David Sunfellow, Can the Scientific Study of NDEs Reveal the Purpose of Life? |413|

Wahhabism is like Islam as much as the KKK is like Christianity
Hey Pamela and welcome - one quick soapbox, and then a comment on your excellent post.

Don't fall for US and elitist European progressive academic myth. Islam as a religious eschatology, is a problem globally - from the Philippines to Sweden to DRC Africa. As a person who has worked in the Wahhabist triangle in Saudi Arabia (and had to wear a disguise to keep from being assaulted or killed) and worked on the Yemeni rebuild - the CIA neither started, nor is it sustaining this 900 year old conflict of Shi'a empire aspiration. Radical Islamic (both Shi'a and Sunni) expansion is ranked in the top 5 concerns of every nation for which I have done infrastructure strategy, throughout Asia and Africa. It was the #2 concern for China - #1 for the Philippines. Not one country has ever cited extreme elements of Christianity as a top concern.

The KKK-mindset has been rejected and denounced by Christianity - it is no longer any form of exculpatory analogy. Islam has not exorcized its darker nature - and still celebrates and wallows inside it. Citing expansionist and displacing/genocidal radical portions of the religion is not a fallacy of composition at all - until Islam begins to denounce this prevailing circumstance globally and publicly takes action against this philosophy - all mankind will suffer the Tyflocracy of the Imams. But back to our thread topic.

The rest of your post Pamela is insightful and well stated ;;/? Two things I found I had to reject from having lived that ruin they can cause in one's life

1. Tying up heavy bundles to place on men's shoulders, of heaven-hell and 'you might not really be saved unless faith is confirmed' and 'once you lose your salvation you can never regain it'. The cruelty of these teachings is very dark - perhaps the most evil thing a man can do to another, short of murder/rape.​
2. "[Taking] the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life." < --- well stated!​
Spiritual integrity (context 'wholeness of structure' not 'morality or goodness') involves not letting either philosophy corrupt your mission and intent.
 
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I’m not rejecting David’s ideas about our reality being planned and perfect like some people feel it is in NDE’s , or LOA, or the idea of co-creation, from ignorance about them or a lack of exploration of them. I’m rejecting them because I used to follow these ideas and they ruined my life. They take the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life, our experiences and the experiences of those around us.
Here is what I know in the aftermath of my following them and now not following them—We are here and this is the only life we get for now that we know of. That means if you don’t take life seriously and pay attention to the people that matter you aren’t going to get a second chance...
Hi Pamela.

First of all, wow! Being an activist for Yemen puts you in the deep end of the ocean. Clearly, you're wrestling with some of big issues -- and, it appears, discovered one of life's biggest secrets: that you actually have to get involved, and really connect with people in need, to make a difference.

You write:

"I'm rejecting [ideas promoted by NDEs that we create our own realities] because I used to follow these ideas and they ruined my life. They take the meaning out of life and turn it into a lesson, turn it into a trivial thing. This can cause us to ignore or put on the back burner what is most important in life, our experiences and the experiences of those around us."

There is, unfortunately, a lot of misunderstanding around this topic. There are also many near-death experiencers who misunderstand this topic too and get into serious trouble because of that lack of understanding.

As I have repeatedly said, the topics we are discussing are complicated, nuanced, deep. You really have to wade in and spend some serious time trying to understand and embody them. Many of us also have a lot of personal development to do before these ideas make sense and can be effectively applied in our lives. And I include myself in this. This is not The Matrix where we simply drive up, plug ourselves into a cosmic computer (or read a few books), and then we can expertly fly the helicopter of life. No, the process for most of us is slow, confusing, frustrating, and brutal. We learn something. Try it. Fall on our faces. And then try again. And again. And again. Until we get it right and can move on to the next impossible-to-apply idea.

As I've said before, as far as I can see there are two basic poles in life: heaven and earth, east and west, being and becoming, female and male, yin and yang. We all tend to gravitate to one side or the other.

If we tend to be doing people, we are drawn to earthy, practical things. Forget all this talk of God, other realities, mystical beings, unseen forces. We're impatient. We like science and insist on solutions that actually work in the real world: math that makes planes fly, engineering that builds bridges, hard science that cleans dirty air and lakes, physical interventions that actually stops wars and feeds people.

If we tend to be more being people, we are drawn to spiritual, intellectual things. Otherworldly ideas set our hearts and souls on fire. If this impulse is really strong in us, we're not fans of science, or of fixing and healing this world. We tend to think the whole mess is an illusion and we want out. So we meditate. And pray. We spend a lot of time detached and disengaged from the hard realities of life. We're the person who sees the homeless person, thinks they have created their own reality, says a prayer, and drives on by.

There is truth in both of these perspectives. But birds don't fly with only one wing. They need both. I think we need two wings too.

Near-death experiences, as a whole, do not promote airy-fairy, crystal-coated magic wands. They do not suggest, as New Age positive thinking movements like The Secret do, that if you just think more positively, make ourselves a manifestation bulletin board, and fire off a few emotion-filled affirmations that the red sports car we want will magically appear in our driveway. Nor do they suggest that our personal problems, or collective problems (wars, genocide, sex trafficking, environmental destruction, species extinction, etc.) will be magically solved overnight. What they offer are life-changing, front-row seats that show us how our thoughts and behaviors create our personal and collective realities, which, in turn, reveals how to make them better. NDErs are often shown, for example, not only why they chose (and helped create) the suffering situations they encountered, but why their parents did, too. And their parent's parents. They often experience these creations from multiple perspectives -- from their perspective, from the perspective of the person they are in relationship with, from the perspective of higher forces who are tracking everything across time and space (and beyond time and space), even from the perspectives of future generations.

This is valuable information. It's valuable because it not only helps us see and understand how realities in general are created, but also because it helps us see how we create the realities we experience -- and how to change them for the better.

We can blow this off if we want to, but if we do, we limit our ability to effectively deal with the multi-faceted natures of whatever situations we are dealing with. We're not only dealing with the obvious cause and effect realities of this world. We are also dealing with the cause and effect realities of all kinds of unseen forces. It's good to know that -- and find concrete ways to work with these powerful, invisible forces.

Ditto for thinking love, light, and feel-good spiritual ideas will do all the work for us. If fail to put these forces to work in the real world in practical ways, their effectiveness is also limited, as you have learned.
 
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Totally. Even in mundane reality you see this. You can be dragged into an argument or someone's negative space unless you're mindful. At that point you're dancing to their tune.

None of this means I don't believe there are manipulators out there. I have no doubt that there are folks pushing narratives and belief systems they know are not true with the goal of keeping us unevolved. I don't think the Randi-type skeptics or the disinformation peddlers are benign.
Meurs,
Of course there are liars, deceivers with the sinister intent of taking control of your mind and perceptions; basically enslaving you until your ruin. That's what the Devil is. But why does anyone care about what they say? Why does anyone care what Randi says, or some deep state CIA goon? Or a politician? Or a "scientist" with an agenda? How can they pull the wool over your eyes? That's the part I don't get. Let them squawk, rant and honk away in their stupid putrid space. The only people concerned with what they say are people that are lost and confused and looking for someone to lead them and tell them what's real. Basically the concerned are, by choice, the flip side of the same coin, as far as I can see.

You will merely go crazy and wreck yourself trying to free those who have willfully allowed themselves to be deceived. They killed Jesus. Someone is going to better than Jesus?

All you can do, IMHO, is tell the truth as you know it, express your soul and value freedom. If someone is ready to be free, they might see what you're putting out there and gain some encouragement from it to delve deeper into their own soul journey.
 
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Meurs,
Of course there are liars, deceivers with the sinister intent of taking control of your mind and perceptions; basically enslaving you until your ruin. That's what the Devil is. But why does anyone care about what they say? Why does anyone care what Randi says, or some deep state CIA goon? Or a politician? Or a "scientist" with an agenda? How can they pull the wool over your eyes? That's the part I don't get. Let them squawk, rant and honk away in their stupid putrid space. The only people concerned with what they say are people that are lost and confused and looking for someone to lead them and tell them what's real. Basically the concerned are, by choice, the flip side of the same coin, as far as I can see.
Yes, I agree. It took me a while to learn. I spent a couple years collecting protective crystals and constructing orgonite pyramids and doing the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, etc. None of it helped. Only when I purged myself of the mindset that I was in a fight that everything calmed down.

I do believe that large groups of people sincerely praying for the world would help to counter the groups who are putting negative intention into this reality. I'd love to participate in such a prayer circle. (Alex's work on this site is also helpful in countering their mind games).

(While typing this out, I felt the familiar sensation behind my heart chakra that used to send me into mild panic. Now I treat it like the sniffles and it goes away).
 
I have been reflecting on the NDE phenomena and its relation to major world religions as embodied in their original teaching.

I see Beings such as Jesus as being in a different category to NDEers having founded a world religion and brought new laws. He declared that He was sent by God and was not stopped by severe persecution. Consider how many followers there are even after 2000 years.

I know this is a big subject and difficult but feel this needs saying. Neither am I supporting all the subsequent abuses which occurred and for which I feel man is responsible.
 
Don't fall for US and elitist European progressive academic myth. Islam as a religious eschatology, is a problem globally - from the Philippines to Sweden to DRC Africa. As a person who has worked in the Wahhabist triangle in Saudi Arabia (and had to wear a disguise to keep from being assaulted or killed) and worked on the Yemeni rebuild - the CIA neither started, nor is it sustaining this 900 year old conflict of Shi'a empire aspiration. Radical Islamic (both Shi'a and Sunni) expansion is ranked in the top 5 concerns of every nation for which I have done infrastructure strategy, throughout Asia and Africa. It was the #2 concern for China - #1 for the Philippines. Not one country has ever cited extreme elements of Christianity as a top concern.

The KKK-mindset has been rejected and denounced by Christianity - it is no longer any form of exculpatory analogy. Islam has not exorcized its darker nature - and still celebrates and wallows inside it. Citing expansionist and displacing/genocidal radical portions of the religion is not a fallacy of composition at all - until Islam begins to denounce this prevailing circumstance globally and publicly takes action against this philosophy - all mankind will suffer the Tyflocracy of the Imams. But back to our thread topic.

you lose your salvation you can never regain it'. The cruelty of these teachings is very dark - perhaps the most evil thing a man can do to another, short of murder/rape.QUOTE]

Thank you, TES.

Same goes for Central and South America (as someone with that experience). The US has not been responsible for the perpetual troubles there either, despite typical ignorant Lefty anti-US BS that imagines a Rousseau- esque paradise but for evil Yankee meddling. The reality is quite to the contrary.

Islam is a lethal virus; as is Banana Republic culture.

Islam is a cheap tribal/barbaric knock-off of the superior Judeo-Christian tradition. Muslims have been cruelly slaughtering each other since Mohammed's time. No US involvement required at all.

I get sick and tired of political science academic moral equivalence and fantasies of "the other" as superior noble heroes. As I have said before, the US is the most prosperous, just and free society that the world has ever seen. Perfect? No. But light years ahead of cultures that stone women to death for showing a little leg or kissing before marriage or dancing to Western music - and chop off a man's head for little more; or less. Or societies where the law is whatever El Hefe says it is at the moment.
 
Don't fall for US and elitist European progressive academic myth. Islam as a religious eschatology, is a problem globally - from the Philippines to Sweden to DRC Africa. As a person who has worked in the Wahhabist triangle in Saudi Arabia (and had to wear a disguise to keep from being assaulted or killed) and worked on the Yemeni rebuild - the CIA neither started, nor is it sustaining this 900 year old conflict of Shi'a empire aspiration. Radical Islamic (both Shi'a and Sunni) expansion is ranked in the top 5 concerns of every nation for which I have done infrastructure strategy, throughout Asia and Africa. It was the #2 concern for China - #1 for the Philippines. Not one country has ever cited extreme elements of Christianity as a top concern.
Hi TES

I just feel I have to push back against this anti-Islam tirade. There is just far too much evidence of the U.S. (and UKs) selfish interference which has affected millions of innocent people’s lives world-wide to sit quietly by. Doing so will no doubt bring forth a tirade of response from some and anti-Steve feeling within others. So be it. I’m fed up of people sitting on the fence while feeling deep in their gut that they should probably say something, but feel intimidated, or shy, or whatever. Maybe I’m wrong and they agree with what’s being said and feel no need to push against it? Is it any surprise that I think I’m in the minority here on this forum?

During my lifetime The Middle East has always been seen as a ‘troubled place’.( I know that Islam is far from only that area. )The media have portrayed it mainly as such, the Arabs are usually portrayed as shifty, devious con artists, while the WW2 stiff upper lipped English Officer (I forgot Zulu) and the honest ordinary British ‘Johnny’ are there defending freedom, as usual. John Wayne is the US equivalent, with his band of flag loving footsoldiers. The Japs and the Jerries then the gooks and finally the aae-rabs being the latest evil enemy. That simply doesn’t wash any longer. What were you doing in the Wahhabi Triangle? The Yemeni rebuild? British and American technology have surely not been helping that these past few years! ( British Aerospace, Raytheon et al) Of all the many places in the world, what are the chances of an American being there? One that worked for some spy agency.

All this and Jesus too.

Wow, it’s amazing.

Nowadays, I’d rather die than fight for any flag. Self defence? Yes, but where do you draw the line. Nuke them before they nuke you? Fuck that.

There is so much more I could write, but it’d be pointless. I’ve made my pointless point. I do have faith in Jesus and God. I will leave it to them...

I choose to read The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran (sounds like an Arab :)). It’s relatively easy to understand, there’s nothing too complex within it - but within it, everything that is important is explained. I struggle with the Bible, but this little book is my equivalent. As far as I am aware, it’s baggage free. Long may it stay that way.

http://www.brainybetty.com/2007Motivation/Khalil Gibran - The Prophet.pdf
 
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Wow! First up this was a great post to the very end. There are so many ideas that are evocative and provocative, all worthy of reflection and comment.

Being loved in a mysterious, incomprehensible, confusing way is not the kind of love I'd like to receive. I get this. That's how I felt for years. I know that for some (me included) the love we get from parents can challenge us because they express their love for us imperfectly. That kind of love can injure us - unintentionally. I was badly screwed up by my parent's love for me.

But this mysterious stuff is different. I am not a child, but an adult seeking insight and some kind of spiritual harmony. I am also demanding and probably kind of stupid too. I came out of quite a few years of radical 'woo' experiences pretty beaten up, emotionally exhausted, and I certainly did not feel loved - far from it. I felt assailed. Decades later I see that time differently. In shamanic tradition there is the idea of breaking a person and reassembling them.

There's a saying - those whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad. But I know that in a different sense - those who the Gods would raise up they first make mad. The first saying has never made any sense to me. The second does. Not only does it mirror the shamanic lore, it reflects many disciplines and traditions of access to sacred lore.

So its not tender love. Its the love of spirit for who seek to know it deeper. That's a tough love.

When things are kept hidden it is because they're 'something wrong' with them. Sometimes this is true. But sometimes the secret thing is dangerous by its own nature. A medicine can be beneficial when taken as directed. but toxic otherwise.So it is better hidden from those who do not know the difference. An idea may be dangerous if encountered by an unprepared mind. But that could be a long philosophical and moral debate.

The sources that drive the 11:11 stuff may be of a nature that does not support simple disclosure. Sometimes we have to work to get ourselves to a point where we have matured sufficiently to make knowing the source is a safe proposition. You only have to look at the ET Disclosure debate to see that there are many different levels of engagement with the idea - and different interpretations and expectations leading to wildly different responses.

I would prefer (and this is my wish for all sentient beings) to be on the receiving end of a kind of love which expresses itself in a sincere, open and down-to-earth way. But would that love be received as it is intended? The mystification is a two way exchange.
Thank you Michael for your very kind words. Of course, your take on things is uplifting and encouraging, but frankly I remain skeptical as regards the purpose of all this as something that is meant to be "good for us". As I said, the mystery of our existence is too confusing and painful to see it as some benevolent plan which "revolves around us", was set in motion and is governed by metaphysical entity/ies who are doing it "for us". With reference to the sync I described here - the artist of the "Guardians of time" believes that there are benevolent beings watching over us. Maybe SOME beings are benevolent, but obviously they do not have enough power to do a proper job, since the material world is chock-full of injustice, pain and suffering (inherent in nature itself - "Nature red in teeth and claw"). I look at the facts rather than at the "messages" (and I would do the same if I had an NDE and was told that "all is good"; I would not take it at face value). If you want to know if someone really loves you, you should look at what they do for you, especially in times of trouble, not blindly believe in the "sweet nothings" that they may whisper in your ear.

More specifically, with reference to your post - why is it that we need "breaking"?? The words God and Gods mean all things to all people, so I have no idea if by "Gods" you mean "creator force(s)". In that case it would be pretty appalling to hear that "something" that allegedly made us in the first place (creator/s) now wishes to "break us" (your words) or to "make us mad" (your words again). I mean, even if this was the case, why would we approve of this?

This also applies to these NDE-based "religions" which basically tell us that, although our condition is akin to that of guinea pigs undergoing vivisection in a laboratory, we should be feeling happy and grateful because our suffering in this make-believe world of illusion (and while the world may be an illusion, the suffering and the evil and the diseases are NOT an illusion for us because we feel them!) is serving some higher purpose which we can't understand. Just because a system is "perfect" (ie, it works as a well-oiled machine) does not mean that it is ethical (power and might are not synonymous with justice and fairness). I fail to see why, just because the Universe is "perfect in its functioning" as a machine, we should approve of what goes on in it.

This is my point when I say that I am not drinking the Kool-aid. EVEN if it were, as NDEr's purport, ie, some kind of dream (often a nightmare in fact), where even serial killers and child molesters are only playing a game unwittingly, so it's all good (never mind about the victims, right?), I don't see how this could be something to rejoice about, to endorse, and to cooperate in - rather I see it as something to denounce and to rebel against!!!

But alas, the concept of this life as a school or a playground (??) is full of holes and does not hold water logically or ethically, and frankly I'm not going to invest any more time to debunk it. Let those who find solace in it (and honestly, I have no idea why!) continue to struggle to find meaning in something which obviously doesn't offer it (to us - but maybe there's someone watching us and enjoying the reality show we sentient beings are thrown into)
 
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Thanks for the support. I don’t want to diverge too much off topic, but as an activist for Yemen who goes up against a lot of assumptions about Islam that are patently false, please remember that ‘terrorosts’ are getting guns and weapons and training from the CIA and are being bussed into the territories the CIA needs dissent to exist as an excuse to go attack there for whatever resources or geopolitical advantage they want.
Also, when you speak of terrorism and people not being allowed to choose a religion , you are referring to Wahhabism practices not Islam. Islam has Jesus as a prophet, has existed alongside Christianity in many areas that have been attacked by the terrorists so now they have to wear hijab and hide Christianity or be killed prior to our bombs ‘liberating ‘ them, and Islam does not promote violence in any way. Wahhabism is the brutal Saudi facist sect thar what we have helped our buddies the Saudis promote and spread for our own purposes. Wahhabism is like Islam as much as the KKK is like Christianity
Other than
That, thanks for the support
I liked your latest post, too, and agree with most of it, but I must say I think you over overreacted to my mention of Islamic terrorists. I didn't say "Muslims" in general. I referred specifically to Islamic terrorists, which to me is a neutral description of those people (terrorists who promote an IslamIST - note the "ist" - ideology). It's not my fault that they do! It's a fact.
If there were Buddhist terrorists out there, I would have no problem referring to them as such, but with that expression I would definitely not mean all Buddhists on the planet.
 
Jesus emerges as something special. If we search human history for a human being that embodies the core qualities of The Light that appears in so many NDEs, I've come to believe that Jesus emerges as the most full-blown embodiment of that Light. I could be wrong about this, and I am willing to change this view if the evidence leads me elsewhere...
What is clear is that Jesus is an embodiment of an ideal - a mythic or archetypal character who is 'real' to us. Whether he had an actual historic presence is unimportant - despite the efforts by Christianity to create a unique historical anchor. It may have been that there was a genuine spiritual teacher upon whom the later mythic persona was modelled, but, as is usual with history, the seeds of the myth are long discarded once the myth takes root and flourishes. As with history it is not person that matters to us but our memory of them, and our imagination of their virtues.

So I agree - "Jesus emerges as the most full-blown embodiment of that Light" - where it matters most - in our spiritual imaginations. We must remember that the Christian ideal of Jesus has meaning only post-mortem. That is - in spirit form. There are uncounted versions of Jesus who assuredly looks nothing like any possible seed persona - so what is encountered in NDEs or in other forms of experience is more likely to be an imagined form that is the vehicle for the Christ.

Ww have to remember that Paul introduced the idea of Christ Jesus thus indicating another dimension of thinking that came well after any historic Jesus gone. We seem to be in the habit of thinking that Christ is a last name rather than a title - a spiritual agent rather than just the post mortem spirit of a human (assuming the idea that he the literal son of God is not being entertained). The religion is called Christianity, not Jesuanity.

The presence of Christ in NDEs and elsewhere expressing through the imagined images of Jesus makes sense to me. But this idea of Christ is independent of Jesus and Christianity and belongs to a deeper and more ancient tradition.
 
awesome... thx for sharing. love the part about your mother requesting a hard to find book and then not being interested when it arrives because it wasn't really for her it was for you :) from the little bit I know about you from this forum, this kind of poetic playfulness would seem a good way to get your attention :)
Thank you Alex - I choose to take the above as a compliment although I am not sure I know what you mean, hehe!

You may be interested in reading my reply to Michael's comments (I just posted it) as I refer again to that sync.
 
More specifically, with reference to your post - why is it that we need "breaking"?? The words God and Gods mean all things to all people, so I have no idea if by "Gods" you mean "creator force(s)". In that case it would be pretty appalling to hear that "something" that allegedly made us in the first place (creator/s) now wishes to "break us" (your words) or to "make us mad" (your words again). I mean, even if this was the case, why would we approve of this?
This is a far deeper theme than I can convey here. The very origin of Christianity tells of an expulsion from Eden for the commission of a sin of wanting to know. That expulsion could be seen as a trauma - a kind of 'birth' into the world of matter. Traditional cultures have ceremonies to mark the transition from childhood to adulthood that can be deeply painful and even deeply dangerous.

The transition from innocence to the next state seems always to be a journey through pain, of breaking away from what we were to become what we will be. The image of Jesus on the cross is actually an initiatory shamanic image that is hinted at, but never explicitly explored by Christianity - which would not want anyone to think it is rooted in a shamanic tradition.

In Buddhism we find the ideas of release from suffering and desire through deep personal disciplines that can test resolve. In Christianity and elsewhere there are references to the 'dark night of the soul' - a period of existential trauma. In love we know of 'heartbreak'.

The very nature of physical existence embodies profound challenges in which 'breaking' or 'going mad' are acknowledged risks - and this is especially so in religious and military senses (especially when combined) where character is tested to the extreme.

I think the same applies to a gentler degree in ordinary lives, when people have their faith tested, or simply their ability to endure and survive shocking life circumstances. For example psychological trauma generated by physical, emotional and sexual abuse of children will, break some and send them mad, while others endure damaged and yet others live decent enough lives.

If we assent to these trials (and I do not believe all do) we must assume there is a loving wisdom behind it all - and if not that, what? Jesus exhorted his disciples to endure suffering for 'his sake'. Why would the embodiment of Love suggest such a thing?

I am not suggesting the above is an answer - just an indication of the complexity and difficulty of the ideas.
 
I fail to see why, just because the Universe is "perfect in its functioning" as a machine, we should approve of what goes on in it.
I am immediately reminded of a cartoon image of mouse 'flipping the bird' to a huge eagle descending upon it. And I want to say to you - That's so right! That's part of the essential dynamic.

The universe is not a machine. It is conscious agency which must know all it is. That means it must know the evils as well as the goods. So far as we can tell it is orientated towards the good - and our role is learning to become agents of good (the forces of niceness if you are a Maxwell Smart fan). You are right. We should not approve of evils. We may acknowledge they exist. But we should act to transform them. Then ideal of human life is an evolution toward the good - but we need to remember that we all do not start from the same place. Its not a competition, as some religious think, but a collaboration, a co-creation in which we do the best we can.
 
Hi TES
I just feel I have to push back against this anti-Islam tirade. What were you doing in the Wahhabi Triangle? All this and Jesus too. Wow, it’s amazing.
Steve,

I agree with your point concerning the marketing job sold us over the perception of the stiff upper lipped US and UK interference in the region, highlighted by our attempts to oust the Germans and collapse the Ottoman Empire 100 years ago, or the US military's missteps in the Iranian coup d'état in the 50's. These were old world, bully pulpit bravado, which served to foment longstanding resentment. Nothing in what I have said, excuses Western arrogance. But I did not offer up a tirade. Simply citing that other nations (I can list over 70 of them) are concerned about religious extremist expansion, is not a tirade. Citing that the West is arrogant and clueless, simply in the other direction now, is not a tirade. Simply citing my direct exposure to this is not a tirade.

I trust your heart for those who are victims, so I take your criticism well. But to answer your questions about me personally, I am not a protégé of John Wayne America, so please do not paint me with that canned brush. If you must know, I was there working to help the Kingdom establish walk-in medical clinics and determine what medicines needed to be forward deployed in them, versus centrally managed - snake bite venom by type, paracetamol, hydrocodone, recombinant DNA insulin for human injection, trauma supplies, emergency trauma supplies, etc. What where and when, how why and who. There were specific people I had to meet to collect data and strike agreements.

The Khalil Gibran you cite says "Work is love made visible." Many of these projects I worked for months, pro bono - paying my own expenses as well. I could not tolerate sitting here talking about progressive oughts, as that is not the same as going and learning what must be done. Being honest when one sees the purposefully ugly; even if it is politically incorrect now to say these things.

Neither do I go around pushing Jesus if that is what you meant by that line (I am an ignostic atheist). I just am not threatened by other peoples' metaphysical choices/NDE's/meditations - I sat and prayed before a shrine to Ganesha in some Indian work and have sat for Islamic prayers often. And finally yes, I have seen some things. Simply citing the reality of what the entire world is worried about - is not a tirade. Yemen suffers now, as do 30 African nations, because of expansionist sectarian Islam. In Africa it is very common to have an $80 million mosque across the street from a hospital which looks like a motel in Dhaka Bangladesh. This is arrogance and bully pulpit, simply expressed in brick and mortar. When Christian churches exist in this dichotomy I am offended at them as well. In my view, religion is the cause, not the solution to the world's suffering. And I did not have that view before I ventured out into the world to work.

In this regard I am critical of all Abrahamic religions in particular (it is not 'phobic' - to be critical of people's evil work) - we as men are an expression of the worst of that God which we enforce. Abrahamism has found its most power-enabling fertile ground inside populations which suffer the most. Suffering is religion's best envoy - an envoy which must be cultivated and deployed in order to provide its fertile field. In this regard, the evil must be discerned from behind a veil.

And that gets us back to the subject of NDE's - I am not any form of knowledgeable on this topic and am here to learn. What comment do they imply/say about our religious fervor David? Did anyone ever self-regret over a life spent in fanatic religious belief?
 
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When you are "resisting" you are still focused on it and still on the same vibrational level
I still balk at the expression 'vibrational level'. I know we are discussing subjects where scientific precision is generally not possible, but I do think we should try our best.

Does anything vibrate, and if so, does 'level' refer to the frequency of that vibration? How do we measure frequency in a timeless realm?

I'm not trying to be pedantic, and please - anyone who uses this term, feel free to answer.

David
 
Steve,

I agree with your point concerning the marketing job sold us over the perception of the stiff upper lipped US and UK interference in the region, highlighted by our attempts to oust the Germans and collapse the Ottoman Empire 100 years ago, or the US military's missteps in the Iranian coup d'état in the 50's. These were old world, bully pulpit bravado, and fomented longstanding resentment. Nothing in what I have said, excuses Western arrogance. But I did not offer up a tirade. Simply citing that other nations (I can list over 70 of them) are concerned about religious extremist expansion, is not a tirade. Citing that the West is arrogant and clueless, simply in the other direction now, is not a tirade. Simply citing my direct exposure to this is not a tirade.

I trust your heart for those who are victims, so I take your disagreement well. But to answer your questions about me personally, I am not a protégé of John Wayne America, so please do not paint me with that canned brush. If you must know, I was there working to help the Kingdom establish walk-in medical clinics and determine what medicines needed to be forward deployed in them, versus centrally managed - snake bite venom by type, paracetamol, hydrocodone, recombinant DNA insulin for human injection, trauma supplies, emergency trauma supplies, etc. What where and when, how why and who. There were specific people I had to meet to collect data and strike agreements.

The Khalil Gibran you cite says "Work is love made visible." Many of these projects I worked for months, pro bono - paying my own expenses as well. I could not tolerate sitting here talking about progressive oughts, as that is not the same as going and learning what must be done. Being honest even when one sees the ugly. Even if it is politically incorrect now to say these things.

Neither do I go around pushing Jesus if that is what you meant by that line (I am an ignostic atheist). I just am not threatened by other peoples' metaphysical choices - I sat and prayed before a shrine to Ganesha in some Indian work and have sat for Islamic prayers often. And finally yes, I have seen some things. Simply citing the reality of what the entire world is worried about - is not a tirade. Yemen suffers now, as do 30 African nations, because of expansionist sectarian Islam. In Africa it is very common to have an $80 million mosque across the street from a hospital which looks like a motel in Dhaka Bangladesh. This is arrogance and bully pulpit, simply in brick and mortar form. When Christian churches exist in this dichotomy I am offended at them as well. In my view, religion is the cause, not the solution to the world's suffering. And I did not have that view before I ventured out into the world to work.

In this regard I am critical of all Abrahamic religions in particular - we as men are an expression of the worst of that God which we enforce.

And that gets us back to the subject of NDE's - I am not any form of knowledgeable on this topic and am here to learn. What comment do they imply/say about our religious fervor David? Did anyone ever self-regret over a life spent in fanatic religious belief?
Once again, I think that you have taken my posts more personally than I might have wanted you to. I knew that my post was not a good one, so I will take the blame for any misunderstanding. The tirade against Islam wasn’t your small effort alone, but it’s everywhere! If I were to name one religion that consistently gets bad mouthed - it’d be Islam. On this forum, on the media, in the press, my friendly neighbours, Islamophobia is rampant in the west. I think it’s deliberate. Propaganda makes us fear what we’re constantly told is against us. I have a close friend that is Iraqi - he’s now far more ‘British’ than I am!

You say that “Not one country has ever cited extreme elements of Christianity as a top concern.” Well, the American Christian Zionists are a much greater concern to me than Islam because they have much more power. How many countries are holding their tongue because of threats of trade sanctions or worse.

How many foreign military bases do the US have? Yet we’re told that Iran are the current big threat? I’m more afraid of the US than any other country.

And the ‘Jesus’ comment was not about you, TES.

It was about hypocrisy.
 
I still balk at the expression 'vibrational level'. I know we are discussing subjects where scientific precision is generally not possible, but I do think we should try our best.

Does anything vibrate, and if so, does 'level' refer to the frequency of that vibration? How do we measure frequency in a timeless realm?

I'm not trying to be pedantic, and please - anyone who uses this term, feel free to answer.

David
What doesn't vibrate? Ninety % of mass (I'm told) comes from the energy of quark/gluons zipping around. I only use vibration as a stand in for mental/emotional state. I don't have a scientific explanation for it.

As for the timelessness of the other side, that has always been difficult for me to wrap my head around, particularly around ideas like "evolving." Perhaps timeless in that realm means no decrease in order moment to moment.
 
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Wahhabism and Zionism are currently working hand in hand, I see the US as having nurtured and protected these two fanatical groups (especially Zionism) and made them much more dangerous than either of them used to be. Perhaps they were always destined to grow eventually, but we keep saying that we ‘think’ our reality, so once again, people will likely blame ‘God’, when it is to ourselves that we ought to look.

By murdering millions of innocent people, the west only has itself to blame for the situation it now finds itself in. I am constantly gob smacked at how we fail to see that our actions of the past three decades must have had a huge effect on how people across the Muslim world see things. We seem to think that we are somehow protected from harm, and that we are the good guys, they are the bad. This thinking isn’t only a small percentage of us, it’s the majority!

“Fortunately, I think, President Trump wants this stopped, which is a big reason why I support him.” ????

Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, which is much more than half the problem. So what do you see him doing that will help?

Trump —> Israel —> Zionism.
I'm quite progressive in a class sense (Sanders support), but I'm not a fan of identity politics or social engineering, and I feel a lot of that comes from the folks controlling the megaphones, staunchly globalist, corporate and pro-Israel.

Trump's election was a reaction to that, and I support his nationalist inclinations on trade. Was hoping he'd dial down the military spending and up the infrastructure outlays but he's doubled down on it.
 
Steve and Meurs,

I think President Trump has had to tread a very cautious and subtle line since getting elected, because he has so many enemies. The gas attacks were almost certainly fakes engineered by the rebels in Syria - possibly with CIA help, and he managed to give the impression that he was doing something effective while not really doing anything. Everyone was so scared that he was going to start WWIII, that nobody wanted to criticise what he had done when it turned out differently.

He hasn't fired up the war in Syria, and so far, the hasn't started a war in South America, Korea, Iran, Russia, or anywhere else! Israel is also fairly quiet (fingers crossed). I am pretty sure his strategy (some of which we obviously do not see) is to make a big noise but not start a conflict. For example, putting US warships close to Iran, makes it harder for them to risk an attack on shipping (which they threatened), which might have inevitably lead to conflict. If Bolton was commander in chief, I would be far more pessimistic.

I can't prove to you (or even myself!) that I am right, but I am cautiously optimistic that he knows what he is doing and means well.

David
 
What doesn't vibrate? Ninety % of mass (I'm told) comes from the energy of quark/gluons zipping around. I only use vibration as a stand in for mental/emotional state. I don't have a scientific explanation for it.

As for the timelessness of the other side, that has always been difficult for me to wrap my head around, particularly around ideas like "evolving." Perhaps timeless in that realm means no decrease in order moment to moment.
Well yes, but the vibration of a typical molecular bond is somewhere around 10^13 cycles per second, and if quarks and gluons actually exist, they will be vibrating at much higher frequencies!

I suspect that people aren't exactly talking about frequencies, but I'd like to get more idea what they do mean.

My hunch is that time is 2-dimensional, do that 'they' can sit and view our entire time line, while they evolve in a second time!

David
 
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