David Sunfellow, Can the Scientific Study of NDEs Reveal the Purpose of Life? |413|

Alex

Administrator
A quick request.

If any of you decide to read my book, I would love to know what you think about it. Receiving feedback from a group of seasoned, discerning people would be helpful.

Thanks!
allow me to re-emphasize how well put together this book is. anyone can go to amazon and "look inside" to see the range of topics covered. I love that it's so much more than just another collection of nde stories... as great and inspiring as those can be this book is more.
 

Alex

Administrator
Yes, I agree that it's no coincidence and that there's something very real influencing our lives and even our conduct (so much for our supposed "free will" !!! I like to believe we have some of it, but these things show that it's pretty limited and subject to interference and manipulation) , however the nature and purpose of this "connection between the metaphysical and the physical" is obscure to me. I disagree that it's always "benign", although mostly it has been, in my case (but some syncs have been truly spooky, eg a young colleague suddenly and unexpectedly dying on a specific, very "meaningful" date for me, coinciding with the date of the violent death of a key person in my life, around which lots of syncs have constellated).
Are "they" (I don't know exactly what "they/this" may be, obviously) playing with us, like we do when we dangle a piece of string in front of a cat, while hiding our hand, so that he can't understand who's moving it? Are "they" simply reminding us that there's agency behind the veil, nothing more ("the medium is the message")? Or are at least some of these syncs leading us to some answers? If so, how come these answers are often contradictory? Are there different/conflicting agencies with different agendas behind this phenomenon? And, more importantly, why is it all so cryptic??
Of course I could also show examples of gazillions of baffling syncs here, some of them are extremely personal though. But again, the phenomenon is real for me, I have no need to prove it to others (anymore), it's what it really ultimately means that's bugging me.
wow... way too strange. I do remember that jeffrey martin found this to be a predictable part of the non symbolic consciousness process (i.e. awakening).
 
A quick request.

If any of you decide to read my book, I would love to know what you think about it. Receiving feedback from a group of seasoned, discerning people would be helpful.

Thanks!
Have your book (kindle) but have not read it yet. However I notice you start with an account from Howard Storm who has always impressed me as being very sincere with interesting things to say.
 
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I believe we are routinely penetrated by woo things and some of us know it because we are the natural mechanisms sensitive to register it - some more sensitive than others. Its not part of our materialistic discourse - but it should be part of our metaphysical discourse.
Yes, even Michael Shermer, the skeptic’s skeptic (and one of Alex's favorite guests) had a paranormal experience that shook him up. An article, written by him, appeared in Scientific American of all places:

Anomalous Events That Can Shake One’s Skepticism to the Core
 
Hi Steve. I appreciate your POV. I am not challenging him in terms of his experience, or right to say what he said. My point is that what he said can be readily converted into moral outrage. There are participants on this forum who may have been victims of terrible crimes, and to suggest that they 'assented' to that offence can be deeply confronting - and led to a rejection of the proposition because the reflex is to be repelled by it.

The idea is an important one. But if proposed by a person who has not had to grapple with the reality of assenting to trauma it can seem like its just a good idea from people whose lives haven't been through dark shit. That doesn't work these days. I have a modest entitlement to back David's assertion because I have had to face that idea myself. But I worked to provide services to young people who had been sexually molested by multiple family members and strangers. How do you think it would go down with a person so traumatised? You agreed to your father, brother and uncle raping you from aged 8 to 14?

We don't know who is reading these posts - as member or guests - and I don't want to redirect the discussion about the politics of trauma. But when a theme of this nature is proposed it must come with necessary sensitivity. I am prepared to back it from my perspective. A rape victim (of whom there are many) may not be so generous - because of how David's statement could be read.

It is absolutely necessary to acknowledge that the idea is challenge, as David did. But unlike him, I work in a field in which those sentiments can be profoundly misunderstood - and that includes this forum. The simple reality is that we live in an age when deep trauma is being acknowledged, and we must be sensitive, in the way we convey deep and important ideas, to the risk of being misinterpreted.

David expressed a powerful idea that has a deep foundation to it. Its one I support because I am familiar with that foundation. We simply need to acknowledge a duty of care to those who may not immediately find it engaging as a philosophical idea.
Michael, your reply has both clarified things for me and added to my never ending list of questions , thank you for taking the time to do so.

I see where you’re coming from, that some ideas here may be offensive to people, however I think that we can’t allow that possibility to self-censor our posts. This forum is a place where all ideas should be allowed free reign imo. I think of it as more the teachers staff room rather than the kids playground. If people are over-sensitive then this really isn’t the place they should be hanging out. Sorry if this seems harsh. It’s a sair fecht as we say in Scotland.

Possibly I am over-sensitive myself to the victim-mentality, as I think it’s out of control, with people becoming offended and crying crocodile tears at every turn. Now that definitely doesn’t mean that I’m a heartless bastard, I really don’t think that’s the case, but who knows. FWIW I cry almost daily, and not very often for myself. :)

It is a difficult concept to accept, if you are likely to become offended all I can suggest is don’t accept it, but leave it floating as one of many possibilities. It’s not an idea that I warm to, but I neither dismiss it or embrace it. It’s a category that I place many ideas in.

To be honest, I thought you were saying that David shouldn’t be giving his thoughts on things like disabilities, if he hadn’t suffered one himself. Both you and I have suffered serious ‘setbacks’, yet both of us now see them as positive, I see mine as a blessing. Perhaps I’m doing so to compensate for my loss. I have seen lots of others who see their own ‘trials’ similarly, but there are many who don’t, and who am I to judge such individuals, I know only my own path.
 
It is a deeply challenging idea, David, and while I agree with you, you haven't expressed the idea as one who evidently knows from personal experience. This matters. There's nothing worse than hearing this kind of idea from somebody who has no experiential skin in the game.
Not knowing me, or anything about me or my life experiences, that's a pretty offensive and uninformed comment. I could trot out all kinds of life experiences that provide street cred for me knowing what I am talking about (to some degree), but that's not why I am here.

So back to your first point, here's an excerpt from Dr. Laurin Bellg's book, Near Death in the ICU: Stories from Patients Near Death and Why We Should Listen to Them, that supports your first comment:

It seemed no sooner than I'd arrived there that my mother told me I couldn't stay, that I had to go back. That really upset me… My husband, he's a good man, but he's not always an easy man to live with. He's pretty hard to please, so I really didn't want to come back, quite honestly. I don't want him to know that, but it would have been so much easier to stay there where I was, with my mother. So I was not happy at all when she told me I had to go back. I was pretty sad really. I even tried pleading with her to let me stay. I told her, “It's my life, I should get to choose. I should have a say-so.”

Then she told me, “It's not that you don't get to choose. Part of you, in fact, is choosing and participating in this decision. It would be easy for you to choose to stay here, but you understand on a level you can't quite comprehend just now that there is more from your family relationships you need to experience and learn. And more they need to learn from you. When choosing is not an act of escape but an act of completion, then you will stay.”

I knew what she said was true, but in that moment, it didn't make it any easier…

41yB0xTXCjL._SY346_.jpg
 
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wow... way too strange. I do remember that jeffrey martin found this to be a predictable part of the non symbolic consciousness process (i.e. awakening).
Maybe, but awakening to what? What is the real nature of what lies "at the end of it"? We most definitely cannot rule out, (to quote Rust Cole....)


"This... This is what I'm talking about. This is what I mean when I'm talkin' about time, and death, and futility. All right, there are broader ideas at work, mainly what is owed between us as a society for our mutual illusions. Fourteen straight hours of staring at DB's, these are the things ya think of. You ever done that? You look in their eyes, even in a picture, doesn't matter if they're dead or alive, you can still read 'em. You know what you see? They welcomed it... Not at first, but... right there in the last instant. It's an unmistakable relief. See, cause they were afraid, and now they saw for the very first time how easy it was to just... let go. Yeah, they saw, in that last nanosecond, they saw... what they were. You, yourself, this whole big drama, it was never more than a jerry-rig of presumption and dumb will, and you could just let go. To finally know that you didn't have to hold on so tight. To realize that all your life - you know, all your love, all your hate, all your memories, all your pain - it was all the same thing. It was all the same dream, a dream that you had inside a locked room, a dream about being a person. And like a lot of dreams, there's a monster at the end of it."

Btw Alex, if you haven't watched True Detective Season One, you MUST watch it!


On the other hand, it could be like this (we have no way of knowing for sure!):


"In the beginning, there was only darkness, so I would say, the light is winning"
 
If we’re not meant to know, why are some people (or many) confronted with these greater reality experiences? Experiences that, it would seem, are designed to provoke lifelong questioning.

Is it just an accident when a person sees a UFO, or a ghost, or has an NDE? I don’t think so. Whatever it is, it comes for people, and it turns their world upside down.

Experiences may drift into the past, but the ‘why’ of it never stops haunting a witness.
I should have expressed myself more clearly. I'm not saying that we aren't supposed to know anything. Clearly, that's not true. A huge part of what NDEs emphasize is that we are here to learn. "Loving and learning," those are the two big things that NDE Researcher Jan Holden identified in her research. I'm saying that the system is designed so we don't know and can't remember EVERYTHING. We have to stumble our way to deeper, more full bodied awareness.
 
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David expressed a powerful idea that has a deep foundation to it. Its one I support because I am familiar with that foundation. We simply need to acknowledge a duty of care to those who may not immediately find it engaging as a philosophical idea.
Michael, I wrestle with this issue all the time, in all kinds of different forums. If you do any kind of public work, especially on the internet, you are constantly confronted with the consequences of not saying things carefully enough (I'm sure Alex can relate to this). When faced with this dilemma, it appears to me that we have two choices: shut up and not say anything for fear of saying something wrong that is going to unleash the hounds of hell on you, someone else, or the the world at large, or get out on the playing field, take risks, and try to learn how to handle the endless variety of people and strange situations that come your way, some of which are only interested in tripping you up and shutting you down. I choose option 2. That's why I'm here, trying to share and discuss IMPOSSIBLE topics. I'm also here to learn and deepen my understanding. I want to be a good guest that says everything perfectly. I'm constantly calibrating and recalibrating, but I'm fine with the fact that most of the time, I'm going to miss the mark. I'll say things poorly and need to take another run at it. From your perspective, what's wrong with this approach?
 
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I should have expressed myself my clearly. I'm not saying that we aren't supposed to know anything. Clearly, that's not true. A huge part of what NDEs emphasize is that we are here to learn. "Loving and learning," those are the two big things that NDE Researcher Jan Holden identified in her research. I'm saying that the system is designed so we don't know and can't remember everything. We have to stumble our way to deeper, more full bodied awareness.
Would you say the messages coming from the other side are quite broad, and can you infer from that that specifics are either "spoilers" that ruin the spiritual growth potential of the experience or lead folks down dogmatic or otherwise limiting paths?

Some posit that quantum wave function collapse happens when a conscious mind "puts a question" to reality, causing the possibilities to coalesce into a specific manifestation. Perhaps the other side wants to give us the wave function and not a solution.

I do my best to stay in superposition, open to numerous possibilities, while biasing my hope that what manifests eventually will be one of the good ones. I find it too easy to become identified with belief systems.
 
Would you say the messages coming from the other side are quite broad, and can you infer from that that specifics are either "spoilers" that ruin the spiritual growth potential of the experience or lead folks down dogmatic or otherwise limiting paths?

Some posit that quantum wave function collapse happens when a conscious mind "puts a question" to reality, causing the possibilities to coalesce into a specific manifestation. Perhaps the other side wants to give us the wave function and not a solution.

I do my best to stay in superposition, open to numerous possibilities, while biasing my hope that what manifests eventually will be one of the good ones. I find it too easy to become identified with belief systems.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, Meurs. Can you take another run at it?
 
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, Meurs. Can you take another run at it?
I suppose it was more of an assertion than question. :) I guess I'm just putting forth my personal take that what we can reliably glean from NDEs is a pretty small list, one that doesn't include anything conclusive about the messengers or God as a personality with intent or emotions. The list we have gives us all plenty to work on.

More generally, I don't think we'll learn much from scientific research into the extended consciousness realm. Only the broadest strokes. That isn't to say I'm not grateful for the work of researchers. Their work is vital. I just don't expect to benefit much from any conclusions. (Happy to be proven wrong or ignorant, which is why I love this forum). Just as I don't think experiencers who morph into teachers/gurus will be able to add much to the power of their original testimony, which speaks well enough on its own.
 
I suppose it was more of an assertion than question. :) I guess I'm just putting forth my personal take that what we can reliably glean from NDEs is a pretty small list, one that doesn't include anything conclusive about the messengers or God as a personality with intent or emotions. The list we have gives us all plenty to work on.

More generally, I don't think we'll learn much from scientific research into the extended consciousness realm. Only the broadest strokes. That isn't to say I'm not grateful for the work of researchers. Their work is vital. I just don't expect to benefit much from any conclusions. (Happy to be proven wrong or ignorant, which is why I love this forum). Just as I don't think experiencers who morph into teachers/gurus will be able to add much to the power of their original testimony, which speaks well enough on its own.
I've benefitted immensely, from both experiencers and researchers. They both have enriched my life immeasurably. My book, I think, is a great example of the kind of life-changing information they bring to the table.

With respect to what kind of things can we reliably glean from NDEs, my book ends with a list of 90 core truths that I have identified. These core truths are also posted on NHNE's Formula website:

Universal Truths (v2.2)

If you read this list carefully, it should become immediately obvious how accepting, understanding and integrating these core truths into our lives can change everything.

Universal-Truths-Vertical-1500x.jpg
 
Its a puzzle to me as well. Way back an inner plane teacher told me he wasn't here to tell us things, but to teach us how to think. What seems to be contradictory isn't in the end - but it can take years to get that - decades in some instances - but the other side doesn't do time, so they don't give a damn.

Its cryptic because there's really no option.

We are lucky we get that crazy attention. Dig it.
Michael, I appreciate your input although I see things somewhat differently from you - you see this stuff as being some kind of expression of love and attention. Well, what do I know. Stalkers say (and probably believe) that they love the people they are pestering :) Jokes apart, I would much prefer us to experience a different way of love (if this is love) from these "metaphysical sources", where the "lovers" express their feelings in a way that we can relate to and benefit from. Being loved in a mysterious, incomprehensible, confusing way is not the kind of love I'd like to receive. I mean, it may be fun (although as I said some syncs are spooky and downright alarming), but at the end of the day, I would prefer (and this is my wish for all sentient beings) to be on the receiving end of a kind of love which expresses itself in a sincere, open and down-to-earth way. All this mystery we were thrown into and are struggling with does not suggest to me that what lies behind the Veil is something we would like and approve of. When things are kept hidden it is because they're 'something wrong' with them.
I continue to think that "this is not about us". We are tiny cogs in a bizarre mechanism which serves a purpose that is not about us. Frankly, my best hope is that there are agencies that feel pity for us and are doing something to help.

Anyway. I thought I would share my latest strange experience involving the number 11 to give you (and anybody reading this) an idea of the kind of strangeness I experience on a regular basis.

My elderly mother, about 10/15 years ago (when my weird experiences had not started and I was a naive materialist, COMPLETELY UNINTERESTED in anything spiritual, metaphysical or paranormal, and actually thinking that it was all complete rubbish), for no specific reason, out of the blue, told me that she would have liked to re-read a book that she had read many years ago, when she was a teacher. She remembered the title and the author.The title in English would be "The Truth about Pinocchio". I'm Italian, so this is an Italian book. It was no longer in print, but I managed to find a second-hand copy of it on the Internet. However, when the book arrived she did not seem incredibly interested. I was a bit disappointed, but well.
This was, as I said, 10/15 years ago.

A few days ago I was at my mum's place and I came across this book. Because I have now been 'sensitised' to the number 11, I noticed that it features the n.11 on the cover (see photo).

Pin.jpg
So I picked it up and flicking through it I saw a page where it refers to Pinocchio as a metaphor for the soul. Intrigued, I went to the Italian wikipedia page:

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_avventure_di_Pinocchio._Storia_di_un_burattino

Screenshot 2019-06-08 at 20.36.27.png


and to my surprise I saw that under the Title "Interpretation of the Pinocchio character" the very first one is "Esoteric interpretation". According to it, Pinocchio is a mechanical creature who aspires to reconnect to his soul (Alex and his constant reference "biological robots" comes to mind :)). Put that section into google translate, if you are interested in what it says. Very intriguing and pretty detailed. Unfortunately the English wiki page does not feature any interpretation of this kind. So if I hadn't "happened" to be Italian, I wouldn't have come across this.

But there's more. The day before finding the book I had been to Venice (my mother lives not far from it). "By coincidence", I had seen a huge statue of Pinocchio in a temporary exhibition of works of art in the garden of a Palace I had "coincidentally" walked past. So I googled "Pinocchio Venice 2019 statue" to see if I could find any info about it. But I didn't find anything. However, since I had taken a picture of an intriguing "installation" in the same garden, which included a sign with the name of the author and the title (you can see it if you zoom in the pic below), I googled them to see whether it would lead me to info about the garden in question and the Pinocchio statue, too. I was extremely surprised to read the info about THIS work of art AND its author (which I would never have googled had it not been for the Pinocchio statue, and I only got interested in the Pinocchio statue because I saw it the day before bumping into this book, after many years, and noticing that it had an 11 on it.) I copy and paste it below




guardians.jpg

http://kielnhofer.at/bibliography.htm


"
Manfred Kielnhofer
Guardians of Time

The Sculptures "Guardians of Time" are created by Manfred Kielnhofer. The Austrian artist Kielnhofer is sure that mankind is watched and protected by strange characters. The previous and further existence of the human race belongs to those creatures taking care of mankind. Nobody knows where these guardians of time come from. They suddenly appear and also disappear at once, and sometimes they are around you but you cannot see them. They are always taking care of you. Some may think about a religion, but it is not. Prophets and religions come and go, but the “Guardians of Time” stay with us, independent of time or space. Independent whether your religion, your nationality, the colour of your skin.

The designer and artist Manfred Kielnhofer once had a skiing accident dangerous to life. He was bedfast for a long period and was not able to work. During the time of rehabilitation he began to think things over. What happened to me and who paid attention to me? Who rescued me? What is that good for? Why did I survive? He was asking himself. And then, suddenly, the shape of the guardians appeared in the dark, inside his brain, becoming more and more concrete. Immediately he knew: That’s the answer. These creatures have rescued him. They have taken care of him.

Since that time Manfred Kielnhofer is creating these sculptures. He named them “Guardians of Time”, in German “Waechter”. He travels around the world, showing these Sculptures and telling people not to be afraid, but also to be careful. Because if you do something that harms other people, you are watched by the “Guardians of Time” and you will be called to account.

The message says that people should never forget that they are always watched by a power that is stronger than mankind. Just lean back and have a good time, you are always sheltered. And stop dark doings, because you can never cheat the “Guardians of Time”."

"(...)These necromantic figures, based upon the ancient theme of the 'time guardian,' depict beings from another realm who, in ancient cultures and civilisations, would have been deemed responsible for paranormal goings-on"
===========

What should one make of all this? Is this all just coincidence, or is it 'something' giving me hints about "the Truth"? Or is something playing with me, knowing that I am on a quest to understand what it is all about? Or is someone trying to mislead me into believing something which they want me to believe? It's impossible to know for sure. I am not going to take this all at face value just because I came across it via an 11-related synchronicity. By that I mean that if the number 11 had not pestered me for years, I would not have looked at that book, which my mother, for some reason unknown to me (and, seeing how we can be manipulated, probably unknown to her as well) showed a keen interest for years ago.
 
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I have seen quotes like that before, and they seem to mean that nobody is responsible for anything they do, because it is all a game played out between victims and perpetrators on a larger stage. Do you believe that?

More generally, once you drop the materialist view of life, we tend to think that our life/lives are for a purpose. It puzzles me what the purpose really is. I mean if the earth is a training ground for something else - what is it? Obviously you may just say you don't know!

David

That is a surprising tale. Here is a person who is clearly split between two worlds. How would a more intelligent system guide us? You would first have to be cracked open. You didn't realize the context because how else could you learn foryourself?

I only half mean it, but isn't it true if god existed it would answer any question we had? But we wouldn't want such a system doing everything for us. And how can it answer without hiding from us? I mean if a genie appears and fixes things, that cannot work. As for suffering...well that is normal is it not but its as short lived as our lives.

I would prefer a planet where immortality is more obvious.
 
We're not supposed to be able to remember who we are, where we are really from, and how everything works. That's a foundational rule of the game. Near-death experiencers regularly report becoming omniscient and while in that exalted state, knowing how everything works. .
Can you recall the name of a woman who remembered a geometric pattern from her nde and then had a paper published in a journal of mathematics with herself as a co-author?

Or in general what is an example of scientific knowledge, if any, that has been returned?

Do you think Raymond Moody's analysis is interesting with his use of logic and nonsense?

Their are a lot of reasons to take nde's seriously but not literally. We don't understand.
 
A quick request.

If any of you decide to read my book, I would love to know what you think about it. Receiving feedback from a group of seasoned, discerning people would be helpful.

Thanks!
David,
I ordered your book "Love the person you
A quick request.

If any of you decide to read my book, I would love to know what you think about it. Receiving feedback from a group of seasoned, discerning people would be helpful.

Thanks!
I just ordered your book "Love the person you are with". It will arrive within a month or so. I will gladly give my thoughts on it.

Antti
 
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