David Sunfellow, Can the Scientific Study of NDEs Reveal the Purpose of Life? |413|

#41
However, I recently watched an online video showing a young Scandinavian hiker being beheaded in Morocco, after what would have been an utterly evil ordeal. I watched this because I couldn’t believe people would actually do such things, and, as a father to a young girl, I felt I should understand the dangers that exist. The image of this young woman crying for her mother with her head half severed will haunt me forever.
I would strongly advise people not to watch stuff like that, because I am sure it can do horrible damage to the viewer without aiding the victim in any way. I think it is better to use the fact that such things have happened to inform your political views.

If you feel really troubled, it might just be worth trying to get in contact with the victim using a medium, or seek counseling of some sort.

David
 
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#42
I would strongly advise people not to watch stuff like that, because I am sure it can do horrible damage to the viewer without aiding the victim in any way. I think it is better to use the fact that such things have happened to inform your political views.

If you feel really troubled, it might just be worth trying to get in contact with the victim using a medium, or seek counseling of some sort.

David
I’m not too troubled. I’m mostly disappointed. And I would also strongly advise people not to watch stuff like that. Once was more than enough for me.

A point I was hoping to make, is that it’s easier to believe in some higher purpose whilst the evil things are only heard of and not seen. However, after you have seen, the two are much harder to reconcile.
 
#43
agreed... and I don't think Christian's have fully processed this absurdity... nothing "beyond the devil made me do it."

(BTW when did david icke go from being a shapeshifting reptilian watchdog to one of the most clear-thinking public presenters
of our time)
Thanks - that is a very good video!
Of course, watching this from Skeptiko, is a bit like watching a program about basic arithmetic, after you have studied maths as part of your university course!

However, I don't think QM is quite as powerful as he thinks - just strange!

David
 
#44
Reincarnation is another topic that needs to be examined more carefully. While most of the people in this forum probably know there is strong evidence that supports the case FOR reincarnation, it's important to know that there is equally compelling evidence that suggests reincarnation does not actually exist the way we commonly imagine it does. I have a page up on NHNE's Formula website that includes some down the rabbit hole comments from Bruce Greyson, Howard Storm, and myself:

https://the-formula.org/greyson-storm-reincarnation/
IDK you seem to be stepping past a lot of data in order to get to your point. even the"you reference from grayson doesn't really speak to the issue of reincarnation as much as it does to the reliability of all this extended consciousness testimony.

When I talk to near-death experiencers, they always say — when they start out explaining their experience – they say first words cannot explain my experience. I cannot describe it for you. And then I say, ‘that’s great, tell me all about it.’ So we force them to tell us what they experience and we know that they are not telling us what they experience; they’re putting into words things that don’t fit into words. And I think the same is true of the rebirth memories.
 
#45
Reincarnation is another topic that needs to be examined more carefully...
one of the problems with the reincarnation topic is that it triggers a lot of religious issues. may I ask:

- is yr personal christian faith compatible with the idea of reincarnation?
- are you relying on any "biblical truths" to support your position on reincarnation?
- what is your understanding regarding jesus's position on reincarnation?
 
#46
Prior to accounts of NDEs disseminating, it would have been reasonable to assume they might have told us which religion is true... rather they seem to confirm all religions are true!
this is exactly the conclusion of every nde researcher I've spoken with.

I guess that's why I always have a hard time with the christian overlay. it seems obvious were talking about a many paths scenario. it's akin to the "biological robots, meaningless universe" thing where the more interesting question is how are they able to prop up such nonsense? same here, how/why do christians cling to the primacy of jesus thing?
 
#47
Here's some writing on my experience of meditating on Hell.

The image of Hell has always loomed somewhat large in my life. From watching Bugs Bunny cartoons s a kid (Yosemite Sam went to Hell and me the Devil), to HBOs prison drama Oz, I've always been attracted to Hellish realms. I think I have a sense that there's spiritual gold to be found there.

This reached a crescendo a few years back when I engaged in a running dialogue with a fundamentalist Christian friend. She introduced me to literature critical of 'the New Age' from a Christian perspective. It was of a vastly better quality than I'd anticipated, comprising mostly of people who'd have very negative experiences around meditation or channelling (mostly channelling) which had been alleviated by calling on Jesus Christ.

I was further impressed at the theological rebuttal they had to the doctrine of Oneness. Essentially they saw it as a diabolical deception, if the Devil could convince us we are one with God through inducing a counterfeit spiritual experience, we then wouldn't think we needed the redemption of Jesus and we'd end up going to Hell. Now, I'm just amazed that someone had that thought!

I really wanted to engage with these ideas as fully as I could, so I would sit and meditate upon them. It was challenging, as if I wanted to contemplate any issue I would do so by first connecting to that place of Oneness. It was my foundation. Now however, the foundation itself was the thing I was being asked to question, but what do I stand on to do that? It's not easy.

What started to open up was a deeper sense of the fires of Hell and the presence of evil. An openness to the possibility I was deceived in everything I thought I knew by a malevolent force (I'd read Descartes Meditations when I was fifteen so I was familiar with this in principle). I meditated on this to the point that it infected my dreams, on several occasions I woke in the night to a waking dream of falling into Hell having fallen for Satan's deceptions. This was extremely scary as I thought I might actually be dying at these times (I think because I was bordering on an ego-death inherent in the expedience).

On the final occasion this happened I found myself in my bed having the feeling of being sucked into Hell. I would always fully resist this and attempt to pull myself back into fully waking consciousness (it did feel like something that was really happening). On this occasion I steadied myself enough to acknowledge that I would either face this or be running from it forever. I would take the chance that in entering into the experience I would die and actually go to Hell. I turned and faced the image fully and allowed myself to fall into it. I could see Satan on his throne and it felt like I was surrendering down at his feet.

As soon as I stopped resisting and fully embraced it the fire transformed into a classic mystical experience of an infinite ocean of love, from which I was not separate. That had been the true nature of the fire all along, my resistance to it had made it burn.

Whilst I still find Hell a deeply fruitful (and somewhat fearful) realm for contemplation, this experience did fundamentally shift my sense of hadephobia. It made meditating on Hell ultimately a positive experience.
amazing. thx so much for sharing. totally consistent with everything I've ever heard about the hierarchy of consciousness.
 
#50
I hope you all didn't pass over this. It was very generous of David to put these out freely. I urge you all to watch them no matter where you are on the sp(iritual)ectrum. If you cringe at anything too Jesusy or God'y - push through! The language used betrays something deeper going on here.

A lot of people (me included) have found the content of the book, including the videos and their transcripts, transformative. If anyone else want to watch the 30 videos that are referenced in the book, they are posted here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnvQgQAXv8D9zB_xIoH9v62f9OnewwCjr
 
#51
My only "Devil's Advocate" counter-point I would offer is, what does LOVE even mean to a solitary being of consciousness that has subdivided itself and all of its component parts are itself? (I have chided God for being an imaginative loner... I hope I don't catch flack for that one.) There are extraterrestrials that can supposedly broadcast LOVE to humans as a palliative the same way they broadcast SLEEP. Is that the same thing God is doing? Or does LOVE come with an internal personal stamp of authenticity where it can't be mimicked the same way we might substitute a chemical for a real flavor? I feel like hallucinogens contain a type of intuitive authenticity that comes with the experience that tells your brain, something about this is SO REAL... this is not just a hallucination.
 
#52
Reincarnation is another topic that needs to be examined more carefully. While most of the people in this forum probably know there is strong evidence that supports the case FOR reincarnation, it's important to know that there is equally compelling evidence that suggests reincarnation does not actually exist the way we commonly imagine it does. I have a page up on NHNE's Formula website that includes some down the rabbit hole comments from Bruce Greyson, Howard Storm, and myself:

https://the-formula.org/greyson-storm-reincarnation/
This is interesting! I haven't heard before about cases in which there would be overlap between two lives. Thanks for sharing this, David.

I personally believe that reincarnation takes place, and that there is quite solid evidence for it in Prof. Stevenson et al.'s research on children who remember past lives. However, the type of reincarnation suggested by the research cannot be a general rule for obvious reasons. It seems to me that a theosophical account of reincarnation is plausible: perhaps the most important point being that personality does not reincarnate, except for special cases. I would submit that the children who talk about their past lives are special cases. One might ask: how do I know this? Well, I don't :). Anyhow, here is a good explanation on how reincarnation is understood in theosophy: https://blavatskytheosophy.com/a-right-understanding-of-reincarnation/. Of course, I am aware that there is no scientific evidence for this interpretation.

Antti
 
#53
I hope you all didn't pass over this. It was very generous of David to put these out freely. I urge you all to watch them no matter where you are on the sp(iritual)ectrum. If you cringe at anything too Jesusy or God'y - push through! The language used betrays something deeper going on here.
agreed... super important stuff IMO... and thx for yr post.

I also agree w/ yr point about not letting the Jesus stuff get in the way. that's one of the things I found interesting about the david icke video I posted above... i.e. we've been conditioned / programmed into this forced choice thing when it comes to spirituality/religion/non-religion.

I don't have to be threatened/offended by someone's experience with jesus christ consciousness... nor do I have to run away from all the data I've compiled from studying nde science.
 
#54
There are extraterrestrials that can supposedly broadcast LOVE to humans as a palliative the same way they broadcast SLEEP. Is that the same thing God is doing? Or does LOVE come with an internal personal stamp of authenticity where it can't be mimicked the same way we might substitute a chemical for a real flavor?
I'm wondering the same. This seems like a very big / important question.

does anyone know of anyone in the spiritual community or UFO community weighed in on this question?
 
#55
Re some experiencing Jesus. I would speculate that - as has been said before - NDEers get the experience they need. Their core beliefs are not deliberately confronted unless they need to be. Some would enter a realm and meet Jesus. Others would meet other Beings in other places. I believe the next world is vast and complex beyond our understanding. I believe we will spend a very long time trying. ☺
 
#56
from: https://www.near-death.com/science/articles/ndes-ufos-and-shamans.html

And he said, There are not sins, not the way you think of them on Earth. The only thing that has any meaning here is what you think. And then he asked me a question: What is in your heart?

And in some incredible way I was enabled to look deeply inside myself, really into the core of me, into my essence, and I saw what was there was love and nothing else. My core was perfect love, loving perfection. I had complete love and acceptance for everything.

...And I wondered how on Earth I had ever forgotten anything that important
 
#58
Some people believe that our reality is analogous to a massive multiplayer online game. Because of the suffering that goes on, I sometimes wish it was like a single player game instead, with all others as non-player characters controlled by the consciousness hierarchy. That way, all suffering, except for my own, would be a hoax. It may be wishful thinking, and, of course, believing you are the only real person in the world is a bit extreme (solipsism), so I try to avoid giving it too much thought!
I've played a bit of World of Warcraft, and I've often had the exact thought. It's brought home even further when you read the life review reports of NDErs. They have the exact feel of someone realizing they played a game suboptimally, that they focused on the wrong objectives w/o realizing it.

"I have created the most beautiful character in all the realm."
"Cool, what level are you now?"
"What's a level?"

Nothing wrong with beautiful characters, but you missed out on leveling up while you were messing with your avatar. (This isn't to imply that I believe there is a universal objective for human incarnation. I believe the reasons are as varied as individuals).
 
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#59
Am I weird to feel that the word "data" for a bunch of stories is slightly off-putting. It might be accurate technically, but to me feels science-fetishy, an artifact of science's place as the dominant religion in 2019.

That said, I love the book.
Whether or not a story is categorize-able as data depends upon the mode of inference drawn from the 'story'.

If, I find a quarter on the ground - I tend to look nearby it, just to check and make sure there is not any other accidentally dropped money laying nearby. This is called a modus praesens. An anecdote to the presence is data, absolutely. I can use it to construct a variety of inductive inferences if it repeats under observation - but the key is - I am now compelled to observe (not conclude) off such anecdote modus praesens. The plural of this anecdote is data.

If, I do not find a quarter on the ground while walking to lunch today - that does not mean that no one has ever dropped any money on the ground and therefore I should never look. This 'not finding' is called a modus absens. An anecdote to the absence is not usually data. This is where we get the apothegm 'the plural of anecdote is not data'. This observation allows me to infer nothing. The only time a robust set of 'nothing' being observed, is allowable for drawing inference, is when the domain being observed is highly constrained.

See more here: The Plural of Anecdote is Data

Probably WAY more of my view than you wanted to hear Meurs, but that was a damn good post - strikes at the heart of ethics and skepticism.
 
#60
IDK you seem to be stepping past a lot of data in order to get to your point. even the"you reference from grayson doesn't really speak to the issue of reincarnation as much as it does to the reliability of all this extended consciousness testimony.

When I talk to near-death experiencers, they always say — when they start out explaining their experience – they say first words cannot explain my experience. I cannot describe it for you. And then I say, ‘that’s great, tell me all about it.’ So we force them to tell us what they experience and we know that they are not telling us what they experience; they’re putting into words things that don’t fit into words. And I think the same is true of the rebirth memories.
That's an interesting point, Alex. But I wouldn't go there. Equating remembering concrete past life experiences in this world (I'm thinking of a typical situation where a child reports a past life in which they can tell you their name, sex, how they died, who killed them, the name of their parents and siblings, the location of their previous home, etc.) is a far cry from having afterlife experiences in realms that are beyond human experience and comprehension...

Past life regressions, on the other hand, can be pretty wild...
 
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