Perhaps in some cases human beings just prove to be fallible.
 
IMO, this virus is a deliberate operation by the Chinese government to weaken America and other western countries - weaken, not destroy.
I really doubt this. Without testing COVID-19 on a significant number of people, they wouldn't know what exactly it would do, so I think this move would be a wild stab in the dark - from which I am pretty sure China will suffer enormously because everyone has become aware of the fact that out-sourcing can be a very mixed blessing, and it is best to keep more production capabilities in our various countries.

David
 
If the media wasn't hyping this thing, no one would know it was happening. If they noticed at all, they'd just think it's a bad flu season (like 2017/2018) and that some old people succumbed to the flu like they always do. All of the statistics and context data (like normal pneumonia death rates) bear out my position.
I certainly agree with that, and I think it is horrible that young, fit, well people should be locked indoors to try to keep old, unfit, ill people alive a tiny bit longer.

David
 
I really doubt this. Without testing COVID-19 on a significant number of people, they wouldn't know what exactly it would do, so I think this move would be a wild stab in the dark - from which I am pretty sure China will suffer enormously because everyone has become aware of the fact that out-sourcing can be a very mixed blessing, and it is best to keep more production capabilities in our various countries.

David
Who says they didn't test it on "dissidents"?

To say that they (China) suffered too is a great cover story. Like I said, sacrificing some of their own, even many, means nothing to them. It's just a means to an end.

Once Trump is gone, outsourcing will return in force. For that matter, Trump can't control congress. Also, the Chinese would just threaten to unleash another virus (or whatever else they have up their sleeve)
 
Would anyone like to take up James Corbett's challenge. Especially the couple of main streamers swallowing what ever the nightly news has been force feeding.

At what point for you is crossing the line? For me it is already crossed.

Do you support the measures taken, do you support the draconian ideas being floated around? So at what point will you become a hypocrite? I think that is the only question here. Be clear. There are lot's of things on the table. What is nonsense, what is acceptable and what is going too far?
How far do those heads extend into the sand?

I feel the worst is still yet to come, and it is not the virus.

 
I see the scenario you posted, Eric, as a plausible "theory." It may not be "theory" to those who may have better access to truthful information.

The only difference, right now, between what "the official government 'most likely true truth" as espoused by Senator Tom Cotton (for example) and what you said is "accidental" vs "intentional." When we consider CIA elements involved (based on the allegiance of "some" or "most" at the higher levels of that agency), along with the media "as you painted" (and as many of us agree... I know I agree) and the political "sellouts"... the picture looks pretty bleak for the few of us who lament what will be lost - the freedom of the human spirit.

This appears to be an act of desperation... if intentional... but even if it was an accident, the opportunity has been seized.

What a lovely world.

Yes, agree... the odds are we have not yet seen the worst.
 

Alex

Administrator
Again, your bias comes SHINING through. You readily question the supposed mainstream, expert advice on COVID-19 but take at face value some generic sources (if sources at all?) regarding the "wrecking of economies with consequences we can only guess at". Where's your evidence for the latter? Are there dissenting opinions from experts with differing views?

No David, you come at this thing with a preconceived notion. The only evidence I see you embrace is evidence that supports your distrust of the science and government. Again, but we'll accept economists at face value? Many economists think the potential for a rapid recovery is quite likely depending on certain factors. Point here is that the economic despair story has not yet been written.

Its just as easy to brush off those suffering the most from the economic distress as being predisposed for such suffering. Akin to the co-morbidities and related mantra of "its older people most affected who were going to die soon anyway".

The hypocrisy is almost comical were it not so serious as Michael as pointed out.


Sure. Look for any of the references to the evil Bill Gates and his dastardly plan for world domination through vaccines.


Clearly David, you are not seeing the tone of this thread through the same lens as some of us. (Part of what makes you a bit of an enigma as a moderator is your DEEPLY held opinions on so many topics. The Trump thread is an elementary example as you'd never have suffered through that nonsense were it a "Hillary Consciousness" thread.)

I can see it quite clearly. Michael's posts indicate he sees it. And its not just here, its mainstream and its concerning.
this stuff is getting old. David is moderating and posting... no problem doing both.

If you have any specific probs with his moderation email me directly. don't post comments about moderation on the open forum.
 
I see the scenario you posted, Eric, as a plausible "theory." It may not be "theory" to those who may have better access to truthful information.

The only difference, right now, between what "the official government 'most likely true truth" as espoused by Senator Tom Cotton (for example) and what you said is "accidental" vs "intentional." When we consider CIA elements involved (based on the allegiance of "some" or "most" at the higher levels of that agency), along with the media "as you painted" (and as many of us agree... I know I agree) and the political "sellouts"... the picture looks pretty bleak for the few of us who lament what will be lost - the freedom of the human spirit.

This appears to be an act of desperation... if intentional... but even if it was an accident, the opportunity has been seized.

What a lovely world.

Yes, agree... the odds are we have not yet seen the worst.

Sam,
Think about this...there are thousands of wet markets in Asia. The only one that was a source for the virus just happens to be down the street from a level 4 bio-lab. That's quite a coincidence!

Once the virus hit, the Chinese locked the city down for travel internal to China, but they allowed Wuhan residents to travel abroad. What is that?
 
Sam,
Think about this...there are thousands of wet markets in Asia. The only one that was a source for the virus just happens to be down the street from a level 4 bio-lab. That's quite a coincidence!

Once the virus hit, the Chinese locked the city down for travel internal to China, but they allowed Wuhan residents to travel abroad. What is that?
I best not post more... about this
 
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I certainly agree with that, and I think it is horrible that young, fit, well people should be locked indoors to try to keep old, unfit, ill people alive a tiny bit longer.
The data coming in seems to show that up to 50% of deaths are taking place in care homes. Perhaps a better strategy would be to take extraordinary measures to protect care home residents, preserving their health and dignity, while the rest of us go about building up herd immunity and thus decreasing the risk as quickly as possible to the elderly.

I've heard that some care homes in the UK are finding that doctors and ambulances are refusing call outs to residents if they are showing potential symptoms of the virus.

And then there are awful stories like this:

ANDOVER, New Jersey (WABC) -- Andover Rehabilitation in Sussex County has suffered 68 recent deaths, nearly half of them confirmed COVID-19 cases according to county health officials.

According to Sussex Co. Dept. of Health, 68 residents have died since the beginning of the year and 33 deaths are due to coronavirus. The cause of deaths for the others is unknown.
Family of loved ones are calling for Elizabeth Nursing and Rehab Center to be shut down after 26 people died in recent weeks, at least 12 confirmed to be from COVID 19.
Where are all these non-virus deaths coming from? Are the tests giving lots of false negatives? Is the lock-down killing people? Is their something else, another infection, at play?

Tragic.

The reality is that you shown yourself to take an a priori position for anything "alternative" and against anything "official" or "conventional".
I think you're being unfair here. I probably disagree with Mr. Bailey on most things political, but I don't find him to be programmatically anti-mainstream or consensus.
 
Farewell folks. Now Skeptiko has become a platform for stupid and dangerous conspiracy theories I am off to find a more sensible community. To those of you enduring Covid 19 in communities ravaged by assign politics and white-anted by shithead conspiracy my heart goes out to you and I hope you survive.
 
Testing for the antibodies would be a much more definitive way of testing. Even Kerry Mullis the inventor of PCR stated that it cannot detect free infectious viruses at all. It can detect proteins that are assumed to be the product of the virus but can't detect the Virus itself. Hence the false positives, If you have had a flu shot in recent years these fragments may get detected by PCR. Or some fragment assumed to the product of the virus may match another viral interaction external or endogenous.

This video highlights the problem with the dogmatic germ theory which is overly simplistic. Germ theory does not address the genetic make up of the person or the immune response. The immune system is the denominator in the germ theory equation but it cannot be measured by anyone on the planet!

It is not the virus that causes the disease it is the terrain, the interaction with persons biochemistry. This is why all these people had the antibodies but never had any symptoms. The germ theory is incomplete it paints the picture of organisms as sitting ducks just waiting to be infected whenever a virus or bacteria is encountered. Yet we are full of viruses both endogenous and environmental. Just because you are exposed does not immediately mean you will become sick. So why is it that? That is where the germ theory fails. Yet all of these measures we face are based on this dogma.

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissues rather than being the cause of disease." - Rudolph Virchow. The often cited father of modern pathology.

Is like looking at a carcass on the side of the road that is covered in maggots and then claiming the maggots killed that animal.

Where are all the medical professionals encouraging the strengthening of the immune system, getting sunlight, exercise and eating healthy? There are some but their voices are drowned out amidst fear peddling.

It is no wonder that Iatrogenic death is one of the leading causes of death in a country where medical science should be cutting edge, yet half of the population suffer chronic illness.
 
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But equally, the West permitted these planes to come! For a while the obsession with trade and open borders won out. There still are a few planes landing here in the UK.

David
Yes. And even after we were put on house arrest in the US, people were still flying into the US from China under "chain immigration" loopholes.

As I keep trying to tell you guys, ideology wins out over reason every time. You want to imagine that your govt and its agencies are rational planners and actors. They aren't. They are ideologues, for the most part. And their masters are greedy.

Look at Michael Patterson. He has stomped off this forum because his ideology won't permit him to consider Chinese complicity. He works in the Australian govt. As soon as you accept a little socialism you have opened the door for a lot of socialism and the Chinese will walk through that open door.

Greed and ideology are causing western govts to play nice with China. The Chinese are great chess players. They have had agents studying the West for years and at this point they know what buttons to push and how hard. They have arranged pieces on the board and can put us in check whenever they want to. They are showing us that.
 
As soon as you accept a little socialism you have opened the door...
Yup it’s all a Trotskyite, (discerningly PC) Bolshevik, Cultural Marxist, Satanic, Paedophile, Cannibalistic, and Thoroughly Unpleasant Plot that is total opposed to the Heavenly Christian path of Robust Capitalism! As was foretold in the Book of Albert.
 
Yes. And even after we were put on house arrest in the US, people were still flying into the US from China under "chain immigration" loopholes.

As I keep trying to tell you guys, ideology wins out over reason every time. You want to imagine that your govt and its agencies are rational planners and actors. They aren't. They are ideologues, for the most part. And their masters are greedy.

Look at Michael Patterson. He has stomped off this forum because his ideology won't permit him to consider Chinese complicity. He works in the Australian govt. As soon as you accept a little socialism you have opened the door for a lot of socialism and the Chinese will walk through that open door.

Greed and ideology are causing western govts to play nice with China. The Chinese are great chess players. They have had agents studying the West for years and at this point they know what buttons to push and how hard. They have arranged pieces on the board and can put us in check whenever they want to. They are showing us that.
I agree, we have a big China problem in Australia as do many other countries but China is our biggest trade partner. They have been buying up infrastructure and real estate for years. Buying our goods and selling them marked up in the homeland. They buy our water when we are in drought leaving farmers suffering. Yet it is our greedy corrupt politicians that are complicit and filling their pockets. Thankfully there are some who are now raising the issue of the China problem. There appears to me to be some backlash over all this.

If any good can come of this it will be an awakening to these underhanded tactics they employ. As well as the shaken credibility of the WHO.

I think we are at a crossroads if people actual reject what may eventually come down the pipeline to stifle personal freedom we will strike a blow and will be empowered. If we are silent or have our heads in the sand (calling everything a conspiracy lol) we will consent by default and pave the way to technocratic tyranny. And I don't have the means to move to another planet. :)
 
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