Deepest Mystery

Discussion in 'Critical Discussions Among Proponents and Skeptics' started by chuck.drake, Aug 21, 2014.

  1. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    There seems to me to be a parallel between the science of the East, which I consider to be the systematic study of consciousness having started roughly 2500 years ago with the Vedas, and Western science, which is a a study of the apparent physical world.

    The greatest Eastern sages, and now including contemporary "awakened" individuals from across the globe partake of an enormous body of knowledge that explains much about consciousness, identity and a path to end suffering here in this physical manifestation. But the greatest mystery remains--how something comes of nothing. Or for the sage how this relative reality manifests out of the singular absolute.

    While in Western science, we also have an enormous body of knowledge about many different disciplines, but when we drill down to the very deepest level we basically come up with the same mystery. How did this reality appear from nothing with the big bang. And maybe even how do the apparent physical objects of reality actually manifest from the quantum soup.

    Those schooled in Eastern thought accept these mysteries as unknowable from this physical existence and even adopt a devotional stance toward it.

    It seems as if most involved in Western science feel that ultimately even the deepest mysteries will eventually be solved.

    Are these two paths in some way convergent?
     
    MysticG, billw and Sciborg_S_Patel like this.
  2. Arouet

    Arouet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,222
    Certainly is a mystery, but its not necessarily whether something came from nothing. We have two choices:

    • Something came from nothing.
    • Something has always existed.

    The BBT doesn't speak to either of those since it starts after there already was something.
     
  3. Bucky

    Bucky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,681
    Whatever the case, both concepts are pretty much unfathomable for our mind and fall in the "supernatural" category, for those who like those kind of labels...
     
    tim and Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. like this.
  4. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    Or it can possibly be both right. Something always existed that was "nothing" or no-thing and out of that some-thing arose.
     
  5. To be fair to the West, philosophers of the Greek and Scholastic traditions, at least, were also concerned with the something from nothing problem and took it seriously. Nowadays you have people erroneously pointing to a quantum vacuum as nothing, but this doesn't do anything to answer the question.

    You see something similar with the pile up brute facts, though we do see some people digging into those as well when they question assumptions about time, causality, and the laws of physics - even asking if any of those exist*. So you kinda see some convergence on that score? I think certain problems, like the question of Something from Nothing, are more philosophical problems than scientific ones. Others, like choice of metaphysical paradigm, are philosophy interpreting scientific findings. Of course whether any aspect of reality falls outside of the science's ability to examine is itself a philosophical question.

    All that said, Chuck you might enjoy Mattews' Why Has the West Failed to Embrace Panpsychism? as it touches on the development of Western thought toward abstraction of reality in comparison to the Tao. (board thread here)

    *Time:

    Does Time Exist?


    Causality:

    Surprise! Naturalistic metaphysics undermines naive determinism, part I

    Surprise! Naturalistic metaphysics undermines naive determinism, part II

    Laws of Physics:

    Frozen Accidents: Can the Laws of Physics be Explained?

    Is the Search for Immutable Laws of Nature a Wild-Goose Chase?
     
    K9! and Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. like this.
  6. Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr.

    Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. New

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    74
    This too.

    It seems that most people assume that time is a fundamental property of experience and thus existence. But I don't think that's true. Time comes about when we reflect upon experience in memory and anticipate incoming information, or when we try to measure the properties of existence like motion, but that has nothing to do with experience itself.
     
    K9! and Sciborg_S_Patel like this.
  7. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    Yes. Time is certainly another big mystery. I remember seeing on one of those smart fellow's shows about quantum mechanics that there is nothing in physics to stop time from moving backwards--to stop a glass from unshattering for example. But it just doesn't happen that way.
     
  8. chuck.drake

    chuck.drake Guest

    Probably if we all got really stoned simultaneously this thread would be a lot more interesting. Just saying.
     
  9. Can we make sense of the world?

     
  10. Typoz

    Typoz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,407
    Perhaps it does happen. If it did happen, how would you be able to tell?

    edit. At 1 minute in, water flowing upwards looks perfectly natural...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  11. bishop

    bishop Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    641
    This is a great thread, and this is a great video. But I totally disagree that water flowing backwards looks natural.
     
  12. bishop

    bishop Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    641
    I've been wondering about this. What if the cosmos is much much stranger than we thought, and sometimes it exists and sometimes it doesn't.
     
    MysticG likes this.
  13. Arouet

    Arouet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,222
    Interesting, but would that not still be a version of the other two? If the universe keeps popping out of nothing, it one. If it stops existing but starts again through some relation to how it was before then its the other? I dunno, could be its own category!
     
  14. Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr.

    Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. New

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    74
    I don't believe in the universe, only the youniverse.
     
    K9!, bishop and Jim_Smith like this.
  15. malf

    malf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    4,049
    I've just been a bit sick in my mouth...
     
  16. Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr.

    Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. New

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    74
    Does that mean you threw up in your mouth?
     
  17. bishop

    bishop Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    641
    Whose?
     
  18. Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr.

    Juicy Fruit Jackson Jr. New

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    74
    It doesn't matter, I have no preference. I think we all have pretty much the same niverse.
     
  19. On the subject of Nothingness, perhaps Musashi's Book of Void might be worth a look?

    (I've not read it myself, it came up while I was discussing something else.)
     
  20. MasterWu

    MasterWu New

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    445
    I think it's possible that the Universe might be a Block-Universe in a B-theory type of time, and hence, it doesn't require a cause for it's existence, nor it came from nothing.
     

Share This Page