"Degrading Love" by TheraminTrees [VIDEO]

#63
A little acknowledgement re "vagueness" though. I think there are three roles for a God/Devil: (1) Creator (2) Ultimate Good (3) Ultimate Evil. It seems natural that two of these (#1 and either #2 or #3) are played by the same character, but it's hard to work out which, and I find myself assuming (in a less than desirable+consistent way) that it's #1 and #2. This, I think, is my main metaphysical confusion right now.
One puzzle is that (IMHO) there is good evidence that life was created and is maintained by an intelligence. If that is so, it seems hard to accept that this intelligence is completely good - it must have been involved in designing parasites as well as us!

One possible approach is to assume (along Rupert Sheldrake's lines) that there is a spirit/morphic field associated with each species. However, this implies that there is a larger hierarchy of conscious entities than we generally imagine. Mediochre's encounters (above) may imply the same.

I think the approach of making 'excuses' for god's behaviour has become intellectually bankrupt. If, for example, he had wanted to prevent a figure like Hitler emerging, he would have had any number of options available - so why demand that an actual person should murder that person while still a child?

I spend my days doing little more than studying and developing magic and I've learned a thing or two from it. Such as how to induce a shared dream with someone and then gamemaster it. I've learned it's totally possible to do things like induce feelings, visions, and even full sensory experiences into people. Pull people out of their bodies, put them back in, physically injure people via astral projection, and much more. I've attained a level of technical knowledge that previously only belonged to spirits. I can understand the underlying mechanisms of how someone would give someone else a life review or preview along with pretty much all the other stuff reported in NDE's to the degree that with a little more practice I could probably do them to other people myself....................
I know this post is pretty much devoid of logic and is just a bunch of claims that I can't possibly verify for anyone but that's what it boils down to and it's all I've got for the moment.
To me, virtually all the evidence discussed here, has to be taken with a certain level of uncertainty. Materialists can even persuade themselves that even the most careful research is worthless - we all have to reason with uncertain facts here.

It sounds as if we might be able to test you in some way - with a positive result being treated as more significant than a negative one - but please, only if the process can be safe for all concerned!

David
 
#64
One puzzle is that (IMHO) there is good evidence that life was created and is maintained by an intelligence. If that is so, it seems hard to accept that this intelligence is completely good - it must have been involved in designing parasites as well as us!
Perhaps we ourselves are the parasites. I find it hard to justify placing ourselves in a position where we can even evaluate such matters.

As for ideas of God, it seems a kind of game is played in these discussions. One person or another comes up with an idea of what God must be like. Then in the next sentence they declare why they think that is such a terrible idea. Why not just stop with the fooling, setting up a target and knocking it down. It seems to serve no purpose.
 
#65
Perhaps we ourselves are the parasites. I find it hard to justify placing ourselves in a position where we can even evaluate such matters.
Well I did think about swapping the roles over, but my point is that there is obvious strife in the animal kingdom (and maybe among plants) and it doesn't make a lot of sense to postulate just one intelligent designer!
As for ideas of God, it seems a kind of game is played in these discussions. One person or another comes up with an idea of what God must be like. Then in the next sentence they declare why they think that is such a terrible idea. Why not just stop with the fooling, setting up a target and knocking it down. It seems to serve no purpose.
Well that is why I normally avoid using the term - but people love to use it - including Alex!

David
 
#66
And what about the forces who opposed Hitler? Could they have done so effectively had each soldier ignored his superior officer's orders?
Well it was the obedience of the german soldiers that created the situation that the allies needed to respond to so yes disobedience would've solved all of it. Same goes for every other state sponsored "bad thing" throughout history

Allow Larkin Rose to demonstrate:

 
#67
Well it was the obedience of the german soldiers that created the situation that the allies needed to respond to so yes disobedience would've solved all of it. Same goes for every other state sponsored "bad thing" throughout history

Allow Larkin Rose to demonstrate:

I thought you didn't believe in objective morality?
 
#68
Well it was the obedience of the german soldiers that created the situation that the allies needed to respond to so yes disobedience would've solved all of it. Same goes for every other state sponsored "bad thing" throughout history
Not necessarily. Soldiers - and indeed the population from which they come, is frequently lied to, or fed distorted facts. Think of all the rubbish being talked about Russia in the US right now. So soldiers may obey because they don't get to see the full picture.

David
 
#69
Well it was the obedience of the german soldiers that created the situation that the allies needed to respond to so yes disobedience would've solved all of it.
I agree. Ideally, the German soldiers would have refused to obey orders, and the whole sorry mess would have been avoided. But we don't live in an ideal world, so, practically, they had to be opposed - and it's hard to imagine an opposition army composed of soldiers who were disobedient to their superior officers.
 
#70
One puzzle is that (IMHO) there is good evidence that life was created and is maintained by an intelligence. If that is so, it seems hard to accept that this intelligence is completely good - it must have been involved in designing parasites as well as us!
Well, yes, that's what I was getting at with the three roles, and the difficulty - though intuitive - of maintaining that two of the roles - Creator and Ultimate Good - are played by the same character.
 
#71
Well, yes, that's what I was getting at with the three roles, and the difficulty - though intuitive - of maintaining that two of the roles - Creator and Ultimate Good - are played by the same character.
Maybe, but it would seem that there are one or more non-physical levels between us and them.

This is rather like the analogous situation in science, that I have mentioned more than once. A theory can be ultimately true, but if it is presented far ahead of its time, it isn't any use. I'd much sooner science accepted Dualism that Idealism, even though the latter may represent the ultimate truth. If science took the small step to Dualism, it could systematise a lot of data that it currently ignores.

David
 
#73
It sounds as if we might be able to test you in some way - with a positive result being treated as more significant than a negative one - but please, only if the process can be safe for all concerned!
I'd like that too actually, if for no other reason than it would help with my training. Probably the most likely thing I could accomplish is inducing a shared dream or doing some kind of poltergiest. But the problem I always run into is that I can't control specifically when any of it will actually happen nor can I really tell when it's happening while in the projection especially for shared dreams. I mean for a poltergeist I could just look at a clock or something but that would probably lead into the next problem.

Awareness seems to be a confounding factor that I'm not sure how to deal with. Appearing to be capable of shifting the timeline off course so that the target "misses" the time space where the poltergiest/shared dream occured. The result is the same either way, nothing happens. This is why I don't just offer proof because I just plain can't yet, I'm just not skilled enough to consistently make this work. Part of that is because I don't actively practice poltergiesting or projection because I'm trying to achieve direct telekinesis and energy condensation.

Still if I can figure out a way around this I wouldn't mind at least making an attempt for funzies.
 
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#74
I thought you didn't believe in objective morality?
I don't but it doesn't change the logic of the video. If "objective morality" equals null then anything that conflicts with that (trying to moralize a group via ideology to create an us vs them mentality) is irrational and should be disobeyed and if it's the same (accepting that everyone has their own personal opinions that come from their own personal experiences, goals and personality) then it's redundant and irrelevant.
 
#75
Not necessarily. Soldiers - and indeed the population from which they come, is frequently lied to, or fed distorted facts. Think of all the rubbish being talked about Russia in the US right now. So soldiers may obey because they don't get to see the full picture.

David
That's true but at the end of the day it was still their choice. Jean Paul Sartre used the abraham being told to kill his son story directly to talk about this point. Where at the end of the day it was Abrahams choice to believe that the angel was sent by god, it was his choice to believe that god really told the angel to kill his son and wasn't acting on it's own, and it was his choice to try going through with it.

Plus I'd argue that the fact that governments feel the need to lie so much further demonstrates that authority doesn't exist.
 
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#77
I'm all all in with your last statement . But then. What value is power?
I'd need to know your definition of power to properly answer but if youi're referring to traditional political power which I call organizational power, as in one person says something and many others listen. I'd say it's an illusion and never existed in the first place, because authority is an illusion, it only exists in people's minds. I would argue it's the same for all other forms of power as well ultimately although some certainly appear more tangible than others.
 
#78
One possible approach is to assume (along Rupert Sheldrake's lines) that there is a spirit/morphic field associated with each species. However, this implies that there is a larger hierarchy of conscious entities than we generally imagine. Mediochre's encounters (above) may imply the same.

I wasn't originally going to comment on this point but I figure I probably should. I don't know exactly what you mean by hierarchy but I would admit that there definitely seems to be some people who believe themselvesd to be "in charge" of at least some aspects of what goes on down here. Believing themselves to be assisting in the development of humanity into, well, I guess they'd argue some sort of spiritual adulthood. I don't at all think these people are in charge of anything in any legitimate sense. What I see is a bunch of people who maintain their power through a combination of brute force, manipulation, secrecy and moral grandstanding and delude themselves that its anything other than that. I see them as little different than the spanish coming to "enlighten the savages." Claims have been thrown around that they have been attempting to lock the world down in a global totalitarian police state "to teach humans to be independant" because "the only way to win the game is not to play."

Citing success with their project in the form of individuals who "shine brightly" and act as inspirations to others to promote standard love, peace, freedom type ideals. Ignoring the masses of people who are driven to suicide, hoplessness, murder and straight up psycopathy. Claiming that they do things like whisper ideas in the ears of powerful, influenctial people. Make people make mistakes to make it easier for their people to get into position they want them in. Lots and lots of subtle manipulation apparently to keep from being detected. Because as we all know the best vaccine to psychological manipulation is awareness that the manipulation is happening. And detection is a threat to the project.

And apparently all of this is being done for humanity's benefit. They walked in, decided to set up shop here. decided that humanity needed to learn this authoritarian lesson, and decided they were going to be the ones to teach it because of course they know best.

I have many issues with this. One is that, assuming this is all true, this isn't a lesson anyone needed to learn. They had to create and exacerbate problems out of thin air that otherwise would not have existed for the purpose of "teaching" humanity about the problems of authoritarianism among other things. That's like punching someone in the face to teach them why you shouldn't punch people in the face and then claiming the person should be happy to get the chance to learn this valuable lesson. Do it enough times and it really starts to look like its just an excuse to go around punching people in the face.

I could rant forever about this but it's late and I should probably go to bed.
 
#79
I wasn't originally going to comment on this point but I figure I probably should. I don't know exactly what you mean by hierarchy but I would admit that there definitely seems to be some people who believe themselvesd to be "in charge" of at least some aspects of what goes on down here. Believing themselves to be assisting in the development of humanity into, well, I guess they'd argue some sort of spiritual adulthood. I don't at all think these people are in charge of anything in any legitimate sense. What I see is a bunch of people who maintain their power through a combination of brute force, manipulation, secrecy and moral grandstanding and delude themselves that its anything other than that. I see them as little different than the spanish coming to "enlighten the savages." Claims have been thrown around that they have been attempting to lock the world down in a global totalitarian police state "to teach humans to be independant" because "the only way to win the game is not to play."

Citing success with their project in the form of individuals who "shine brightly" and act as inspirations to others to promote standard love, peace, freedom type ideals. Ignoring the masses of people who are driven to suicide, hoplessness, murder and straight up psycopathy. Claiming that they do things like whisper ideas in the ears of powerful, influenctial people. Make people make mistakes to make it easier for their people to get into position they want them in. Lots and lots of subtle manipulation apparently to keep from being detected. Because as we all know the best vaccine to psychological manipulation is awareness that the manipulation is happening. And detection is a threat to the project.

And apparently all of this is being done for humanity's benefit. They walked in, decided to set up shop here. decided that humanity needed to learn this authoritarian lesson, and decided they were going to be the ones to teach it because of course they know best.

I have many issues with this. One is that, assuming this is all true, this isn't a lesson anyone needed to learn. They had to create and exacerbate problems out of thin air that otherwise would not have existed for the purpose of "teaching" humanity about the problems of authoritarianism among other things. That's like punching someone in the face to teach them why you shouldn't punch people in the face and then claiming the person should be happy to get the chance to learn this valuable lesson. Do it enough times and it really starts to look like its just an excuse to go around punching people in the face.

I could rant forever about this but it's late and I should probably go to bed.
That sounds exactly like a description of modern politics - but to be clear, you are claiming that those that do this are not simply incarnated humans.

David
 
#80
I'd like that too actually, if for no other reason than it would help with my training. Probably the most likely thing I could accomplish is inducing a shared dream or doing some kind of poltergiest. But the problem I always run into is that I can't control specifically when any of it will actually happen nor can I really tell when it's happening while in the projection especially for shared dreams. I mean for a poltergeist I could just look at a clock or something but that would probably lead into the next problem.

Awareness seems to be a confounding factor that I'm not sure how to deal with. Appearing to be capable of shifting the timeline off course so that the target "misses" the time space where the poltergiest/shared dream occured. The result is the same either way, nothing happens. This is why I don't just offer proof because I just plain can't yet, I'm just not skilled enough to consistently make this work. Part of that is because I don't actively practice poltergiesting or projection because I'm trying to achieve direct telekinesis and energy condensation.

Still if I can figure out a way around this I wouldn't mind at least making an attempt for funzies.
Suppose you simply induced a dream in some of us, and the test would be to determine if we could recognise and report on the dream. Shared dreams might be messed up by time zones!

If you are keen to try this, I would certainly start a new thread, or a PM with several participants (if you don't want this to be public). We would need a way for you to record the subject of a dream ahead of time, so that it could be revealed after the experiment was over.

David
 
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