Daniel Pinchbeck, How Soon is Now, Heavy-Handed Climate Apocalypse Stuff |343|

You see, Nelson??? They don't even want to see the evidence. Three links I posted (and I can post them ad infinitum, the evidence is more than overwhelming) haven't been even looked at. They keep calling this cockamamie "ranking" objective evidence".... Which, again, is very telling: if the horrendous, Orwenllian, nightmarish Scandinavian dystopia is their ideal society, we are in for a rough ride.
Happy, happy, la la la: http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/223150/swedens-totalitarian-face-fjordman
La, la, la, it's a paradise:
Unfortunately, as you say, the actual evidence doesn't mean anything to these people. There is no point debating these people to convince them, only as an example so that others can see.

I'm going to take a break from Skeptiko for a while, but just to underline some patterns here. As Roberta has shown on this thread, she made it seem as if the only options were to have either 1. a global tax system or 2. risk destroying the planet. She then claimed she was for decentralization, even though at the same time she defended the Communist Manifesto to the hilt. The same can be seen in the disingenuousness of Rees, whose posts are mainly rhetoric and disinfo. Even in the link to the preface of the Communist Manifesto I posted above, Marx and Engels wrote that they didn't give more detailed instructions on what the proletariat should do, because the situation was fluid. Even the word Manifesto is an indicator of what their intention was. But Roberta and Rees will continue to defend this mass-murdering ideology and many more millions of people who simply want to live their lives in peace might be killed for this bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal movement.

Hopefully this will never happen again!

Take care, Enrique, it's been nice talking to you and other well-intentioned people here at Skeptiko!
 
Unfortunately, as you say, the actual evidence doesn't mean anything to these people. There is no point debating these people to convince them, only as an example so that others can see.

I'm going to take a break from Skeptiko for a while, but just to underline some patterns here. As Roberta has shown on this thread, she made it seem as if the only options were to have either 1. a global tax system or 2. risk destroying the planet. She then claimed she was for decentralization, even though at the same time she defended the Communist Manifesto to the hilt. The same can be seen in the disingenuousness of Rees, whose posts are mainly rhetoric and disinfo. Even in the link to the preface of the Communist Manifesto I posted above, Marx and Engels wrote that they didn't give more detailed instructions on what the proletariat should do, because the situation was fluid. Even the word Manifesto is an indicator of what their intention was. But Roberta and Rees will continue to defend this mass-murdering ideology and many more millions of people who simply want to live their lives in peace might be killed for this bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal movement.

Hopefully this will never happen again!

Take care, Enrique, it's been nice talking to you and other well-intentioned people here at Skeptiko!
See what this sociopath is doing? "Marx merely outlined", "analyzed"... etc. (Dictatorship of proletariat, expropriation of small agrarians, extermination of Scots, Serbs and other ethnic groups ((as "outlined" in Marx/Engels articles in Rheinische Zeitung)) who were "not ready for the proletarian revolution", to this guy, is mere outlining). Like Hitler merely "outlined" why the Jews had to be exterminated. I've been studying this genocidal ideology, communism, all my life, was born in a communist country, this liar is not going to mislead me. I'm not going to waste my time on arguing with these defenders of evil, why bother? It's like trying to explain to a cannibal why eating humans is bad, or trying to convince a nazi that burning Jews is evil.
It's funny how this guy brags about "living all over Europe", as if the rest of us were ignorant rednecks who never left the hills of Appalachia. Sure, I'm an ignorant redneck who speaks five languages, has been to over 80 countries and who travels regularly all over the world (yeas, Scandinavian countries included). One last point: it's amazing how they imply ignorance on the part of their opponents: if you detest marxism, you haven't read Marx and Engels, if you are anti-islam, you don't know Qur'an and Hadith. Those of us who know both subjects can see through this guy's primitive, verborrheic bullshit. I'm done debating here, it was great reading you and Charlie, take care.
Oh, and for the Sweden-loving spiritual slaves: https://redice.tv/news/sweden-a-tre...es-the-world-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-cash
 
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Unfortunately, as you say, the actual evidence doesn't mean anything to these people. There is no point debating these people to convince them, only as an example so that others can see.

I'm going to take a break from Skeptiko for a while, but just to underline some patterns here. As Roberta has shown on this thread, she made it seem as if the only options were to have either 1. a global tax system or 2. risk destroying the planet. She then claimed she was for decentralization, even though at the same time she defended the Communist Manifesto to the hilt. The same can be seen in the disingenuousness of Rees, whose posts are mainly rhetoric and disinfo. Even in the link to the preface of the Communist Manifesto I posted above, Marx and Engels wrote that they didn't give more detailed instructions on what the proletariat should do, because the situation was fluid. Even the word Manifesto is an indicator of what their intention was. But Roberta and Rees will continue to defend this mass-murdering ideology and many more millions of people who simply want to live their lives in peace might be killed for this bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal movement.

Hopefully this will never happen again!

Take care, Enrique, it's been nice talking to you and other well-intentioned people here at Skeptiko!
What a nasty passive aggressive comment, with a complete lack of self awareness. Me and others who disagree apparently don't listen to the evidence, but when I posted you the freedom index showing all the Scandinavian countries are ranked as very free, you dismissed it. Yet YouTube videos are good evidence?

And I didn't defend the ideology, I repeatedly said I'm not a communist or a Marxist, I questioned whether Stalin/Mao were actual examples of Communism. I've decided they could be examples of very early stage Communism, but we haven't seen any late stage Communism, or any of the more modern versions of it, such as full automated luxury Communism.

Definitely take a break, since you think it's okay to talk about people on a thread instead of addressing them directly.
 

Brian_the_bard

Lost Pilgrim
Member
I moved from the UK to live in Sweden two years ago - talk to me! Sweden is a very forward thinking country that values human rights way above any country I know. I will watch the offending video when I can but for now I would like the ignorant capitalists who hate Scandinavia to shut up until you are better informed!
 
I moved from the UK to live in Sweden two years ago - talk to me! Sweden is a very forward thinking country that values human rights way above any country I know. I will watch the offending video when I can but for now I would like the ignorant capitalists who hate Scandinavia to shut up until you are better informed!
I have visited Denmark, dated a girl from Finland, and yesterday I befriended another girl from Finland. Her idea of not having freedom? Regulations for opening a business in your garage!

Tell us about Sweden, I'd like to know what it's like to live there from someone who actually does live there!
 

Brian_the_bard

Lost Pilgrim
Member
I have visited Denmark, dated a girl from Finland, and yesterday I befriended another girl from Finland. Her idea of not having freedom? Regulations for opening a business in your garage!

Tell us about Sweden, I'd like to know what it's like to live there from someone who actually does live there!
The most notable thing is the rights I have as a worker. I am only an extra but I am able to support myself and my wife on a part time wage. We work as a team of equals and the boss often asks me what to do. I get invited to meetings where I can openly voice complaints and my suggestions are taken seriously. I have recieved free education to learn to speak Swedish. If I had children I could have long periods of parental leave to spend quality time with my children. I get holiday pay even though I am an extra. etc etc etc. Far far better and freer than either the UK or the US!
 
The most notable thing is the rights I have as a worker. I am only an extra but I am able to support myself and my wife on a part time wage. We work as a team of equals and the boss often asks me what to do. I get invited to meetings where I can openly voice complaints and my suggestions are taken seriously. I have recieved free education to learn to speak Swedish. If I had children I could have long periods of parental leave to spend quality time with my children. I get holiday pay even though I am an extra. etc etc etc. Far far better and freer than either the UK or the US!
How do you cope with all that money, workers rights, extra pay and free education? Sounds super Orwellian to me. What else do you have to deal with!?!
 

Brian_the_bard

Lost Pilgrim
Member
How do you cope with all that money, workers rights, extra pay and free education? Sounds super Orwellian to me. What else do you have to deal with!?!
Oh it's so scary Roberta!!! We can walk on all land even if it is owned. If we own land we can build a small house without planning permission. Cost of housing is very low compared to the UK. I really don't know how to cope!
 
I 'get' this place.... it's more sophisticated in that there seems to be a lot of people here who've delved deeply in their particular
brand of 'arcana' and are very passionate about it. And as Daniel Tosh says, "and for that I thank you".
There's a ton of interesting info presented here by all sides of an issue.
 
Another interesting thread that got ruined by politics and ideology. I do wish people would try to have empathy with their "political" enemies. We are all human and fallible, after all.
I dare say it comes from both sides of an argument though. I'm guilty.

However it is curious how adamant some are about others not being convinced by what they present as being somehow 'willfully ignorant'
when the same can be said of them regarding evidence presented they don't agree with
 

Brian_the_bard

Lost Pilgrim
Member
Another interesting thread that got ruined by politics and ideology. I do wish people would try to have empathy with their "political" enemies. We are all human and fallible, after all.
I will apologize for being angry but I want to be understood here. The internet is full of American capitalists accusing Sweden of being a communist or practically communist country and I get fed up with it. I also get fed up with Nelson's " this is the only evidence and anybody who doesn't agree is weak minded" attitude towards just about everything whenever he posts. Again, I apologize to anybody who was genuinely ignorant but the "evidence" is so twistable and interpretable that to make public accusations against a country without ever having spoken to people who live there isn't a good idea.
 
Another interesting thread that got ruined by politics and ideology. I do wish people would try to have empathy with their "political" enemies. We are all human and fallible, after all.
Depends on the subject and the views. If you're an immigrant in America, would you have empathy with the views of Richard Spencer?

It's easy to tell people to have empathy if their views don't personally affect ourselves. When it comes to some of these things the consequences are very severe. I apologise if I've gone over the top in tone but if people say Sweden isn't a free country, and say that the freedom index is 'biased' that shows it is, and then say I ignore evidence, it's pretty damn frustrating.
 
I will apologize for being angry but I want to be understood here. The internet is full of American capitalists accusing Sweden of being a communist or practically communist country and I get fed up with it. I also get fed up with Nelson's " this is the only evidence and anybody who doesn't agree is weak minded" attitude towards just about everything whenever he posts. Again, I apologize to anybody who was genuinely ignorant but the "evidence" is so twistable and interpretable that to make public accusations against a country without ever having spoken to people who live there isn't a good idea.
Robert Anton Wilson understood it better than anyone - and I learned a lot from his brilliant thinking. He is one of my sources of inspiration - and yours as well, I suppose (aren't you the one who dedicated the thread to his works)?
 
http://www.economist.com/node/21564412

Oct 13th 2012
...
Thanks to deregulation, budget discipline and an extensive overhaul of the welfare state, Sweden’s economy has been transformed in the two decades since its banking crisis. The new Swedish model is quite different from the leftist stereotype.

...

The inheritance tax was eliminated in 2005, the wealth tax in 2007 and taxes on residential property in 2008. Thanks, in part, to these tax changes, capital income has soared, particularly at the top of Sweden’s income scale.

...

Sweden has cut taxes on labour, especially for the low-skilled. The Earned Income Tax Credit, which offers strong incentives for lower-skilled people to work, marks the biggest change. Other innovations, such as a credit for hiring household help, are designed to spur demand for low-wage workers. Union membership dues, in contrast, no longer qualify for tax relief. Benefits have been reformed at the same time as taxes. All handouts, from jobless aid to disability benefits, have become less generous, more short-lived and harder to qualify for.
...
Many schools are now independently run, and in health care private management is a growing trend​
 
See what this sociopath is doing?
Don't let them get you down Enrique. Cosmic Justice eventually finds a way.

Remember that in Bolshevik Russia, Mao’s China, and Pol Pot’s Cambodia, the Useful Idiot middle-class “intellectuals” who marched in support of The Revolution and wrote screeds in the newspaper advocating for it were always the first to be lined up shot as soon as the Communists took over an area and sent out their death squads of teenage revolutionaires to mop up potential problems.
 
This place is such a weird mix mash of world views. People are into one thing whilst seemingly also into something incongruent.
But I'm going by my experience, which may be the weird one, lol
 
Don't let them get you down Enrique. Cosmic Justice eventually finds a way.

Remember that in Bolshevik Russia, Mao’s China, and Pol Pot’s Cambodia, the Useful Idiot middle-class “intellectuals” who marched in support of The Revolution and wrote screeds in the newspaper advocating for it were always the first to be lined up shot as soon as the Communists took over an area and sent out their death squads of teenage revolutionaires to mop up potential problems.
Yep, Solzhenitsyn used to say that all these intellectuals of the XX century - H. G. Wells, Lion Feuchtwanger, Sartre, Brecht, etc, etc, were scoundrels, guilty of aiding slavery and genocide. And so they were. Didn't get any better in the XXI century.
Talking about communists exterminating intellectuals: in post Lenin's coup-d'état Russia, en China, en Cambodia, etc, wearing eyeglasses or a derby would get you killed, given that those were signs of belonging to the "rotten bourgoisie or intelligentzia". There were a few intereting documentaries and books on the subject.
 
So just because some climate scientists cheated and manipulated data, for different reasons and agendas, therefore we should shelve all the data and ignore the poisoning of the biosphere and do nothing?
The tobacco industry used similar arguments to maintain the fiction of plausible doubt over the negative health impacts of smoking
I think Daniel is right about Alex's tone of resistance - it's like Alex knows deep down that smoking cannot be good for you, but he resists actually doing anything about it
But humanity will not be able to ignore the biospheric crisis which our industrial civilisation is causing
And we wont be able to talk about it for ever
Very soon we will have to act; and it will have to be coordinated global action - that is to say we will have to cooperate and regulate etc
and that is where a lot of people have a problem - especially neoliberals; they see is as threatening their ideology of competitive individualism
But the free market is not competent to deal with this crisis
We need new systems of economy and production and distribution
 
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