Debate on British morning TV between Psychic and Magician

It's interesting you lean more towards post-mortem survival actually, I never really got the sense you had come down on one side of the fence, even if with one foot?

EDIT: Sorry SSP, I wanted to ask a question a while back but couldn't find your post. You mentioned somewhere something about "the more people who see my avatar icon in psychedelic/altered states...." Do you recall? I just wanted to ask what you meant by that? Not sure if you read my post where I mentioned when I took DMT first or second time, I literally saw the picture of your Avatar but as if in real life, kind of growing out of the ground! Now that what at a point where I was reading a lot of your output on this forum, and really appreciating it deeply......but afterwards I also noticed somebody on the DMT Nexus forums, which I had been reading for days before I took it, also had the exact same avatar, and I had read several of their posts.

I found it really interesting why you made that comment now? Is there a lot of people seeing that exact image?!

Well my feeling about post-mortem survival is more intuitive, intellectually I'm agnostic.

Ah I do remember making the comment - I wasn't actually thinking of the specific image in my avatar, just that generally there sees to be a commonality to visions of the Trickster when someone is taking DMT. I'm curious what happens when DMT/Ayahuasca is utilized along with other psychedelics for therapeutic purposes in the Western World and this commonality becomes widely known.
 
Well my feeling about post-mortem survival is more intuitive, intellectually I'm agnostic.Imo, there is indeed & without doubt a "veil". And that it not only is meant to be there, but that for all our human endevours are proving anything "beyond" it, whether by scientific or philosophical approaches, that it simply will never be done.

It is only in more recent years that I have come to what I consider a far more insightful understanding of what is happening here, and one that explains my own numerous "paranormal" experiences, at least to my own satisfaction.

Unfortunately, I've gotta go now so I haven't had the chance to explain what that is, and why I believe there may be a "veil", and indeed how it may be possible to relatively experience a lot of "paranormal" phenomena by understanding the conditions of that "veil", which is what my original intent was :( Maybe next time!!
.=

I'd be interested in hearing more about this - in particular, what are the reason(s) for which you believe the veil "is meant to be there" and why you believe that we'll never be able to prove anything "beyond it" (I think you are very probably right but I am interested in your thoughts about all this, thank you in advance).
 
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I'd be interested in hearing more about this - in particular, what are the reason(s) for which you believe the veil "is meant to be there" and why you believe that we'll never be able to prove anything "beyond it" (I think you are very probably right but I am interested in your thoughts about all this, thank you in advance).

Manjit wrote about the veil, yet for some reason I'm quoted as having done so - likely due to forum error. Trippy though that it's the other Indian guy the software got confused with haha.
 
Hi Hypermagda, I think that was my post. I was meaning to finish that thought, but I had to go and I'd run out of steam on that thought! I was meant to be somewhere 2 hours ago, I've been online all morning - so I'll complete the thought quickly and haphazardly haha.

First of all, I would say Nicole's comment above:

Just a cosmic game of hide and seek maybe

Is a most wonderful & succint summarisation of my thoughts. I will only butcher it by rambling on and on about it ;)

There are 2 perspectives, imo, from the individual pov & the "system's" pov.

From the individual level, I think the more you are able to get the sense of "ego" out of the way, the more these "paranormal" experiences occur. This is an incredibly simplistic reduction of an incredibly complex dynamic/process. By losing the "ego", I would mean one has absolutely no concern for the benefit and desires for the individual body-mind organism. No "laws of attraction" type desires, no wanting to be able to do this or that to impress other people, become known, to feel powerful, to change the world etc etc If one's only desire is pure unadulturated desire to know the "truth", the "divine" or whatever, and one has no desire to advertise any insights or revelations or experiences for the purpose of inflating their ego or i-dentity (includes ideas of changing the world by shattering the current paradigms etc), then I believe weird shit can happen quite frequenty, and can become like water of a duck's back....because one is not even really concerned or impressed by them, one is more concerned with the underlying truth or nature of reality behind them, and on an intensely personal level, not for worldly display or purposes.

I would always recommend an open-minded sceptic as a very quick and simple experiment, try doing a sigil magick ritual, but request something will be a) of absolutely no benefit whatsoever to you on any level, utterly useless and inconsequential, b) something so utterly unlikely, so absurd, that if it does work (set a short time frame, something like 24 hours), that it will unmistakably show you the universe is a very weird place, and c) have no intention of ever telling anyone of the results.

And imo, this is just a tip of a deep & strange iceberg.

In my posts I am completely open and honest about my experiences, but they are all from 10+ years ago, when I was a different person :)

From the "system" level, I feel the human experience is a very unique one, and the evolution of history and humankind appears to me to be the manifestation of a fine balance between materialism and spirituality/consciousness-focus.

If there was incontrovertible proof that this material world wasn't the only one, and that consciousness is not tied to these bodies of clay, then that would completely disturb the balance of human existence, as it currently is, and would then have to wonder......(if one believes in many of these "soul" based narratives).....what was/is the point of all those centuries of ignorance, of increasing "descent" into materiality, if we're only going to completely upturn that, and the entire evolution of humankind, now? (don't know if that made sense, rushing!) Of course, things can get incredibly complex about where this "evolution" is taking us, as authors such as Gary Lachman write, and perhaps we ARE meant to evolve to the point where we know our "true divine" origins or what not? I just don't think so. If any of this is true, then the universe (material & non-material) must be vast & incomprehensible. I'm sure, if that were true, there would be realities with beings completely aware of their divine nature or what not. I don't see earth as being one of those places. This may be like a juvenile correction centre haha!

Anyway, Hypermagda, what are your own thoughts on this then? I always love to hear the opinions of others, once we've all kind of got to the foot of the same mountain?

Cheers!
 
Manjit wrote about the veil, yet for some reason I'm quoted as having done so - likely due to forum error. Trippy though that it's the other Indian guy the software got confused with haha.
I'm delighted there was a glitch (although probably I'm the one to blame, for inadvertently messing with the "quoted text" that I wanted to appear at the top of my post) because your opinion about this subject (why is there a "veil" and why it would appear to be designed so as to make it impossible to obtain the type of data which would allow a proper "scientific investigation" of what is behind it) would be of great interest to me, too :-) . Indeed, the Veil of Maya is a concept which comes from the Indian tradition so I'm very privileged to be able to ask this question to you and Manjit!
 
Hi Hypermagda, I think that was my post. I was meaning to finish that thought, but I had to go and I'd run out of steam on that thought! I was meant to be somewhere 2 hours ago, I've been online all morning - so I'll complete the thought quickly and haphazardly haha.

First of all, I would say Nicole's comment above:

Is a most wonderful & succint summarisation of my thoughts. I will only butcher it by rambling on and on about it ;)

There are 2 perspectives, imo, from the individual pov & the "system's" pov.

From the individual level, I think the more you are able to get the sense of "ego" out of the way, the more these "paranormal" experiences occur. This is an incredibly simplistic reduction of an incredibly complex dynamic/process. By losing the "ego", I would mean one has absolutely no concern for the benefit and desires for the individual body-mind organism. No "laws of attraction" type desires, no wanting to be able to do this or that to impress other people, become known, to feel powerful, to change the world etc etc If one's only desire is pure unadulturated desire to know the "truth", the "divine" or whatever, and one has no desire to advertise any insights or revelations or experiences for the purpose of inflating their ego or i-dentity (includes ideas of changing the world by shattering the current paradigms etc), then I believe weird shit can happen quite frequenty, and can become like water of a duck's back....because one is not even really concerned or impressed by them, one is more concerned with the underlying truth or nature of reality behind them, and on an intensely personal level, not for worldly display or purposes.

I would always recommend an open-minded sceptic as a very quick and simple experiment, try doing a sigil magick ritual, but request something will be a) of absolutely no benefit whatsoever to you on any level, utterly useless and inconsequential, b) something so utterly unlikely, so absurd, that if it does work (set a short time frame, something like 24 hours), that it will unmistakably show you the universe is a very weird place, and c) have no intention of ever telling anyone of the results.

And imo, this is just a tip of a deep & strange iceberg.

In my posts I am completely open and honest about my experiences, but they are all from 10+ years ago, when I was a different person :)

From the "system" level, I feel the human experience is a very unique one, and the evolution of history and humankind appears to me to be the manifestation of a fine balance between materialism and spirituality/consciousness-focus.

If there was incontrovertible proof that this material world wasn't the only one, and that consciousness is not tied to these bodies of clay, then that would completely disturb the balance of human existence, as it currently is, and would then have to wonder......(if one believes in many of these "soul" based narratives).....what was/is the point of all those centuries of ignorance, of increasing "descent" into materiality, if we're only going to completely upturn that, and the entire evolution of humankind, now? (don't know if that made sense, rushing!) Of course, things can get incredibly complex about where this "evolution" is taking us, as authors such as Gary Lachman write, and perhaps we ARE meant to evolve to the point where we know our "true divine" origins or what not? I just don't think so. If any of this is true, then the universe (material & non-material) must be vast & incomprehensible. I'm sure, if that were true, there would be realities with beings completely aware of their divine nature or what not. I don't see earth as being one of those places. This may be like a juvenile correction centre haha!

Anyway, Hypermagda, what are your own thoughts on this then? I always love to hear the opinions of others, once we've all kind of got to the foot of the same mountain?

Cheers!
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it because I'm kind of always in a hurry, too, but I increasingly find existence to be such a (sick) joke that these issues are becoming far more interesting than the mundane business of everyday life :). Life appears to me to be increasingly absurd in itself, and yet I care deeply about those who suffer in this 'cosmic game of hide and seek' and take it very seriously. So I don't know if I fit in your description of those who "qualify" to get paranormal experiences (and yet over the past 3 years I've been experiencing quite a few of them, luckily not extreme ones!), in the sense that my ego is superstrong :): I protest against this "reality", nothing could be further away from me than the concept of "surrender" in fact! I posted a link to a passage written by Yogananda the other day (post #48 in this thread http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threa...-messages-sometimes-lie.444/page-3#post-88382). Basically you'll find my take on things in that post. I find Yogananda's attitude perplexing to say the least. I feel that he was very probably right in his vision of existence as some kind of shadowplay (diagnosis) but then I find the "cure" he suggests disconcerting : "Do not be so sensitive. Emotional sensitivity is the silent cause of all suffering. To give strength to creation as a reality by emotional involvement in it is foolishness!". This would make sense with reference to our own "selfish" suffering, but should we also develop this insensitivity towards the suffering we see around us? Many say that we are here to learn something, to evolve etc (I doubt it, but that's just my feeling, I don't have any certainties about this obviously) So Is this what we are supposed to learn? It would seem completely in contrast with what all the best, wisest people have said throughout the centuries, that is, that we should care about others as much as possible. In general I have always felt that there is a logical contradiction between detachment and compassion, as preached by Buddhism for instance (of course I'm making a sweeping generalisation because I know there are different schools of thought in Buddhism). The usual answer I get is: "help others but do not be emotionally involved". So are we supposed to become some kind of efficient "helping robots" with no feelings? I honestly don't get it. Anyway I digress. In a nutshell, it's very difficult for me to see how being here can be considered to be educational in a sense that would make sense for us humans. God (please see my comments about this word in the abovementioned post to understand what I mean by it - in its current use this word contains a contradiction in terms) really feels ALIEN to me :) It would seem like we are being encouraged to become indifferent, joyful "tricksters", like the deceiver who has (purportedly) put us here and who stubbornly and cruelly refuses to tell us exactly what the purpose of our existence in this flawed world is. Is it simply to enjoy what our senses can offer us? Is it to serve others and overcome our selfishness? Is it to entertain him (my guess)? It's like we've been thrown into a school without a curriculum, but (according to many) we still have to pass a final exam (maybe after countless reincarnations). The veil would seem to me to be there not in our own interest but in the interest of "the powers that be", whatever they are - maybe the ultimate creator God has committed suicide (if he's omnipotent, why would that be inconceivable?:) ) and left the universe in the hands of an oligarchy of "gods"/"forces" each pursuing a different agenda, who knows, I mean, anything is possible, really! I'd really love to hear Sciborg on the Trickster thing as the "subtitle" to his avi is "Trickster makes this world", haha!
One final thing: why would a ritual be necessary to request and obtain something (I refer to the example in your post) ?
I would have lots more to say and ask but...I have to go now, too :)
Thank you so much for your very interesting posts, it's been a pleasure exploring old threads, this Forum is a seeker's treasure trove!
 
Why would we expect communication with the other side to be clear or easy to understand?
Assuming (for the sake of argument) that there is another side then it's inhabitants are surely in a different state of being, a different dimension.
Might it not be akin to trying to receive an analogue signal with digital equipment?
In order to comment on the quality of the communication do we not need some understanding of the mechanisms involved in transmission...not to mention the motivations of the transmitters.

Maybe dying is like waking up from a dream, most people don't bother much with what happens in dreams
 
Why would we expect communication with the other side to be clear or easy to understand?
Assuming (for the sake of argument) that there is another side then it's inhabitants are surely in a different state of being, a different dimension.
Might it not be akin to trying to receive an analogue signal with digital equipment?
In order to comment on the quality of the communication do we not need some understanding of the mechanisms involved in transmission...not to mention the motivations of the transmitters.

Very fair and reasonable points. Just wanted to acknowledge them before what I write below.

Maybe dying is like waking up from a dream, most people don't bother much with what happens in dreams

Mmm, but isn't that because most of us have a solipsistic idea of dreams? That they are "all in our heads"? Wouldn't we feel very differently if we believed that the people/beings we encountered in dreams were real (i.e. existed in a literal realm beyond our imaginations), and that we could really hurt them? Wouldn't the ability to literally hurt/harm "dream characters" drastically change how much we were "bothered" by our dreams?
 
Wouldn't we feel very differently if we believed that the people/beings we encountered in dreams were real (i.e. existed in a literal realm beyond our imaginations), and that we could really hurt them? Wouldn't the ability to literally hurt/harm "dream characters" drastically change how much we were "bothered" by our dreams?
I agree and I hadn't thought about that before I made my dream analogy!
However, if we suppose that in the after life a much bigger picture is revealed to us then maybe it is hopeless to try and extrapolate from physical life in order to image how we might behave having passed over?
Just too many unknown unknowns?
 
I agree and I hadn't thought about that before I made my dream analogy!
However, if we suppose that in the after life a much bigger picture is revealed to us then maybe it is hopeless to try and extrapolate from physical life in order to image how we might behave having passed over?
Just too many unknown unknowns?

Yes, of course you are right, and my point was kind of a diversion off your very reasonable point that "awakening" into post-mortal reality from mortal life might be just like literally awakening from a dream in mortal life. It's just something that I wonder about.. are there any consequences to how I treat the "characters" in my dreams. Some of them seem VERY real. But even so, I'll just add that in some of my dreams I can sometimes feel even more awake (lucid) than I am in "waking" reality! Perhaps that puts SOMETHING of a dent in your point - is there *really* that much (necessary) difference between dream life and waking life, and, thus, in terms of your analogy, between mortal life and post-mortal? We can't know, which you point out, and you are also right to point out that there very well might be.
 
OK, I see what you're saying, but I still have to "Mmm". :-)

Even taking a solipsistic approach, that dreams occur only in our imagination: yes, when I wake up it seems inconsequential, but isn't that simply an artifact of memory, elapsed time, and changed circumstances? Put me back into a nightmare and it is going to seem as consequential as ever (in terms of its effect on my emotional being)! I guess my point is that, just as we might really hurt "dream characters", our experiences of fear, horror, suffering etc in dreams are in *some* sense very real (and thus consequential) - the sense that we literally experience them as they occur to us, and they have very real effects on our emotional being.

What does it mean to say that they're "inconsequential"? That we didn't "really" experience any fear, horror and suffering in them? Well, no, it clearly doesn't mean that, because at the time, we clearly experience those things powerfully, and they are as real - as an experience - as it gets. After the fact, we rationalise the experience away: oh, it occurred in some other reality, which was purely imaginary, and all inside of my head, and so it didn't have any consequences beyond what I felt, and who cares what I felt anyway (except that, at the time, YOU very much cared! And if you were put back into the experience again, you would again very much care!).

What I think you MIGHT mean by saying that dreams are inconsequential is that they have no material (as opposed to emotional) effects upon your life once you wake up from them. If your arm gets cut off in a dream, it will be whole when you wake up. If you go bankrupt in a dream, your finances will return when you wake up. If you are chased by a vampire or other monster in your dream, it will be gone when you wake up.

So, maybe, all that "inconsequential" means is "causally ineffective" (other than emotionally) upon reality switch (awakening)? I guess I just wonder how strong that sense of lack of consequence is. Before the reality switch, the (especially emotional) consequences are very real. And doesn't it, too, and again, to beat a dead horse, depend on whether the other beings we encounter in our dreams, and the dream "reality" itself, are "real"? And are there potentially karmic/spiritual causal consequences of our dream lives?

In any case, those are my two cents. I'm sure you have a rejoinder to all of that, and I look forward to reading it. Best wishes to you, Suzanne, I appreciate the dialogue. :-)
 
OK, I see what you're saying, but I still have to "Mmm". :)

What does it mean to say that they're "inconsequential"? That we didn't "really" experience any fear, horror and suffering in them? Well, no, it clearly doesn't mean that, because at the time, we clearly experience those things powerfully, and they are as real - as an experience - as it gets.

Hi Laird, I agree 100% with what you wrote in this post. Even if we should wake up when we die and realise it was all just a (bad) dream, why did we have to have that dream in the first place? "Somebody" created this mysterious 'dream machine'/universe, certainly not me "hypermagda" :-). I mean, even the dreams we have at night are not of our own creation, otherwise I don't see why we would choose to have nightmares. I can't choose to have dreams or not at night: sometimes I dream, sometimes I don't (alright, maybe I don't remember my dreams, but it boils down to the same thing experientially: no memory of having a dream = no dream).

In the same way I cannot choose to dream or not to dream at night, I could not choose to be here or not to be here. So I find it hard to believe that I could one day wake up from this life and think, "oh well, it was just a bad dream, never mind", because I would still blame 'someone' for having inflicted this particular dream or even just the "act of dreaming" ("living") upon me, as you say. If others are happy with it, so be it. I resent the mystery of it all, even if all should be "revealed" at the end.

To me consensus reality is dreamlike in the sense that it is ephemeral: our bodies, tables, chairs, anything looks "solid" but are made of....nothing, really ('energy', vibration...nothing very 'graspable' after all). However the experience, the 'interactions', the things that happen here are in many ways far more real than the 'things/bodies' to which they happen. It's like, the apparent "hardware" (objects) of this dream/simulation, when seen close-up, "scientifically", is impalpable, gossamer-like, while the "software" (the experience, the 'stories' and what they mean to us) is very real for us, and we have to make a huge effort (see spiritual practices, religion etc) to try and convince ourselves that life is not as unfair and absurd as it would appear, that there is in fact a higher meaning to it and that it will all make sense in the end for us, too (some believe in spiritual evolution/a benevolent God/anything that would justify it all, holocaust and all). But I have the impression that our existence was not designed to have meaning for US - I suppose it must have had some kind of purpose (entertainment?) for other "entities", otherwise why go to the trouble of creating all this? "God" would indeed seem to be an alien :-)....the "Veil of Maya" is also a veil of incommunicability. But one of the parties (the more powerful) could choose to communicate if it wanted. If it doesn't...it's because it might be something we wouldn't want to hear, or it may simply be that it doesn't even care whether we are informed or not. We are not that important.

So, life is like a dream also because we don't have control over our dreams. We have no control over the fact that we are here, "dreaming" our existence - can anybody actually prove that they were asked to be born? I know most new-agers believe that we choose our family and our experiences, but that's just a belief like many others, obviously, not a provable fact (I respect it but in the same way as I respect all sorts of other beliefs which would be incompatible with this)....As far as we actually know we were simply thrown into existence. It seems like someone is dreaming/creating stories with (or through) us, someone or many different "entities"/primeval forces, who knows! So even if one day we should be told were we were "on Candid Camera".....I for one would not be amused.....but it depends on one's sense of humour I suppose. Those who are able to laugh at this joke called existence are perhaps the wisest.
 
In a nutshell, it's very difficult for me to see how being here can be considered to be educational in a sense that would make sense for us humans.

Hi Hypermagda - thanks for the great post! Wow, you brought up LOTS of things, if we had a proper discussion around it we could be here for, errrm, years :)

Firstly I got to say, I'm totally with you on all your questions & speculations, and struggling to get to grips with it. I've had many if not most the thoughts you express, and still do, and there are no easy or definitive answers that I'm aware of. (I wrote a post here a while ago called speculation on the nature of reality, I believe, which more or less says a lot of what you wrote above).

So may things I want to mention, so I'll do it as they come.

You mentioned "maya" and the "veil". Nicole mentioned a "cosmic game of hide and seek". The "game" would be called "lila" in Hindu philosophy, one of my favourite concepts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_(Hinduism)

Maya (as you know) means "Illusion". The purpose and very nature of that maya or illusion is the false sense of individuality (that manifests as "ego", not the psychoanalytic kind, but eastern), it prevents one seeing that we are, in fact, just one consciousness endlessly dividing itself to create this "divine play" or lila. Suffering is necessary - from the "one" consciousness pov - to be able to appreciate more loving and ecstatic states of being. This is not necessarily to be understood intellectually, but through ecstatic mystical and visionary experiences. This "one consciousness" has divided itself into almost infinite beings with the illusion of individuality, and infinite universes and realms.

I'm not saying I believe any of this, but as you mentioned maya and the veil, and Nicole mentioned "cosmic game", I thought I'd mention it in case you wasn't familiar with it in this way. Actually, personally, I feel this model is probably one of the more likely ones, stated in a way my tiny fragile human mind can understand anyway.

Re Yogananda - know quite a bit about him, and the true origins and path-holders of "Kriya Yoga". Personally, I would not recommend him as any kind of authority on Indian philosophy, but each to their own :)

Re Buddhism and this issue of compassion and/or detachment. This is an issue I myself struggle with constantly. It's a hard line to walk. I've really studied Buddhism quite a lot (all schools), and have done quite a bit of meditation using several of their methods. I have to say, personally (and I have absolutely no affiliation or even relationship of any sort with any Buddhist school or persons) I think their teachings & methods are probably the most "advanced" known to humankind, as are their teachings on this very subject of balancing the desire to be "detached" and feeling immense compassion for suffering beings...even if they are merely illusions ;)

All I can think of saying on the issue is, their "unity" of "emptiness" and "bliss" (detachment/no body & compassion/body) is NOT a theoretical or intellectual issue to be pondered over. It is a very, very advanced stage of meditation where direct realisation super-cedes conceptual & intellectual understand. This has been my understanding of it, as well as partial experience.

Re the issue of "deceivers", well, these ideas have been around for thousands of years! Jesus says "pay unto Ceaser what is due unto Ceaser", and that there is a "Prince of this World", and he wasn't talking about his "Father"!!

I followed a path which very, very strongly teaches this. This world, the astral world, and even the causal worlds are ALL under the sway of this "deceiver", known as the "demi-urge" in gnosticism (I know you know all this!), and "kal" in Indian philosophy (also means time, which is another clue!). But they also teach there is something "beyond" this, something known as "Dayal", which means Merciful One or Graceful One. And there are many paths and practices to attain this.

Now is any of this true? Who knows!! Do I personally believe it? I genuinely haven't got a clue.

But one thing my life has taught me, there is DEFINITELY something weird and strange going on, without doubt. And very often, that "weird" thing is all about love, joy, compassion etc...and often it re-frames all the suffering I see around me into just Love struggling to express itself across vast & incomprehensible universes.

But that may just be my particular delusion, probably almost certainly is :)
 
I have the impression that our existence was not designed to have meaning for US

Blimey, reading this thread is like reading the thoughts in my head out on the page! This forum & Michael Prescott's blog (where I've never posted I believe...oh once I did!) is the only place that happens. Spooky.

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this.

Hypermagda - I've pondered this same thought before. Who knows! But consider, as per my recent post, that the meaning isn't for all the little illusions or bubbles of consciousness we call "US", but for the singular "I AM", if that makes any sense. The original pure, undivided and undifferentiated ocean of consciousness which had to create separation in order to create experience. Nobody would have any experience if they knew they were the "One". Just speculating.

That's it, I'm rambling now been online too long. Will probably be off for a few days so lack of responses doesn't mean lack of interest. I'm certainly interested in reading more of everyone else thoughts on this, helps me clarify my own.
 
But I have the impression that our existence was not designed to have meaning for US - I suppose it must have had some kind of purpose (entertainment?) for other "entities", otherwise why go to the trouble of creating all this? "God" would indeed seem to be an alien :)....the "Veil of Maya" is also a veil of incommunicability. But one of the parties (the more powerful) could choose to communicate if it wanted. If it doesn't...it's because it might be something we wouldn't want to hear, or it may simply be that it doesn't even care whether we are informed or not. We are not that important.

.As far as we actually know we were simply thrown into existence. It seems like someone is dreaming/creating stories with (or through) us, someone or many different "entities"/primeval forces, who knows! So even if one day we should be told were we were "on Candid Camera".....I for one would not be amused.....but it depends on one's sense of humour I suppose. Those who are able to laugh at this joke called existence are perhaps the wisest.

Thanks for your thoughts hypermagda, even if I came away feeling quite sad. ;)

I'll add mine, who knows what they're worth?( That might seem like a throw away line, but it's not.) I think that writing my thoughts, (which are far from solid) are adding to the universe, it doesn't truly matter whether they're good or bad, happy or sad (haha I know that's from a song, can't remember it's name), it's all part of this incredible adventure called living. They're probably far from being truly original, at the same time I'd bet that this package of thinking is unique, not one of my 7 billion fellow humans has exactly the same thoughts. I think that by itself is a clue. I find that exciting rather than depressing. Really.

I get the sense that "all this" is designed to have us asking all sorts of questions, in a way it's a game, or test. You say that it "was not designed to have meaning for US", on the contrary, I (I'm going to use the word 'feel' rather than 'think' from now on) feel that we are a huge part of 'it'. My feeling about aliens or entities which some others seem to feel are heavily involved, is that they are just another creation of God, as is everything in this universe. The question 'is there only one God' is a valid one. I really haven't a clue, in my mind anything is possible. And by God, I mean an intelligent, loving entity. (More wishful thinking?)

Taking the earth alone, (and forgetting for a moment that we are contemplating God). It appears that evil plays as important a part as does good. I have some sense of why that might be. Assuming that God (back into play), basically does not have form in 'its' basic .... Uh oh....form :eek: and taking what we think of are laws of 'nature', that energy cannot be destroyed, that everything seems to be in balance, black/white, the in/out of breathing (which I sense has itself hidden secrets), tides, birth/death and so on, all bring clues to the table.

We even hear in some( many?) NDEs about those beings, usually in cloaks,( their favoured disguise), which bring the dark side to earth, like management teams, keeping things in balance. (I'm guessing Arsenal would be one of those;) -Brit humour) On the opposite side, there are seemingly Angels. I'm guessing there are lots more entities.

So for every Isis head separator, there is an act of mercy somewhere, to balance acts of hatred there is compassion etc. Now whether this exactly balances......, if it does, and I think ultimately it must according to my theory.

Somehow we are here to evolve God, we are a small part of God, as is everything we know. We face many choices every day, some small, some medium, some large, and occasionally huge. We basically have two directions with each choice - Love or Fear. Do we leave our plate for someone else to tidy up, or pick it up ourselves? It is probably much more complicated than that, but maybe not? We also experience things, how we react to those experiences also means something.

Just take one of us. Just one life. How many choices do we make, how many emotions do we feel in a eighty year span? Evolution in all forms seems to take a long time (time is another thing that deserves another thread, you could spend a lifetime studying that alone!). That's why reincarnation is a 'given' for me also.

I could rant on in disjointed bits for ages, but instead I'll leave you with a recent thing from the TV that, for me, meant a whole lot.

I sat flicking through the channels on (I think) Saturday night, and settled in on watching a programme about someone named Gareth Malone, now Gareth is well known on tv as a musician, he looks about 16 when he's actually 40, he has made quite a few programmes about Choirs, which he himself formed from all sorts of people, often people that hadn't really thought about being in a choir.

This programme was about having a ten year reunion with some choir members, and it showed clips of him from previous shows, when he first formed these choirs. There were a few individuals that were particularly 'awkward' ! two of them stood out for me, I'll just describe one individual in particular. He was a teenager of about fifteen years of age, he was the leader of a group of coloured kids that were really into music, but thought that the choir idea was lame, and didn't want anything to do with it. But Gareth knew that he was the key, and that he would embrace it if he (Gareth) could find a way. He was up against a brick wall. The young guy, (Let's call him Aden) wouldn't comply, he ignored Gareth's authority which was extremely frustrating
for Gareth, who recognised that Aden had talent.

There was a really telling clip of Aden talking about his father making a rather negative remark, after he had watched Aden sing a song in some gathering, which totally put him off ever doing so again. But Gareth never gave up, he had to think of a way to 'get to Aden'. Finally he had an idea, if he could show Aden someone that Aden respected, doing something that Gareth was promoting, and being respectful to him, that might do the trick.

He got a young trendy achapello(?) group to perform in front of Aden and his schoolboy pals, which did the trick. Most of Aden's group joined the choir, this included people who made percussion and bass parts with their voices only. The choir ended up performing at the Albert Hall, with Aden singing solo. A fantastic, amazing experience for them all. It probably was a life changing event for some, including Aden,

This was a choice made by Gareth Malone. Watching it made me emotional, I really had the feeling that this was a magical moment, one that God would really love. One that proves to me that we are important, that we all have a choice. It's hard to make loving choices all the time, but I just know that there is purpose in our lives. And that God would be dancing a divine jig when he watched that programme. :)
 
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