DEATH during MRI Scans: What do the Scans show?

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by J-MAN, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. J-MAN

    J-MAN New

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    Hello, everyone. I'm a frequent reader of these forums and post once in a while. But I'm in no way (not even close) to you guys in terms of my knowledge of all this stuff.

    So I apologize if my question seems "off-the-wall" or anything. But this is something I've always wondered about.

    OK. It's my understanding that studies such as Sam Parnia's and others have used EEG readings to look at what was happening in the brain during cardiac arrest, brain death, etc.

    But what about MRI's? I'm sure there are instances when someone has suddenly died in the middle of an MRI Scan. So what then do these MRI scans show? Anything interesting or compelling? I thought one of the criticisms of using EEG studies was that critics claim there may be brain activity going on that the EEGs can't detect. So with that being said, wouldn't an MRI scan during death be able to see DEEPER into the brain?

    Comments? Opinions? Thanks.
     
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  2. steve001

    steve001 Member

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    Yes it would. EEGs can only measure to a depth of not greater than 5mm's or so as I recall. Have you ever been in a hospital or hospice setting where a person is terminal? The point I'm making is it's not practical for a number of reasons.
     
  3. People have NDE's when they are not near death. And people having NDEs sometimes perceive things they could not perceive with their normal senses even if they were conscious. Sometimes multiple people near death share the same NDE. Sometimes caretakers share the NDE of the patient. The issue of residual brain activity is besides the point. It is a distraction that materialists cling to because they don't want to talk about the other more convincing forms of evidence.
     
  4. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    It's curious how materialists just refuse to talk about Shared Death Experiences, I suppose, because they completely destroy the "hallucination" explanations. I've published similar posts on this forum numerous times, so far, no materialist took up the challenge explain them.
     
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  5. steve001

    steve001 Member

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    Perhaps there aren't any self identified materialists here. What do you expect when no one has first hand experience with any particular "shared death experience".
     
  6. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I don't think it's happened yet?

    At least I've not seen any papers published on it? If somebody went into cardiac arrest inside a fMRI machine, I'd guess the first response would be to get them out, and try to save them. Which would bugger up any experimental data. Leaving them in there to die whilst you continued to gather date would be - I guess- highly unethical. Although MRI would be useless for investigation, and fMRI would probably be useless in cardiac arrest too.

    The most interesting one might be cardiac arrest during MEG using SQUID's, but I guess your head would move, and they would intervene to try and save you, buggering up any data again. There is a lot of work going on to develop smaller optically-pumped magnetometers to replace/compliment huge supercooled SQUID's, these have been shown to be sensitive enough to pickup magnetic fields in the picotesla (pT) range. The problem is noise, movement, and just how weak these fields are. Look here for an idea of orders of magnitude of the magnetic field. We just don't have the technology at present, even if we knew what to look for, the brain is millions and millions of years ahead of us.

    I guess these sorts of studies will appear in time in rodents etc. But Borjigin's work to look at cardiac arrest in rodents using invasive EEG (iEEG) is really the first scientific study of any quality to look directly at this area, and that study definitely found interesting electrical activity upto 30 secs (I think) in the Cortex. She wasn't looking any deeper. But what we're really looking for is magnetic field effect (that's where it's at), and we're looking for effects so weak that they are really close to, and into the quantum realm. At that level where do you go...?
     
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  7. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I don't think residual brain activity is a distraction, it's dead important (excuse the pun), they are slowly working their way towards hyperweak biological field theories. No one knows just how sensitive the brain is to external fields in the absence of it's own internally generated field, it's coming, just look at the theory and letters I've posted today.
     
  8. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    They are loops... as far as I'm concerned. Dying patients brain loses EM field power. Visitor entrains dying patient's brain with their brains own EM field. Visitor and Dying patients brains therefore become more coherent. Visitor and dying patient share an experience via coherence.
     
  9. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    Uniformity of the experience - light, tunnel, deceased relatives, sense of peace and inefable love etc, demonstrate something more.
     
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  10. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I have no doubt that it does, but I'd like to find some way of understanding at this level how it comes about. Then apply that understanding to the rest of nature, with the belief that such understanding might change the world of the living - for the better.
     
  11. sbu

    sbu Member

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    Have there been any well-designed propspective studies in this phenomena? No - just people posting their own ideas on NDERF etc. Nothing to explain then.
     
  12. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    Really? Haven't read anything by Peter and Elizabeth Fenwick on the issue, or Moody's book dedicated to it? OK. I thought so.
     
  13. sbu

    sbu Member

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    I'm well aware about those books. There's also books about ghosts and UFOs one can dig into. I was asking - are there any well-designed prospective studys (read higher quality of evidence) to back these claims up?
     
  14. Enrique Vargas

    Enrique Vargas Member

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    Lololol!!! Naaaa, you have no idea what you are talikg about, havent read neither Fenwick no Moody. Nada. Zip :D :D :D
     
  15. sbu

    sbu Member

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    Well it was you who was curious why skeptics don't talk about shared near death experiences. I gave you the answer. Good luck with your ghost stories.
     
  16. sbu

    sbu Member

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    Why even bother with NDEs? There's also Michael Newton (and others) who has written detailed accounts about everything that happens between this life and the next.
     
  17. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

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    There shouldn't be an answer to this, there should be informed debate. What made you join Skeptiko? Why must you assume experiencers are liars just because what they say doesn't suit you?
     
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  18. sbu

    sbu Member

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    Please, I'm not accusing anyone of lying. Surely we can agree there are different standards of evidence? Or is everything that bears Moody's name a ontological truth?
     
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  19. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

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    Then why did you call them ghost stories?
     
  20. sbu

    sbu Member

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    Well, I think the 'solidness' of the shared NDE evidence is on par with the evidence for ghosts (which may or may not exists). I however suspect a lot of proponents would find it ridiculous to compare something that bears Moody or Fenwick's name with 'ghost' stories simply due to authority bias. Certainly Enrique's last post is a great example of this bias. Maybe I should mention that personally I'm on the fence regarding what to read into the 'standard' NDE, They are certainly intriguing - that's why I follow these forums. Not to troll anybody. Enrique asked a question - I answered.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017

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