"Degrading Love" by TheraminTrees [VIDEO]

David Bailey · Jun 25, 2017

Well nothing is certain in this business, and I wondered if you would pick up on my assumption even as I wrote it, however:

1) Most NDE's follow the positive pattern.

2) At least some hellish NDE's seem to convert to the positive form part way through.

3) I don't know of a positive NDE that turned bad part way through.

Maybe someone can add some more concrete thoughts on this.

David

Laird · Jun 25, 2017

hypermagda said:

Well, that would probably end up being the right decision - after all, why couldn't the being do its own killing? - but there could be circumstances where it would be the wrong decision. I'm not going to advocate for that though or continue playing devil's/Yahweh's/dualism's advocate, so you can have your peace.

Laird · Jun 25, 2017

David Bailey said:

All fair points, however, attributing hellish NDE's to "some transient problem associated with passnig over" seems as troublesome as maintaining that a perfectly good higher power allows all this suffering before passing over in the first place - i.e. why would it: why wouldn't (doesn't) it have the power to change things for the better and avoid all of this negativity?

David Bailey · Jun 25, 2017

hypermagda said:

The responsibility lies with Richard Dawkins, because he combed the Bible for passages like that to include in his book, "The God Delusion". I think that is the one book of Dawkins that is worth reading - his philosophy is rubbish. However, that is my point - I think a great many people recoiled against Christianity - for reasons like that - but they simply fell into the arms of materialism.

Without that revulsion, academia might have been far more ready to recognise the signs that materialism is false.

David

David Bailey · Jun 25, 2017

Laird said:

Well clearly there is earthly suffering, and I can easily imagine that this may taint the early phase of the death transition.

However, the way I look at all this, is that many people deliberately expose themselves to danger and extreme discomfort - climbing mountains, visiting war zones, running to exhaustion, riding scary roller coaster rides, bungee jumping, etc, and they do it because they feel this gives them something. Looked at from that perspective, it seems at least plausible that people get incarnated on the same basis.

Eternal punishment seems something else - how could anyone 'gain' from that - indeed if they could gain it wouldn't really be punishment - which reminds me about a joke about a masochist and a sadist, but I will refrain!

David

Laird · Jun 25, 2017

David Bailey said:

So does the unconditional love you attribute to the God of NDEs. Why would anybody feel the need to leave that, at the risk of suffering intensely - and this is a risk. e.g. visiting a war zone entails the risk of being deemed a spy and tortured extensively - a risk which some people will fall prey to? Is that something that a person would "volunteer" to "risk", when they needn't leave an entirely loving environment?

David Bailey said:

Indeed, but this is one of the possibilities under dualism, which is a metaphysic with much to recommend in it.

Typoz · Jun 25, 2017

Laird said:

I can't address the concept of 'need' here.

However some NDErs describe coming here with great hopes for what they aimed to achieve. But after they get here. they are surprised at how much more difficult it turned out to be. That isn't something only a first-time visitor might say, but those who've lived here before, start out with the idea that this time they will do things differently, but then the actuality takes over.

Others have described during an NDE meeting those in the none-physical who are eager to know what it was like, almost like we might ask questions of great explorers. Perhaps we undervalue what it is we are doing here. Our lives vary enormously of course, but perhaps we are all in some respects kind of explorers too.

Laird · Jun 25, 2017

Typoz said:

But now you're singing a different tune to David. David suggested that we come here because it's risky, i.e. we come here for the thrill of it, but now you're saying there's something to achieve. So, which is it - the thrill of risking it, or the achievement - and, if there's something to achieve (that couldn't be achieved in the non-corporeal) then what is it, and why do we need to come here and suffer to achieve it?

hypermagda · Jun 25, 2017

Laird said:

Also, why would we accept in the first place that we need to forget all our previous experience here (because this is what happens in 99.99% of cases), so that we have basically to start from scratch? How can it make sense to try the same thing over and over again without the benefit of previous experience (supposed previous lives)? I for one would feel that this is foolish, and would never "come back" for more of the same. I don't do any extreme sports, so why am I here, exactly, since this is so alien to my nature? Also, who decides the "rules" of this incomprehensible game (that we need to forget etc)?

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

On February 16 th 2004 ,I came home from work to find the person I cared most about in this world. My wife. Had taken her own life.
This completely pulled the rug from underneath me.As one might expect I thought love would carry the day.
As a result of this I have come to the tentative conclusion that this earthly series of tribulations. Is as much about threshing out eternity. As it is about the gaining of experience, and or any corresponding spiritual growth.

hypermagda · Jun 25, 2017

oleo said:

First of all - a big hug. And then another one, where I hold you tight, as if I could take away some of your pain, if only for a second.
You are a very brave man, and whatever you choose to believe in is fine by me, if it helps you cope with this tragedy, which would very probably have broken me.
If - and only IF - you feel like explaining better what you mean by "threshing out eternity", I would be interested. But not in order to then tell you what I think about it. Just to better understand your tentative conclusion (as you defined it).
with sisterly love,
hypermagda
PS: sorry about the unrequested hug - I'm Italian....

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

Thank you, hypermagda.
Hugs are good.
What I was attempting to convey. Is based on the assumption that we are eternal. To my way of thinking this makes our lives in this world a small passion play. For the sake of play and passion. And to while away time.
If that's of any help.

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

hypermagda · Jun 25, 2017

oleo said:

You are very welcome Oleo. I hope you are right, of course. But I still don't think it's fun -- even if we were eternal I could think of far nicer things to do with eternity. I guess it's a question of taste. This "supposed" God (if there is a God behind this) and I obviously have a profoundly different sensibility.
Edit: I think you added something to your previous post : "And to while away time". If it really were so, then at least I could feel sorry for him/her/it. But it would still be a twisted way of whiling away time, frankly.

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

Some of it seems fun, some not so much

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

Different sensibilities allow us to see different points of view, I think

Typoz · Jun 25, 2017

oleo said:

I must admit in the face of an experience such as you described, it might seem almost to trivialise or belittle what we go through in this life, to consider it as somewhat like a passion play.

But on the other hand, I do tend towards that sort of idea myself. I can imagine an NDE or ADE where there is a life review together with some warm spiritual being, where we might all take a much more light-hearted view of these things. I think of it sometimes as a four or five-year-old child bursting into tears over a missing shirt-button or something. We get so entangled in our dramas, but in the longer perspective they may not be all that serious. Certainly this has been one of my own flaws, I sometimes take things oh-so-very-seriously when, no matter what the problem, there's a need to lighten up. At least that's my advice to myself. Everyone else is free to ignore it.

hypermagda · Jun 25, 2017

oleo said:

Sorry to insist, but can you truly "see" the point of view which makes suicide a worthwhile way to while away time (both for the person who commits it and for the people who love them)? Doesn't it feel to you like you are somehow being forced by circumstance to take this point of view in order to suffer less?

Apologies if you feel my questions are inappropriate. I most definitely do not wish to rub salt in your wounds. If you don't reply I will stop asking them.

oleo · Jun 25, 2017

No worries

Morning Fog · Jun 25, 2017

What is good? And where does it come from? Is it only subjective or does it also have a objective component as well. I suppose the same question should be asked of evil as well. In discussions like this I feel like these questions should be addressed head on. Unfortunately... these age old questions seem to be impossible to answer head on. So ... we go round and round and around some more. But the subject matter is still painfully fascinating nonetheless.

Example: I feel the need to empathize with what oleo went through because perhaps we are indeed connected in some way and by recognizing said connection... we are embracing something that is indeed objectively good.