Dean Radin's Double Slit Experiments

I don't think they believe that. What they probably do believe is that an arbitrarily long chain of mechanisms and time delays before the state is collapsed is simply not going to work. If you toss in seven mechanisms and a year before anyone looks at the results, it's a bit bizarre to insist that everything was in superposition all that time.

Consider Shimon Malin's scenario:

"Suppose a measurement of an electron's spin component along some direction is being measured. The result can either be "up" or "down". The result of the measurement is automatically communicated to a printer that can either print "up" or "down". If human consciousness is what causes the collapse to the observed state, then the collapse would only occur when someone read the printout, and not before. Now suppose that the printer has just enough ink to print "up", and not enough ink to print "down". Furthermore, if the printer runs out of ink, a bell sounds in a secretary's office. If the secretary hears the bell, a collapse to "down" has clearly occurred before the bell sounded. If the secretary does not hear the bell, a collapse to "up" must have occurred--and no human interaction was necessary at all."

It's an interesting exercise to try to explain how that scenario would work if consciousness is necessary for collapse. In particular, we have to consider whether active consciousness is required, or whether passive consciousness or nonconsciousness will do the trick.

~~ Paul
Sorry, but you need to remove the secretary from the picture, not simply add another step before consciousness rears its ugly head. But it is interesting to postulate an increasingly elaborate Rube-Goldberg set-up where two entirely different worlds become the end result of "spin up" or "spin down" - the world we live in is Game of Thrones or The Jetsons, and we don't yet know which it is.

Linda
 
Somebody linked to a paper a long way back (Miguel? Steve?) about a technique used to partially observe a state without affecting it. I'll try to find it if nobody remembers what I'm talking about (between flights at the moment).

Linda
 
But that's the von Neumann interpretation, and that's what this absolutely brilliant mathematician, who laid down the foundations of quantum mechanical formalism, said was a consequence of the mathematics. It doesn't matter if you or the authors feel that this would be bizarre, because the entire history of quantum theory has been bizarre mathematical predictions and every single one of them so far has been experimentally confirmed. Everything from the EPR paradox, to the quantum Zeno effect, to quantum teleportation, delayed choice, delayed choice quantum eraser, etc. The bottom line is they did not falsify this interpretation.
A large pile of bizarreness does not warrant arbitrary bizarreness. Most physicists do not adhere to the consciousness-causes-collapse interpretation, including, eventually, Wigner. Here is a paper that claims it has been falsified and proposes another experiment to test it:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.2404

It's pretty obvious from this scenario that there is a clear human interaction (with the secretary).

It's pretty obvious that the secretary's conscious perception is what made any of that happen (within the von Neumann interpretation). She is the end of the von Neumann Chain.
You need to read the scenario more carefully. If the secretary hears the bell, then the measurement was "down." If the secretary does not hear the bell, then the measurement was "up." In the second case there was no interaction at all. The state must have collapsed prior to the printing in order to give the secretary the chance of collapsing the state. A solution might be that everything is still superposed even after the secretary hears the bell, since there is one path on which she does not hear it.

It may be that consciousness-causes-collapse is still on the table. If so, adherents need to figure out what sort of consciousness is required to stand outside QM and collapse wavefunctions. It's a nasty form of interaction dualism.

"[T]he evolution of conscious life on this planet is due to appropriate mutations having taken place at various times. These, presumably, are quantum events, so they would exist only in linearly superposed form until they finally led to the evolution of a conscious being—whose very existence depends on all the right mutations having 'actually' taken place!"
---Roger Penrose
 
Sorry, but you need to remove the secretary from the picture, not simply add another step before consciousness rears its ugly head. But it is interesting to postulate an increasingly elaborate Rube-Goldberg set-up where two entirely different worlds become the end result of "spin up" or "spin down" - the world we live in is Game of Thrones or The Jetsons, and we don't yet know which it is.
See my previous post. The secretary's consciousness is only involved on one path.
  • If the secretary hears the bell, then the secretary causes the collapse.
  • If the secretary does not hear the bell, then there is no collapse.
But collapse is required for the if choice to be made.

~~ Paul
 
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A large pile of bizarreness does not warrant arbitrary bizarreness. Most physicists do not adhere to the consciousness-causes-collapse interpretation, including, eventually, Wigner.

Arbitrary bizarreness? Von Neumann's claim is that it is needed by the mathematics. That is hardly arbitrary.

Do you even know what interpretation most physicists adhere to? I'll give you a hint:

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/17/the-most-embarrassing-graph-in-modern-physics/

It's the Copenhagen interpretation. And what does the Copenhagen interpretation say about collapse? Pretty much nothing! The von Neumann interpretation is the logical and ontological extension of the Copenhagen interpretation. Most physicists don't care enough to go into this since they can run their experiments without dealing with this extra part. Most quantum physicists are pretty instrumentalist about this.

And just because most don't believe in conscious collapse doesn't mean that it's wrong! Do you notice that only 9% believe in some sort of objective collapse model? I know there are folks working on the GRW interpretation, and what if that ends up being correct? Well using your logic I guess it won't since most don't believe in it!

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Here is a paper that claims it has been falsified and proposes another experiment to test it:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.2404

Read my previous post on this paper. This does not falsify the von Neumann interpretation at all.


Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
You need to read the scenario more carefully. If the secretary hears the bell, then the measurement was "down." If the secretary does not hear the bell, then the measurement was "up." In the second case there was no interaction at all. The state must have collapsed prior to the printing in order to give the secretary the chance of collapsing the state. A solution might be that everything is still superposed even after the secretary hears the bell, since there is one path on which she does not hear it.

Apparently you did not read the paper you just linked to:

...in experiments
similar to that proposed here, if “which-path” information
was in principle obtainable
, then even though no
actual attempt was made to extract this information (i.e.,
to measure it), no interference pattern was found.
In other set of experiments (Eichmann et al., 1993; Durr
et al., 1998), “which-path” information was measured
but was not recorded by any macroscopic device (for
example, this information was stored only in the state
of single atom or photon) and, therefore, was not accessible
to a conscious observer.

The secretary is interacting with the system in this way. She doesn't have to directly hear the bell in order to interact with the system. I go into more detail in my previous post on this paper about how the end conscious observation creates the consistent past histories under the von Neumann interpretation.


Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
It may be that consciousness-causes-collapse is still on the table. If so, adherents need to figure out what sort of consciousness is required to stand outside QM and collapse wavefunctions. It's a nasty form of interaction dualism.

No, it's not a form of interactive dualism. It can also be a form of what Chalmers would call "Type F Monism." In fact, in another area of science, Giulio Tononi's Integrated Information Theory of consciousness posits that consciousness is fundamental, and this theory is actually philosophically incompatible with dualism, and is compatible with the Type F monism (and a type of materialism, but I think if combined with the von Neumann interpretation it is then only compatible with type F monism).

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
"[T]he evolution of conscious life on this planet is due to appropriate mutations having taken place at various times. These, presumably, are quantum events, so they would exist only in linearly superposed form until they finally led to the evolution of a conscious being—whose very existence depends on all the right mutations having 'actually' taken place!"
---Roger Penrose

You're quoting Roger Penrose, whom I'm sure you know is a proponent of the Penrose Objective Reduction model, which is a type of objective collapse model. In the survey I linked to earlier, only 9% said they believe in such a model, and if you notice, the objective collapse theory also includes the GRW theories, which are actually more popular than Penrose's objective reduction. So by your logic that "Most physicists do not adhere to the" objective reduction interpretation, then it must not be true.

Well of course this isn't true, but this entangled hierarchy collapse paradox is really the only paradox that conscious collapse model contains, however there are ideas regarding this. One is that there is simply an entangled hierarchy, or a "dependent co-arising" of the quantum system and the observation. This could be possible if we take the ontological position that both the wavefunction and the "particle" do not exist. In the Copenhagen interpretation, the implied ontological status is that the wavefunction is "unreal" and the particle is "real." If the substratum of consciousness has the ontological status of existing, then both the wavefunction and the particle do not have inherent existence, and in which case, there is no problem of something being created, but rather than one of the quantum possibilities is "experienced" by consciousness, which appears as a dependent co-arising.

The other possibility would be that some type of pre-cognition-like effect is going on, where the future affects the present (whether through teleology or some sort of backwards interaction). In this case, the present wavefunction is collapsed by the future existence of the human observer (in this case).

There is also an implicit assumption of what constitutes a conscious being, which could be very wrong. Integrated Information Theory could have it that much more simple systems than us could be conscious, and perhaps systems such as cells or colonies of cells could have been what first caused collapse, not human observers.

But contrast this to objective collapse models such as Penrose's, which doesn't even hold up to experimental evidence like the EPR paradox. And how would fit experiments using quantum teleportation where the quantum information of the state vector of a photon is teleported many kilometers instantly? It doesn't fit with the Wheeler delayed-choice type of experiments, either. I would rather take an interpretation that at least fits all the experimental data we have.
 
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See my previous post. The secretary's consciousness is only involved on one path.
  • If the secretary hears the bell, then the secretary causes the collapse.
  • If the secretary does not hear the bell, then there is no collapse.
But collapse is required for the if choice to be made.

~~ Paul

In the von Neumann interpretation, the conscious observation creates the consistent history. Who didn't hear the bell? The secretary.

In the paper you linked to, they described different scenarios where which-path information is obtained without directly interacting with the system. This is a similar situation. By not hearing the bell, the secretary gained information as to what occurred.
 
Arbitrary bizarreness? Von Neumann's claim is that it is needed by the mathematics. That is hardly arbitrary.

Do you even know what interpretation most physicists adhere to? I'll give you a hint:

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/17/the-most-embarrassing-graph-in-modern-physics/

It's the Copenhagen interpretation. And what does the Copenhagen interpretation say about collapse? Pretty much nothing! The von Neumann interpretation is the logical and ontological extension of the Copenhagen interpretation. Most physicists don't care enough to go into this since they can run their experiments without dealing with this extra part. Most quantum physicists are pretty instrumentalist about this.
Yes, many physicists say "shut up and calculate." Seems reasonable to me until such time as experiements can differentiate the various interpretations. Von Neumann's claim doesn't appear to convince most physicists.

And just because most don't believe in conscious collapse doesn't mean that it's wrong! Do you notice that only 9% believe in some sort of objective collapse model? I know there are folks working on the GRW interpretation, and what if that ends up being correct? Well using your logic I guess it won't since most don't believe in it!
Where did I use any argument that appeals to popularity? Of course the truth is not dependent on physicists current beliefs.

The secretary is interacting with the system in this way. She doesn't have to directly hear the bell in order to interact with the system. I go into more detail in my previous post on this paper about how the end conscious observation creates the consistent past histories under the von Neumann interpretation.
Now I'm confused. The article says that if which-path information is obtainable in principle, then the wavefunction collapses. How is consciousness involved?

So if you think the secretary is interacting with the system even though she is not conscious of it, then consciousness is not what causes the collapse. Or do you think the system remains superposed in that scenario?

~~ Paul
 
In the von Neumann interpretation, the conscious observation creates the consistent history. Who didn't hear the bell? The secretary.

In the paper you linked to, they described different scenarios where which-path information is obtained without directly interacting with the system. This is a similar situation. By not hearing the bell, the secretary gained information as to what occurred.
Only if she was told to listen for the bell in a given timeframe. If she didn't know about the experiment at all, then what information did she gain?

If I'm collapsing wavefunctions all the time, even when I don't know what's going on and don't acquire any sensory input and so am not conscious of anything, then all wavefunctions are collapsed at all times.

~~ Paul
 
Yes, many physicists say "shut up and calculate." Seems reasonable to me until such time as experiements can differentiate the various interpretations. Von Neumann's claim doesn't appear to convince most physicists.

No one's claims about quantum theory has convinced quantum physicists in general, which you can see from the poll that I linked to. Dean Radin is at least attempting quantum mechanical experiments in which consciousness may be found to play a role, but is being told that "it isn't needed" when none of the physicists have it figured out, either! RetroPK experiments are also another category, which if done on a quantum experiment such as a double slit, would very strongly support the von Neumann interpretation.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Where did I use any argument that appeals to popularity? Of course the truth is not dependent on physicists current beliefs.

I agree that what we will end up discovering to be true is not dependent on current beliefs, but then I am not sure why you made this statement in the particular context that you did:

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
A large pile of bizarreness does not warrant arbitrary bizarreness. Most physicists do not adhere to the consciousness-causes-collapse interpretation, including, eventually, Wigner.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Now I'm confused. The article says that if which-path information is obtainable in principle, then the wavefunction collapses. How is consciousness involved?

Consciousness makes the end conscious observation which collapses the von Neumann chain into a consistent history. All science is done within consciousness; you cannot practice science without involving consciousness.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
So if you think the secretary is interacting with the system even though she is not conscious of it, then consciousness is not what causes the collapse. Or do you think the system remains superposed in that scenario?

~~ Paul

If she knows to listen for the bell and it doesn't sound (assuming that the experiment didn't just malfunction), then she has gained information about the quantum system, which collapses the wavefunction. if she has no clue about any of it and never hears the bell, then she has not gained information and the experiment would remain in superposition until she, or someone else, went to observe it.
 
Only if she was told to listen for the bell in a given timeframe. If she didn't know about the experiment at all, then what information did she gain?

Then it remains in superposition until she or someone else observes the results of the experiment.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
If I'm collapsing wavefunctions all the time, even when I don't know what's going on and don't acquire any sensory input and so am not conscious of anything, then all wavefunctions are collapsed at all times.

~~ Paul

There has to be an interaction of some sort that involves exchange of information. If no information exchanges, then it remains in superposition.
 
What I find very odd is that scientists of various backgrounds seem to basically laugh at attempting to use quantum mechanics to explain psi phenomena. What should be used, geography? Meteorology? Or perhaps entomology?

If quantum theory is our most fundamental theory of what the world is like, then why wouldn't one attempt to use quantum theory to explain an apparent phenomena that cannot be explained in terms of classical theory?

Seth Lloyd said in his talk on Quantum Life that "...we don't know the actual mechanism. But what is going on is there are forms of behavior that we observe in animals, in birds, in animals, and even in human beings that cannot be explained by any other known mechanism other than quantum mechanics." So then they attempt explanations using quantum theory, which just makes sense.

While I said that I find it odd, I have to say that I find it odd since we have historical examples of this sort of thing happening over and over and we should know better. Statistics was resisted from biology in 1900, an more recently, people literally laughed at the idea of photosynthesis being quantum mechanical in nature, but now of course with quantum biology the laughing has stopped and our knowledge is increasing tremendously. More and more things are being found to be much more quantum in nature than we thought, which frankly makes sense since classical theory is only an approximation and quantum theory is a more fundamental theory as to the nature of the world in which we live.
 
Consciousness makes the end conscious observation which collapses the von Neumann chain into a consistent history. All science is done within consciousness; you cannot practice science without involving consciousness.
I agree, but that doesn't mean that nature makes a special case out of it. Collapse might be caused by events that have nothing to do with consciousness. Meanwhile, I still don't get it. If which-way information is available in principle, then the wavefunction collapses even without anyone collecting or observing that information.

If she knows to listen for the bell and it doesn't sound (assuming that the experiment didn't just malfunction), then she has gained information about the quantum system, which collapses the wavefunction. if she has no clue about any of it and never hears the bell, then she has not gained information and the experiment would remain in superposition until she, or someone else, went to observe it.
Except that the other option is that the secretary does hear the bell. But that can't be what is collapsing the wavefunction, because it's not the only option. Remember the choices:
  • If the secretary hears the bell, then the secretary causes the collapse.
  • If the secretary does not hear the bell, then there is no collapse.
Notice the "If." The system can't evolve past the secretary choice point without first collapsing to determine the choice. But surely it doesn't remain suspended at the choice point. So either the printer collapses the wavefunction or the entire system remains in superposition until some later consciousness-related event occurs.
 
I agree, but that doesn't mean that nature makes a special case out of it. Collapse might be caused by events that have nothing to do with consciousness. Meanwhile, I still don't get it. If which-way information is available in principle, then the wavefunction collapses even without anyone collecting or observing that information.

If a mechanism is found that demonstrates collapse, then it would falsify the von Neumann interpretation.

Available to whom? If no one ever observed the experiment in which the information was available in principle, then nothing would have ever happened. We know this is not the case since someone must have observed it in order to publish a paper on it. The conscious observation of the outcome is what collapses the wavefunction and creates a consistent history that led up to the outcome. Nothing ever "happened" in some chronological way that we experience in our every day life. The history is created by the observation.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Except that the other option is that the secretary does hear the bell. But that can't be what is collapsing the wavefunction, because it's not the only option. Remember the choices:
  • If the secretary hears the bell, then the secretary causes the collapse.
  • If the secretary does not hear the bell, then there is no collapse.
Notice the "If." The system can't evolve past the secretary choice point without first collapsing to determine the choice. But surely it doesn't remain suspended at the choice point. So either the printer collapses the wavefunction or the entire system remains in superposition until some later consciousness-related event occurs.

Perhaps I am wrong about the part on not hearing the bell, since the more I think about it, I can imagine that perhaps the system malfunctions, so there could be other reasons for not hearing the bell. In this case, it would remain in superposition until someone observed it.
 
What I find very odd is that scientists of various backgrounds seem to basically laugh at attempting to use quantum mechanics to explain psi phenomena. What should be used, geography? Meteorology? Or perhaps entomology?

If quantum theory is our most fundamental theory of what the world is like, then why wouldn't one attempt to use quantum theory to explain an apparent phenomena that cannot be explained in terms of classical theory?

By all means, explain psi with QM. That involves doing the math. Until then, the project runs the risk of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

For example, you have to do the math to show that information can, in fact, be transferred between entangled particles. You have to show how remote objects become entangled, especially when one object doesn't know the location of the other. You have to find the mechanisms in the brain that do this. You have to show how a person can force the collapse to specific states instead of random ones and still get the correlation at the other particle. So, you have to show that poking an entangled particle does not necessarily reduce or destroy the entanglement.

It's not just finding out how photosynthesis uses QM. It's inventing new and conflicting QM.

~~ Paul
 
By all means, explain psi with QM. That involves doing the math. Until then, the project runs the risk of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

For example, you have to do the math to show that information can, in fact, be transferred between entangled particles. You have to show how remote objects become entangled, especially when one object doesn't know the location of the other. You have to find the mechanisms in the brain that do this. You have to show how a person can force the collapse to specific states instead of random ones and still get the correlation at the other particle. So, you have to show that poking an entangled particle does not necessarily reduce or destroy the entanglement.

It's not just finding out how photosynthesis uses QM. It's inventing new and conflicting QM.

~~ Paul

What conflicts with quantum mechanics? Please tell me what specific principles and laws.
 
What I find very odd is that scientists of various backgrounds seem to basically laugh at attempting to use quantum mechanics to explain psi phenomena. What should be used, geography? Meteorology? Or perhaps entomology?

If quantum theory is our most fundamental theory of what the world is like, then why wouldn't one attempt to use quantum theory to explain an apparent phenomena that cannot be explained in terms of classical theory?

I think what gets derided is vague appeals to quantum mechanics as explanations. Now, if someone were to work out some quantum mechanical calculations that allowed for accurate prediction of psi phenomena that would be a different story!

(edit: I see Paul was thinking the same thing!)
 
Available to whom? If no one ever observed the experiment in which the information was available in principle, then nothing would have ever happened. We know this is not the case since someone must have observed it in order to publish a paper on it. The conscious observation of the outcome is what collapses the wavefunction and creates a consistent history that led up to the outcome. Nothing ever "happened" in some chronological way that we experience in our every day life. The history is created by the observation.
I haven't read all the crazy QM experiments in awhile. I'll have to do that.

Perhaps I am wrong about the part on not hearing the bell, since the more I think about it, I can imagine that perhaps the system malfunctions, so there could be other reasons for not hearing the bell. In this case, it would remain in superposition until someone observed it.
Except that one of the possibilities is for the secretary to hear the bell and then supposedly collapse the system. Yet how does the hear/not hear bifurcation happen without the printer collapsing the system first? One path has collapse and the other does not. I think the entire thing has to remaining superposed, even if the secretary hears the bell. Or the printer collapses the system.

I love this stuff.

~~ Paul
 
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