Did science disprove Spiritual and supernatural?

Discussion in 'Extended Consciousness & Spirituality' started by Number 22, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    No science can't :D




    This morning I almost sock when i read about this.
    Sorry for the link to a post written in vietnamese, You can enable Google translate To translate the article into English
    http://www.chungta.com/nd/tu-lieu-tra-cuu/tam_linh_va_me_tin.html
    I tried to discuss about this article in my country forum, but most of them have a strong belief in Marx's materialism. So I want to try discussing on this forum.
    At first my english was so bad and sometimes meaningless, I'm trying to improve now. So I hope you folk can understand what I write.
    That article belongs to a forum website discuss about everything. I am really depressed about the things that materialist evangelists promote their dogma is science.
    The writer has gone too far in his statement.
    - He argues that Miler's experiments on life-formating elements deny the existence of souls and the existence of gods -> Consciousness is just brain activity and there is no such thing as afterlife. .
    - He misunderstood the points and limitations in spiritual study and argues that mental parasychology is foolish because it studies through anecdotal evidence, weak and evident can explain by him and because it studies things that he believes have been denied it should be false
    -He concludes with the argument that science has denied the existence of such things as spirituality or mystery and quoted the blackmore "law" that faith ignores all evidence.
    Not only that, many other articles of this forum are often accompanied by many b**s** materialistic explanations on psy such as.
    - Telepathy is caused by the alpha waves emanating from the brain.
    - Cases of ghosts are attributed to excess energy in the bones of the dead.
    - Nde is due to hallucinations.
    - Regeneration cases are explained by unconscious information.
    - The case of losing 90% of the brain or not having a brain does not exist because a normal brain is very difficult to create consciousness. (Many other materialists do not think so.)
    - Some monks have the ability to specialize and travel to other realms (and the writer believes it even though he constantly denies spiritual ability) and concludes that there are no realms for human existence. when death -> no soul / consciousness can exist beyond the body. (So what monks travel by I wonder?)
    And things like this are really accepted as science in my country. While the only ones who stand up against are usually those who lack the knowledge and resources in a bad way to counteract.
    While neutralists often offer such things as spiritual and scientific incompatibility and seemingly supportive of these anti spiritual things
    I really just want to ignore things like this but its ridiculous and the fact that many people actually believe this made me sick.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
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  2. Don't let it make you sick. There is nothing wrong with discussing the subject, but I think it's also important to remember that some people are here in the physical realm to have experiences they cannot have in the non-physical realm. One such type of experience is being a materialist. So it's okay for some people believe in materialism.

    It also helps to understand how cognitive bias works. It effects everyone, materialists and non-materialists. People will accept weak arguments that agree with their beliefs and ignore solid evidence that contradicts their beliefs. It's called confirmation bias. People use logic to defend their beliefs but they don't use logic to form their beliefs. We don't realize this, we do it automatically. People can be persuaded, but not with logic. People can be persuaded by psychological tricks. That's why materialists often resort to ridicule. They understand intuitively that ridicule is more persuasive than logic. There is no point in getting upset over it. It is human nature.
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2018/04/your-logical-mind-is-illusion.html

    But you might find these links (below) interesting. They won't convince a materialist who will ignore them. But they might help you and others who are not materialists to justify and maintain your beliefs despite the arguments of materialists.

    Origin of life:
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articl...-by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_ori_life

    (Intelligent design - all subjects)
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articles-and-links-arranged-by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_id

    Peer reviewed scientific studies on parapsychology:
    http://www.deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

    Uses of anecdotal evidence:
    https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_fallacies#skeptical_fallacies_anecdotes_reliable

    ESP cannot be produced by the brain:
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/near-death-experiences-and-afterlife.html#facts_esp

    NDE's cannot be explained by hallucinations or any other materialistic explanation:
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html

    Also relevant:

    Nobel Prize winners Max Planck, Erwin Schrödinger, Brian Josephson, Sir John Eccles, Eugene Wigner, George Wald and other great scientists and philosophers such as John von Neumann, Kurt Gödel, Wernher von Braun, Karl Popper, and Carl Jung believed consciousness is non-physical because of the evidence:
    http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers

    Nobel Prize winners Erwin Schrödinger, Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Guglielmo Marconi, Brian Josephson, William Phillips, Richard Smalley, Arno Penzias, Charles Townes, Arthur Compton, Antony Hewish, Christian Anfinsen, Walter Kohn, Arthur Schawlow and scientists, Charles Darwin, Sir Fred Hoyle, John von Neumann, Wernher von Braun, and Louis Pasteur, believed the scientific evidence demonstrates the existence of God or that the universe was designed:
    http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers

    Scientists are not infallible: Most Scientific Research Findings are False:
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articl...ubject.html#articles_by_subject_bogus_science
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
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  3. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    I have some spiritual experience that does not know whether it is an illusion or a coincidence. The first time I experienced this was when my grandmother died of suicide, then I was just a kid I hardly thought about it because I was so simple. One day later in the evening I was startled by the sound of my grandmother's whine even though it was late at night I tried to shake my brother next to wake up because I was scared after being too sleepy so I seemed to have fell asleep -> It may have been a dream, but I have never had a clear sound like it was, and I could have been delusional about some kind of sound, but the sound was really real. A few days later again in the early morning I saw a black silhouette moving like a movie with (6fps). I've heard some cases of darkness coming out of the eye socket due to (CO)poisoning. But this image came out from my grandmother's picture posture in the morning without any hallucinogenic conditions. both. Again my grandmother, my father had a dream about her seemingly miserable and wanted to tell him something, the next day the temple containing her tablet burned that night. There is an explanation for this case as we dream of thousands of dreams so the rate of polymerization is also very high.
    I have discussed these things with those who believe in materialism. All they throw at me are things like fake memory, madela effect or hallucination because I'm hungry. I want to discuss seriously but they seem to regard me as a religious fanatic, or a stupid idiot. When I still did not change my mind, they laughed and attacked religion (although I was not even a religion, and never mentioned religion when arguing) and ridiculed me as if I was a monkey who lives in a cave and does not know anything about science and tries to open my mind with inventions (though not scientifically), then throws red herring on me for cosmic issues. , physics and fictional explosions will destroy the universe, to attack religion again. And when I try to talk to those who seem neutral, they often avoid spiritual questions and assign it to the supernatural. Then evade or deny the evidence that it is not convincing. The case of bias I have encountered quite often in some places, who often avoid intellectuals, refuse to read the evidence, and attack weak targets.
    The statement I often encounter is that those who believe in spirituality have no knowledge or logic. It is I who remembers the statement of a doctor in the near-death forum declaring that he had never seen such nude stuff, and soon one of his patients got up and say he wrong.
     
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  4. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I think it is better to discuss these issues with people who understand more - such as folk here!

    Remember that there must be many experiences that are very probably paranormal, but that are hard to use as actual evidence.

    Try not to let it upset you - I think a lot of people experience things of this sort.

    David
     
  5. Imperial Philosopher

    Imperial Philosopher New

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    The meeting of science and spiritually, if such a thing is possible (and assuming spirit and such is a real thing) will be a very difficult and arduous journey. I mean, if you're looking for gods on Mount Olympus, or an old man with a long beard sitting on a throne on top of a cloud, you probably won't be finding anything. However, things like NDEs, psi, and other such things might lead us somewhere.

    Ultimately the difficulty is this is a matter where basically everyone has made up their mind. On the one side, there are the skeptics. To them, if you even so much as use the word "spirituality", you are a stupid delusional woo-peddler desperate to drag us into the dark ages, and you're wasting your time investigating things that so obviously do not and cannot exist. On the other hand, there are the true believers angry at what they call "pseudoskeptics" who are allegedly preserving a scientific orthodoxy, and trying to deconstruct everyone into mindless molecules or something along those lines. The prevailing mentality at the moment seems to lean towards the skeptics, which probably discourages people who might otherwise be interested in investigating anything deemed "paranormal" for fear of being called a crackpot kook. This leaves a handful of small, dedicated believers trying to look into the paranormal, who can of course safely all be dismissed as being kooks and crackpots.

    The simple fact of the matter is "science" hasn't really proved or disproved all that much with regards to the major paranormal topics we discuss because very little science is actually being done. There is a lot of ranting, flaming, debunkings, debunkings of debunkings, debates over debunkings of debunkings, arguments over debates over debunkings of debunkings, calling people frauds, calling each other "pseudo-" this and that, etc etc, but very little actual science being done, and practically none of what is being done is done by anyone who isn't strongly biased one way or the other.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  6. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Modern science doesn't tell much regarding these things brought up by you, original poster.

    If someone says yes or no, he says it in his own personal ease.

    Orthodox science doesn't claim a conclusion so carelessly, when confronting these huge questions, they will honestly say they don't know.

    But it is very reasonable for people to bring up the advance of modern materialistic science, and the lack of evidence information regarding paranormal or spiritual claims. What they said contain many facts. It is the information they provided that is meaningful and important, not the conclusion. No one can make a conclusion.
     
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  7. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Our objective evidence is really weak, I hope the Parapsychological will take its place, have the opportunity to expand the research to bring strong evidence.
     
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  8. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    I have a premonition you won't see that happen.

    I'm not meaning to disappoint you. But, think, if you were to be able to know, you would have grasped large amount of preamble clues.

    Don't you sense that something is purposely prohibiting our access to what we wish to know?
     
  9. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Well of course the meeting won't involve Mount Olympus residents ,or Yaweh! I am not quite sure what your views are (if in doubt, I suggest you read Irreducible Mind) but I think we are reaching a point where a lot of people want to move on from the question about whether psi exists, to the broader questions as to how it relates to normal physical reality.
    Well I think the other side may be crumbling, though simply not reading the evidence will continue to be a good strategy for a while!

    1) The question about the nature of consciousness is crumbling, Nagel and Christof Koch's reluctant shift to panpsychism are notable.

    2) I suspect that Darwin's Theory is in peril. This is an area in which the ID proponents (not all of them are Christian) are able to do real science - on fossils, and also exploring the feasibility of the concept that the fundamental parts of single cell life could have evolved by natural processes.

    3) There is plenty of experimentation going on, and it may be that someone is going to come up with undeniable evidence for psi phenomena.

    I think societal beliefs sometimes change very quickly.

    David
     
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  10. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    :( Sad
    But who know? °^°
    Everything is possible
     
  11. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Intelligent design does not seem to convince with people. Creations often use it as an excuse against evolution, which causes many evolution, to be mistaken.
    And many ids look like they are anti-science.
     
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    You absolutely need to confront the question, what does "Anti-science" mean?

    The phrase is a giveaway. If a scientist has a technically valid answer to the issues raised by ID research, you can be sure they will publish it, but if they have not, but still want to argue that it is true, they have to resort to mere rhetoric.

    David
     
  13. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    A a
    ;;/?
     

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