Do the entities sending us messages sometimes lie?

Discussion in 'Extended Consciousness & Spirituality' started by Alan Amsberg, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    Throughout some of the phenomena on Skeptiko there is evidence of entities (God/Spirits/Spirit Guides/Angels and maybe even Aliens) sending us messages. These messages can take a variety of forms (Andy Paquette dreams, Ian Rubenstein psychic stuff and coincidences, Robert Perry coincidences, Schwartz describes all of these etc).

    I think there is clear evidence that these entities don't answer the questions we really want answered, are obscure in their communications and I would even go so far as to say they can be evasive. But do they actually lie? What examples exist of communications from these entities which are lies?

    Thanks to all for any examples which can be offered. Note that I am after lies specifically. Clearly there is creepy stuff (demonic possession / alien abduction) but are there demonstrable lies?
     
  2. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    I don't know that there's evidence of entities.

    Beyond that what basis do you use for your assessment of any info? Rationality? Logic? The outer senses? The notion of a single physical reality? That you view some things as "creepy" seems to indicate that you're using a very human-centric set of parameters.

    To make it more plain . how would you determine if any set of info is a lie?
     
  3. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    @Alan Amsberg

    If you accept that entities may exist and communicate as a starting point then you might find "Hungry Ghosts" by Joe Fisher quite interesting.

    Joe was a journalist who initially started to receive 'channelled' information via a friend. Whilst often this was, to him, highly accurate, as the story unfolded it became clear the communicators were not who they claimed to be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
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  4. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    I would pose to you the same set of questions:

    What basis do you use for your assessment of any info? Rationality? Logic? The outer senses? The notion of a single physical reality?

    To make it more plain . how would you determine if any set of info is a lie?
     
  5. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Hi Saiko.

    No offence intended but I'm not really interested in that sort of debate. I am pretty sure I understand what the OP meant by telling lies.
     
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  6. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    I hadn't heard of Hungry Ghosts before (and obviously haven't read it yet) but it is fascinating to read the Amazon reviews of it. THANKS.
     
  7. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    You're welcome Alan. I wouldn't say Joe's experience was in anyway typical but it will answer your question perhaps.
     
  8. Rumspringa

    Rumspringa New

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    Er, I wouldn't say it was atypical, Obiwan. There are myriad examples of such entities being deceptive. And I tend to think it's the veil which facilitates this. Behind the veil, you can remain anonymous and pretend to be whoever you want. Plus you have access to the Akashic Record. If you put yourself in the shoes of disincarnate spirits, when you make contact with the living, their leverage over us is this all knowningness, access to our private memory and secrets. It would be enormously empowering to flaunt this knowledge and manipulate those who inhabit physical bodies, especially if you're disincarnate.

    The biggest parallel is how people behave in Internet forums when they hide behind the veil of anonymity. They can pretend to be whoever they want. Some lie with impunity or resort to threats, verbal abuse, tirades and rants. This type of behavior inevitably emerges when one has leverage over another, can hide under the veil, and cannot be held accountable.

     
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  9. perandre

    perandre Member

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    Hungry ghosts sound like what New Testament authors would call unclean spirits; they would be described as having access to information about the future etc, but no good intentions.

    That quote (Wikipedia) I think underline the similarities.
     
  10. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    I'd say that's an interesting analogy re trolls and other less obvious miscreants etc on the internet, the comparison hadn't occurred to me but I see it now. Good one! The reference you make to 'knowledge' being their only control in such situations seems to me broadly correct. By 'not typical' I meant across the record of purported communications. Although deceptive behaviour on the scale Joe Fisher reports isn't the norm IMHO, similar behaviour is certainly in evidence. Of course in practice it would often be the case that we might not know for sure if we were being told the entire truth in such situations even if a purported communication appeared to be, or genuinely was benign.

    There does sometimes seem to be an assumption that just because a message is from 'beyond the veil' as you put it, the communicator has any greater knowledge or insight then we have or has pure motives. This would indeed be most unwise, as it would be with similar contacts in our world.

    As in most interactions it pays to be circumspect :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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  11. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Hi perandre

    In the case of Joe Fisher I'm not sure there is much evidence of knowledge about the future, at least as I recall (it's been a while since I read it). What drew Joe in was their seeming knowledge about the past and of other countries and the gradual development of trust between him and the purported communicators. There was quite a lot of verifiable evidence given. It was quite insidious. The usual kind of thing: 'you're special', 'we have a link' etc. Clear manipulation if you know what you're looking for.

    In fact it seemed in the end he found out the possible true identity of at least one of the communicators which was very interesting (I wouldn't want to spoil the read by revealing more).

    Rumspringa's observation is a good one about behaviour we see here when some people think they have anonymity. From my reading of the subject, people are no better than they were here when they pass over, at least initially. Assuming we survive physical death at all of course.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  12. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    A couples points and questions:

    -"Most" of this stuff feels "wholesome." For example, most medium communications seem to exist to provide comfort to the living about relatives passed on etc.
    -But there are examples of trouble. Clearly these examples extend to medium stuff. Do they also extend to synchronicities? Could they extend to precognitive dreams?

    How do we evaluate?

    For example, I actually have a serious mental illness (BiPolar disorder) and in 2009 I had a psychotic episode which put me in a psychiatric hospital. This was my first (and only so far) episode. In it I had a complex delusion about being one of the two Witnesses of the Apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses). Associated with this are a couple of synchronicities which reinforced my delusion.

    Anyway, I got better but in July last year there was something which brought it back to a certain extent. I wasn't psychotic but this thing got it all going again a bit. It is all hard to explain but basically I cannot believe this thing was a coincidence so therefore it has some "meaning". But it has caused me distress. So I am left with this:

    -Is it a coincidence and something I am making meaning from? (e.g. it is nothing really) This is the "rational" choice but hard to accept because of the particulars and because, in my world view, meaningful coincidences do exist. That said, because of my illness I am very sensitive to "signs" (real or imagined).
    -Is it a communication from God that I really am a Witness of the Apocalypse (a grandiose delusion if there ever was one). I keep coming back to this but I don't really believe it but I am vulnerable due to it.
    -Is it a "good" communication which is symbolic? For example, do I have a little bit of a "life mission" to be a little bit like a Witness?
    -Is it from a "demon" with ill (or just mischievous) intent? That's what I want to consider with this thread. An interesting point from an Amazon Hungry Ghosts review:

    "While it is dangerous to be unaware of such dark possibilities and manipulative entities, it may also be dangerous to cast your attention in their direction. Attention is not just internal, it is also a beacon visible to others, and not all of those others are visible to us."

    Before this event (let's call it the 23 July '13 email), I was intensely "fishing" for contact with my Spirit Guides by typing stuff into Google and seeing what came back. By the way, I know this is unhealthy. An interesting idea I had not given my credence to is that perhaps I was broadcasting a "beacon" to "bad" as well as "good" spirits and so they arranged the 23 July '

    So, was my delusion about the Witnesses a "beacon" to some entity who did the "signs" back in 2009 and then reinforced my delusion in July?
    -Is it something else? Something I have not considered.

    I know no one can answer this question. To explain it all I would need to write a book... Anyway, I offer it as some explanation as to why this is a topic of interest to me.

    Let me also say that, in a way, I should stay away from all this paranormal stuff for my mental health. I find this hard to do. It is a strong personal interest of mine. I am interested in learning the truth about it all. Ideally I should let it be but I see God in it all and so want to understand God and so am drawn back to it.

    Anyway, some personal musings. BTW, Alan Amsberg is not my real name which is one reason I am prehaps willing to share these things on this forum. So, anonymity on the internet is also an aid to honesty sometimes.
     
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  13. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    Oops. Got posted accidentally before I was finished.

    Corrected text is:
    Before this event (let's call it the 23 July '13 email), I was intensely "fishing" for contact with my Spirit Guides by typing stuff into Google and seeing what came back. By the way, I know this is unhealthy. An interesting idea I had not given my credence to is that perhaps I was broadcasting a "beacon" to "bad" as well as "good" spirits and so they arranged the 23 July '13 email to take me for a ride?

    Let me also say that I am not psychotic now, that I see a psychiatrist regularly and that I take drugs for my condition and that I am not paranoid about being persecuted by spirits. I was, however, disturbed for months after the 23 July '13 email and while it has faded I still don't know what to think about it. I wish I could discount it as a coincidence magnified by my previous illness but I don't really believe that.

    Actually, it would be great if I could identify this as a mischievous spirit as then I could discard it.

    I suppose the truth is that there will never be a straight answer so I just need to leave it behind me. That's been tough for me though (at least over the last week - I was doing absolutely fine for the 6/7 weeks before that).
     
  14. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Hi "Alan". :)

    I didn't assume it was your real name. Funnily enough I'm not really Obiwan :)

    I wouldn't like to comment on your personal situation as I am not qualified. Save to say a healthy all-round caution is prudent in any new area of interest. Information is the key to making decisions, as in most areas of life IMHO. Whether or not such entities really exist, I'd suggest reading more and widely before embarking on attempts to communicate if you have any reservations. I guess many of us bring some sort of religious baggage with us too.

    To my mind there is difference between showing genuine interest in this subject and researching it, and actually inviting communication. Fear isn't generally a positive mindset for any endeavour, however healthy-caution seems always sensible.

    Only you can decide if you can approach this with an appropriate mindset. If you can't at the moment, perhaps it is best left alone until you feel you can.
     
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  15. perandre

    perandre Member

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    Access to hidden knowledge was also the case with some evil spirits/demons of the bible. From reviews, it seems like a lot of people makes the link.

    If that term is appropriate, I think it would serve as a clearer warning to those involved. Proper labels might even save lives, jugding from story of Fisher.
     
  16. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    What do you think the warning is exactly?
     
  17. perandre

    perandre Member

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    Disclaimer: I'm a christian, with a degree in theology. I'm here to learn, though.

    The reasoning for the warning, IMO, would be: This or that spirit seems to deliver messages that are impure (not all true, or worse); it's an impure spirit. In a christian tradition, impure spirits should not be allowed to speak ( http://bible.com/111/mrk.1.24-25.niv ). A more commonly used term, is of course "demon". I think that label would serve as a clear warning sign from further communication with that entity; even popular culture teaches that.

    In the quoted verse (and others), the spirit is clearly labeled as bad. In the books of the bible, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground in the spiritual realm when it comes to talking entities; either they are BAD (stay away) or GOOD. I understand quoting bible verses can be controversial, but in this discussion, I found it relevant.
     
  18. perandre

    perandre Member

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    I almost forgot the original question. Here goes:

    I did observe an experience years ago, where "something" manifested in a person. Most of the messages coming out, were lies. An example would be that some terrible things would happen that very night, etc. It's not possible for me to know if it really was a spirit speaking or not, but coming from a christian background, it felt just like a scene in the bible. The whole thing had a happy ending, btw.
     
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  19. perandre

    perandre Member

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    Thanks for sharing your story. Since you asked, I would like to try to answer:

    To state the obvious (as you said yourself), I know for sure that you are not one of the "two witnesses" (and that's the theologian speaking. All the people you respect would also agree). I also know that whatever would communicate something like that, is not helping you; it's not even half true (i.e. it's a lie). It's not the God of the bible speaking, and it's not an angel (in the heavenly sense), as they don't lie or make your life miserable. Sticking to the biblical framework, it could for sure be a demon communicating you.

    Another, perhaps more probable, theory, is something I read about in a book written by a person who was one of the lucky few to get 100% well from schizophrenia (through therapy). She's a therapist today. Basically, she underlined the importance of seeing that the voices communicating with you, is actually yourself. She described it as agonazing to face it, but once she realized that it was herself communicating to herself, a lot of the "insane" stuff she did started to make sense. It turned out the voices, the destructive habits (eating plastic, etc), made perfect sense, once interpreted as meaningful communication to herself, from herself.

    I have no medical expertise. I would, however, try to see if there is a way to interpret your dream-like illusions so that they make sense to your hurts or traumas as a human being. What if God has nothing to do with those weird experiences, it's just you trying to communicate or express something really important to yourself? Even the weirdest delusions somehow relates to just very human survival strategies.

    In my opinion, I think the only "paranormal" thing you need to know in your quest for truth, is summarized in the message of Eben Alexander (and tons of other NDEers). It's all about being loved.

    I'm also of the opinion, that since this time in this realm is temporary, it's important to really be truly human while we are here. We have human needs, and now is the time to make sure they are met (emotionally and physically). Later, it's a different game; things will probably get more paranormal than we could ever imagine :)
     
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  20. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    @perandre

    I'd be careful about giving advice on mental health issues unless it's asked for and you know what you're talking about.

    Also, I have to say I personally have very little interest in Christian theology or the bible as any kind if authority. I guess that's my disclaimer :)

    That said, I'd agree if someone lies to you it would be unwise to pay much heed to their words once their lies have been uncovered.

    You seem to have a fearful and somewhat biased view of the nature of purported communication from the 'spirit world'. I guess maybe that comes from your religious beliefs.

    Eben Alexander's NDE looks to me like one of the less evidential examples of it's genre.
     

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