Coronavirus Pandemic

Here, in Spain, the constitutional rights have been effectively abolished. We are a huge GULAG with 41 million inmates. We only can go to a supermarket or to walk a dog. The cops are on the power trip, treating everybody with horrible rudeness. You open your mouth to protest, get a huge fine. And you ALREADY can't work, so they actually are taking your last pennies. They even harass the people who walk their dogs, ordering them to go home, in spite of the Government's explicit permission to walk the dogs on their habitual pattern. Public parks are closed and police taped. I'm going to the Oriental Palace gardens (I live in the center of Madrid), to let my Irish setter off the leash for a bit. It's a hunting breed, they need to run, otherwise they get depressed. It's enough that we suffer, making animals suffer has no justification. People are extremely unfriendly with each other (the only people I see though, are other dog walkers). We used to say hi to other dog walkers, even if we didn't know them. Not anymore, people look at each other with suspicion and disdain. Like in Stalinist USSR, people report each other for supposed violations. They are already in totalitarian mode, these things make human worst come out.

I actually think it's the end of liberties. They have been abolished now, and, with the pretext of economic depression they are going to continue with extraordinary powers, they will institute ration cards system. This country will be like the URSS where I was born. All this brings in me a severe PTSD, invoking my horrible URSS memories. I have the US citizenship, too, but it looks like the US is heading in the same direction, besides, there are no planes out anymore. Should I call the Russian embassy and request my Russian birthright citizenship? They are not under totalitarian control at all; I talk to my friends from there every day. I'm 60, so, I don't care too much about this life, having no children and stuff, but I don't want to die in a communist dystopia. Shitty times, no light at the end of the tunnel. And if you do see the light at the end of the damn tunnel, you can bet it's the freaking cops waiting for you to fine or detain you.
 
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I like that remark - it would suggest that the President has begun to doubt this story.

I don't think it's a conspiracy but it could be that people are afraid of being blamed for hundreds of thousands or more deaths so they are being overly cautious.
I agree - this is not a conspiracy, but it may be yet another Science Lead Panic.

I do wonder if there is some non-materialist component of the immune system that cuts in and stops most epidemics before they spread too far. Think of Rupert Sheldrake's concept of an information rich field that works on a per-species basis. Is it conceivable that once some information about a new threat reaches that (non-materialist) field, the response is to pass on information to everyone's immune system?

David
 
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What data do you think the government should be collecting that they are failing to collect?
I think they should use a realistic assessment of someone's life expectancy just before they contracted COPID, and thus convert the statistic 'lives lost' into 'expected years lost'

In some circumstances (unconnected with this panic) the NHS goes a step further and uses Quality Adjusted Life Years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_year

The idea is that years spent in hospital and great pain are worth far less (dare one say they have negative worth) than a year in good health.

This would hopefully reveal the extent to which this is a disease of the nearly dead, and to what extent it is taking down reasonably well people.

David
 
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Here, in Spain, the constitutional rights have been effectively abolished. We are a huge GULAG with 41 million inmates. We only can go to a supermarket or to walk a dog. The cops are on the power trip, treating everybody with horrible rudeness. You open your mouth to protest, get a huge fine. And you ALREADY can't work, so they actually are taking your last pennies. They even harass the people who walk their dogs, ordering them to go home, in spite of the Government's explicit permission to walk the dogs on their habitual pattern. Public parks are closed and police taped. I'm going to the Oriental Palace gardens (I live in the center of Madrid), to let my Irish setter off the leash for a bit. It's a hunting breed, they need to run, otherwise they get depressed. It's enough that we suffer, making animals suffer has no justification. People are extremely unfriendly with each other (the only people I see though, are other dog walkers). We used to say hi to other dog walkers, even if we didn't know them. Not anymore, people look at each other with suspicion and disdain. Like in Stalinist USSR, people report each other for supposed violations. They are already in totalitarian mode, these things make human worst come out.

I actually think it's the end of liberties. They have been abolished now, and, with the pretext of economic depression they are going to continue with extraordinary powers, they will institute ration cards system. This country will be like the URSS where I was born. All this brings in me a severe PTSD, invoking my horrible URSS memories. I have the US citizenship, too, but it looks like the US is heading in the same direction, besides, there are no planes out anymore. Should I call the Russian embassy and request my Russian birthright citizenship? They are not under totalitarian control at all; I talk to my friends from there every day. I'm 60, so, I don't care too much about this life, having no children and stuff, but I don't want to die in a communist dystopia. Shitty times, no light at the end of the tunnel. And if you do see the light at the end of the damn tunnel, you can bet it's the freaking cops waiting for you to fine or detain you.
With the "help" of the recent AI technologies, the totalitarianism can become digital, and thus even more pervasive and horrific:

https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/03/mental-health-apps-ai-surveillance/

https://www.madinamerica.com/2019/08/brave-new-apps-the-arrival-of-surveillance-psychiatry/

https://www.madinamerica.com/2018/02/algorithms-running-asylum/

In fact, it may become an ultimate and absolute totalitarianism, one that is indefeatable till the end of times (or some global catastrophe that will raze the civilization). Our only hope is that the global civil war will start earlier.

And yes, in Russia the sitation with the individual and communal freedom is still much better than in Europe and America. This seems like a twisted joke, since Russia is openly authoritarian, autocratic state, while European and American states are apparently still pretending to be "liberal" and "democratic".

Are the appearances being given up right now, with the hidden rotten core of the modern state becoming visible (and, dare I say, painfully tangible - being manifested as a cop's truncheon or tazer...) for everyone?

P.S. Maybe the reason is the fact that Russia is still relatively less (post-)modernised society where some traces of tradition(alism) is still detectable. As far as freedom is concerned, this has both good and bad sides. Bad side is, tradition means authoritatianism. Good side is, it also mean no totalitarianism, since totalitarianism is a (post-)modern, non-traditional phenomenon (as much as liberalism and libertarianism, and - to some extent and in some forms - anarchism).
 
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And yes, in Russia the sitation with the individual and communal freedom is still much better than in Europe and America. This seems like a twisted joke, since Russia is openly authoritarian, autocratic state, while European and American states are apparently still pretending to be "liberal" and "democratic".

Are the appearances being given up right now, with the hidden rotten core of the modern state becoming visible (and, dare I say, painfully tangible - being manifested as a cop's truncheon or tazer...) for everyone?

P.S. Maybe the reason is the fact that Russia is still relatively less (post-)modernised society where some traces of tradition(alism) is still detectable. As far as freedom is concerned, this has both good and bad sides. Bad side is, tradition means authoritatianism. Good side is, it also mean no totalitarianism, since totalitarianism is a (post-)modern, non-traditional phenomenon (as much as liberalism and libertarianism, and - to some extent and in some forms - anarchism).
Can you tell us a bit more about what is going on in Russia? How much COVID-19 have they got over there, and is there any panic about it at all? Do you have any idea what might happen over there if the situation got worse?

David
 
Can you tell us a bit more about what is going on in Russia? How much COVID-19 have they got over there, and is there any panic about it at all? Do you have any idea what might happen over there if the situation got worse?

David
Up to the very recent times, not much Coronavirus-related has happened at all: people worked, studied, entertained themsevles - publicly, massively and without any anxiety, let alone panic. Things have changed only on 18th March, when, by the state and local authorities' orders, all state-funded cultural organisations was closed until further notice; this means museums, exhibitions, lecture halls, concert halls, theaters and some cinemas. Yet private cinemas are still working; for them, there was no order to remain closed, only a "recommendation" to do so, which most of them ignored. However, some large-scale privately organised events, such as rock concerts, were postponed till summer / autumn because of informal pressure by the authorities on the organisers.

Around this time as well, schools and universities stopped on-site lessons, turning to a distant learning regime.

Almost all workplaces, however, are still fully functioning, with almost all people working (as much) as usual; the only change is a demand to bring a thermometer from home and measure one's body temperature twice a workday, reporting it to the employer. The only exception are people who have just returned from abroad: they are not allowed to resume work until they spend two weeks in the quaranthine.

That's it, really: people who returned from foreign countries are the only ones who are subjected to restrictions. Most Russians are still roaming free across the urban and rural landscapes alike, without any restictive and repressive measures being enacted on them by the authorities. There are almost no panic and hysteria; a few resticctive measures that were implemented were met with ridicule and disdain.

As for the illness itself, the cases are few, and almost all of them are either foreigners or people who returned from abroad. The cases of further transmission within the Russian borders are very few in numbers.

(Well, at least this what we are told by the state authorities - and every information coming from them are certainly questionable. Yet, as for now, I know no valid reason to reject their statements.)

Compared to the insane supression of freedom to that Americans - and, even to worse degree, Europeans - are subjected, the situation in openly authoritarian Russia is surprisingly mild.
 
What do you think the government should have done and should be doing differently?
All great points made in this thread.

I have many Dutch friends and have come to know the Dutch as quite unique in there thinking. I have come to know them as examples of the word "practicality." I understand I am massively generalizing... but here's what the Dutch Prime Minister has implemented (and yes, he's been criticized) -

Note - the following article is from a source that has a known bias (don't they all) and so I read it filtering out the "opinion pushing."

I will highlight some of the statements from the article

Mark Rutte is sticking to his guns on coronavirus — and refused to shut down the Netherlands "for a year, or even longer."

Prime Minister Rutte on Wednesday defended his government’s stance of developing so-called group (or herd) immunity to coronavirus, deflecting the criticism as a “misunderstanding.”

"The objective of the approach is to not overburden the health care system, as well as protect the elderly and vulnerable," Rutte said

"Immunity is an additional effect, which is built up very slowly over time. It helps, but it is not the objective of the approach — it's not a goal to infect as many people as possible."

On Monday, Rutte said in a rare televised speech that in “the coming period, a large proportion of the Dutch population will become infected with this virus.

“As we wait for a vaccine or treatment to be developed, we can delay the spread of the virus and at the same time build up population immunity in a controlled manner.”

Jaap van Dissel, a senior expert at the Dutch health agency RIVM and adviser to the Cabinet, said that too much meaning was being given to the phrase “group immunity,” saying it was not the goal of the current measures but a consequence of them.

In the Netherlands, schools and childcare centers have been closed since Monday. Bars, restaurants, sport clubs and brothels were required to close down on Sunday.

Imposing a complete lockdown "may seem attractive on the face of it, but experts point out that it wouldn't be a matter of days or weeks. In that scenario, we would actually have to shut down our country for a year, or even longer,” Rutte said.

“Even if that were possible in practice — making people stay in their homes unless they have permission to go outside, for such a lengthy period — the virus could simply rear its head again once the measures were lifted.”

Ok... one more thing, what I did not see in this article is what I have learned from reading other articles (if true), that the Dutch are emphasizing isolation for the elderly and most vulnerable, but they are not (currently) playing with an approach that would pose a greater risk to collapsing their economy.

Here's the article link - https://www.politico.eu/article/rutte-says-dutch-government-is-doing-enough-to-fight-coronavirus/
 
Энрике, тебе понравится:

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/12907.html

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/13389.html

(For anyone: these texts are in Russian... but, I think, it is possible to use Google Translate or some similar program to read them).

Mittlerweile geht es immer schlechter in Deutschland... Diese Maßnahmen sind ein heller Wahnsinn:

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deut...verbot-a-03be351e-b344-4aed-9eda-1779b869ca9b

(A text in German; again - I think anyone can use some program to translate).

Ok, back to English-language sources. :)

P.S. Is it possible to translate a YouTube video? I know a good one on topic, but it is in German.
 
Энрике, тебе понравится:

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/12907.html

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/13389.html

(For anyone: these texts are in Russian... but, I think, it is possible to use Google Translate or some similar program to read them).

Mittlerweile geht es immer schlechter in Deutschland... Diese Maßnahmen sind ein heller Wahnsinn:

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deut...verbot-a-03be351e-b344-4aed-9eda-1779b869ca9b

(A text in German; again - I think anyone can use some program to translate).

Ok, back to English-language sources. :)

P.S. Is it possible to translate a YouTube video? I know a good one on topic, but it is in German.
Спасибо, очень интересно. Похоже что русские это единственный народ, который ещё не сошел с ума. У всех остальных просто крыша съехала.
 
I think if you read the Ioannidis, you will see which side he leans towards.
He doesn't say David. I listened and looked. He's given no public policy guidance at all.

The other articles I linked provided an alternative view to Ionnidis. No commentary there? I think you (and granted, perhaps myself as well) are simply seeking to validate your own bias.
 
He doesn't say David. I listened and looked. He's given no public policy guidance at all.

The other articles I linked provided an alternative view to Ionnidis. No commentary there? I think you (and granted, perhaps myself as well) are simply seeking to validate your own bias.
Well he ends his article with this: "If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe. "

I would have thought that was clear enough - wait until there is some reliable data before doing something precipitate, and maybe make damn sure the treatment isn't going to be worse than the disease!

David
 
Well he ends his article with this: "If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe. "

I would have thought that was clear enough - wait until there is some reliable data before doing something precipitate, and maybe make damn sure the treatment isn't going to be worse than the disease!

David
That is the rational approach.

Sadly, perception is driving the buses which generate overwhelming emotionally based conclusions in the very people who will be voting (in countries that do such) for the very politicians who are now deciding what actions to take.

It appears far too many have taken the approach, its better to appear to place "the savings of each and every life" first, even if it kills the economy and ultimately kills more people, we can't be blamed for trying to "save lives."

Lovely... we find ourselves among a massive majority who have either chosen to deny the possibility of soul or have set such great barriers between themselves at this physical, "Earth Game" level of their being and their soul that lack of rational decision making may cost us all.
 
Well he ends his article with this: "If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe. "

I would have thought that was clear enough - wait until there is some reliable data before doing something precipitate, and maybe make damn sure the treatment isn't going to be worse than the disease!

David
Just to be clear: Your suggested course of action is to wait on more data before taking action?

Take a read of this article (credit to Sciborg_S_Patel at psiencequest): The Hammer and The Dance

Thoughts?
 
It appears far too many have taken the approach, its better to appear to place "the savings of each and every life" first, even if it kills the economy and ultimately kills more people, we can't be blamed for trying to "save lives."
If anyone is beating that drum, its a minority voice.

Everyone I've spoken with in my personal network has not been focused on this point at all. They singular concern I've heard folks talking about is the scenario where our medical infrastructure collapses from COVID-19 cases requiring treatment (not necessarily fatal).

That's also what seems to be the prevailing concern being raised in the MSM via television, at least that I've seen.
 
Энрике, тебе понравится:

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/12907.html

https://antiscientism.livejournal.com/13389.html

(For anyone: these texts are in Russian... but, I think, it is possible to use Google Translate or some similar program to read them).

Mittlerweile geht es immer schlechter in Deutschland... Diese Maßnahmen sind ein heller Wahnsinn:

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deut...verbot-a-03be351e-b344-4aed-9eda-1779b869ca9b

(A text in German; again - I think anyone can use some program to translate).

Ok, back to English-language sources. :)

P.S. Is it possible to translate a YouTube video? I know a good one on topic, but it is in German.
Well, I hope no one will object if I post the German-language video that I mentioned in my previous post - a longer interview with Wolfgang Wodarg:


From now on, I really stop posting non-English stuff here - it is not a best action on an international (and thus united-by-English) forum.
 
Well, I hope no one will object if I post the German-language video that I mentioned in my previous post - a longer interview with Wolfgang Wodarg:


From now on, I really stop posting non-English stuff here - it is not a best action on an international (and thus united-by-English) forum.
Well why not give us a summary of what he says, and in particular can you tell us how recent the video is, because we have an evolving situation?

David
 
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