Do you think Alex could score an interview with Uri Geller?

This conversation is a variant of the "deep issue" with all psi rhetoric that I have brought up in other threads. To paraphrase it for those who don't want to bother with those threads. "The paranormal is something that appears to exist only so long as you view it from a distance, but it evaporates when you attempt to examine it close up."
As someone who needs glasses as I have grown older, I completely sympathize. However, to say it comes in focus when viewed at a distance, in no way says that it is not detected when viewed close up or detectable with structured information gathering.
 
As someone who needs glasses as I have grown older, I completely sympathize. However, to say it comes in focus when viewed at a distance, in no way says that it is not detected when viewed close up or detectable with structured information gathering.

Well, I don't think that's how it behaves. Quite the opposite, in fact.
 
Bishop,

I wonder how things would look if all the ψ results with decent effect sizes had been taken up by 'conventional' researchers and either duplicated or convincingly refuted.

Think of the really striking examples:

Sheldrake's dog experiments, various telephone telepathy tests, and staring experiments.

Dean Radin's presentiment result.

Maybe some experiments analogous to those that Alex did with a medium.

Remote viewing experiments.

All these experiments seem to be exactly what you are looking for. I agree that it is extraordinarily frustrating that these and others are not taken up mainstream. As I have already said, I think the blame lies squarely with mainstream science.

BTW, have you viewed this video?


David
 
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Uri Geller completely lost me when he claimed he made a soccer ball move with the power of telepathy from a helicopter over Wembley Stadium during Euro96 which caused the player to miss the penalty.

I truly believe Geller has displayed amazing ability as part of his work with the CIA..... but now he is a nut. He has no credibility whatsoever.
 
Uri Geller completely lost me when he claimed he made a soccer ball move with the power of telepathy from a helicopter over Wembley Stadium during Euro96 which caused the player to miss the penalty.

I truly believe Geller has displayed amazing ability as part of his work with the CIA..... but now he is a nut. He has no credibility whatsoever.

He might have no credibility whatsover, but I'd be surprised if it was because he is a nut. He seems like an extremely intelligent, charming, and calculating individual with pretty firm faculties.
 
He might have no credibility whatsover, but I'd be surprised if it was because he is a nut. He seems like an extremely intelligent, charming, and calculating individual with pretty firm faculties.

I struggle to believe that an "extremely intelligent, charming, and calculating individual with pretty firm faculties" who is trying to prove to the world he has PSI abilities, would think it's a good idea to make up a story like that.

So either he is telling the truth... or he is completely and utterly deluded. I am going with deluded.
 
Uri Geller completely lost me when he claimed he made a soccer ball move with the power of telepathy from a helicopter over Wembley Stadium during Euro96 which caused the player to miss the penalty.

I truly believe Geller has displayed amazing ability as part of his work with the CIA..... but now he is a nut. He has no credibility whatsoever.

Did he really say that? Seems like a really cheap way to use a wonderful ability. "I suppose I COULD move that nail off the road so it doesn't cause a blowout, and I COULD jam that gun to stop that robbery, and I COULD move that plaque to clear that artery, but I'm far too preoccupied playing real-life LEGO soccer." Sigh.
 
I struggle to believe that an "extremely intelligent, charming, and calculating individual with pretty firm faculties" who is trying to prove to the world he has PSI abilities, would think it's a good idea to make up a story like that.

So either he is telling the truth... or he is completely and utterly deluded. I am going with deluded.

There are other options. One is lying/fraud but there's another one that I think better applies to Geller: he's an entertainer. He calls himself a "mystifier" on his website which I interpret as a type of magician - or at least a type of entertainer. A very talented one from what I've seen. He's a showman.
And that's, I think most likely, what you were seeing with that ball event. He was putting on a show.

With regard to his mystifier-type stuff, I really don't have much of an issue with Geller. He seems to be the type who is always "on" (or at least a large portion of the time, don't know what he's like in private." Even when he has people over to his house he seems to be performing. The performance seems to be an integrated part of his life and no doubt contributes to his massive success. It takes a great amount of focus and will to be able to do that. I certainly couldn't. And he seems to be quite good at it. I enjoy watching Geller. He always seems to be quite obviously doing magic to me (ie: when he's bending spoons look at his hands, they always seem to be very deliberately held - ie: perfectly straight out, or his arm being kept very still so it doesn't pivot). This seems to me to look like magic tricks. And I don't have a problem with that. I think his showmanlike presence indicates that he's doing entertainment even if he doesn't specifically state it.

I don't think magicians should be required to take the mystery out of their performance in the style that they want. For some magicians, part of their act is that they will say - I'm going to trick you now, I bet you can't figure out how. Others take on the act of someone with real powers - putting on a generally exagerated personality, with the flair to go with it.

As for trying to prove to the world that he has PSI abilities (when he knows he's doing magic tricks) - I don't think I'd quite put that in the fraud category either. I think it mixes in quite naturally with his holisitic - always on - entertainer personality. And there is a certain appeal to the challenge of whether he can get away with it. Yes, its dishonest, but its done in a very entertaining and engaging way. There is societal value to that. (including - for that matter, the mutually beneficial adversarial relationship he has with Randi - I wouldn't be surprised if they get together in secret from time to time with a glass of champagne and a stogey toasting how much attention and money they have generated off their decades long "feud".)

I find it hard to get my anger up against entertainers like Geller. He's an entertainer, and people tend to get their money's worth when they see him. (contrast that to the Peter Popoff type, who pretended to have psychic powers in order to fleece vulnerable christians).

Where Geller is potentially on dicier ground, in terms of possible fraud, is where he hires himself out to companies to help them prospect for underground materials. I don't know if there's any truth to that - I haven't looked into whether he has actually been hired, or whether he just says he has.
 
There are other options. One is lying/fraud but there's another one that I think better applies to Geller: he's an entertainer. He calls himself a "mystifier" on his website which I interpret as a type of magician - or at least a type of entertainer. A very talented one from what I've seen. He's a showman.
And that's, I think most likely, what you were seeing with that ball event. He was putting on a show.

With regard to his mystifier-type stuff, I really don't have much of an issue with Geller. He seems to be the type who is always "on" (or at least a large portion of the time, don't know what he's like in private." Even when he has people over to his house he seems to be performing. The performance seems to be an integrated part of his life and no doubt contributes to his massive success. It takes a great amount of focus and will to be able to do that. I certainly couldn't. And he seems to be quite good at it. I enjoy watching Geller. He always seems to be quite obviously doing magic to me (ie: when he's bending spoons look at his hands, they always seem to be very deliberately held - ie: perfectly straight out, or his arm being kept very still so it doesn't pivot). This seems to me to look like magic tricks. And I don't have a problem with that. I think his showmanlike presence indicates that he's doing entertainment even if he doesn't specifically state it.

I don't think magicians should be required to take the mystery out of their performance in the style that they want. For some magicians, part of their act is that they will say - I'm going to trick you now, I bet you can't figure out how. Others take on the act of someone with real powers - putting on a generally exagerated personality, with the flair to go with it.

As for trying to prove to the world that he has PSI abilities (when he knows he's doing magic tricks) - I don't think I'd quite put that in the fraud category either. I think it mixes in quite naturally with his holisitic - always on - entertainer personality. And there is a certain appeal to the challenge of whether he can get away with it. Yes, its dishonest, but its done in a very entertaining and engaging way. There is societal value to that. (including - for that matter, the mutually beneficial adversarial relationship he has with Randi - I wouldn't be surprised if they get together in secret from time to time with a glass of champagne and a stogey toasting how much attention and money they have generated off their decades long "feud".)

I find it hard to get my anger up against entertainers like Geller. He's an entertainer, and people tend to get their money's worth when they see him. (contrast that to the Peter Popoff type, who pretended to have psychic powers in order to fleece vulnerable christians).

Where Geller is potentially on dicier ground, in terms of possible fraud, is where he hires himself out to companies to help them prospect for underground materials. I don't know if there's any truth to that - I haven't looked into whether he has actually been hired, or whether he just says he has.

I totally understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. The challenge I have with allowing magicians and entertainers to keep the mystery alive is when their work tries to step into the realm of science, whether directly or indirectly. We all are acutely aware that accredited scientists are fiercely struggling to determine what, if anything, is out there beyond our brain, and people call the phenomena psi. Good men and women are putting themselves in the crosshairs of losing their reputations, their jobs, their very minds, for the sake of proving to mankind that we have powers we can't yet comprehend, that we go on when our bodies fall away, that there is meaning to the universe.

And then steps in Mr. Geller. One side of the aisle holds up his picture and declares, "here be a fraud," and they use him to dismiss the entire field of parapsychology, while the other side holds up his picture and retorts, "here be the real deal," and use him as inspiration to pursue their own psychic skills. All the while the guy just sits back with a wry grin, shrugs his shoulders, and whispers, "oh, it's for me to know and you to find out, tee hee!"

So for me, when a magician's work begins to influence the perception and purity of a controversial and vital field of science, then yes, he needs to come out and say either, "no, I have no paranormal powers," or, "yes, it's all real." Until then, he's showering us with pretty lights and colors, but he's hurting the people whose work matters the most.
 
I totally understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. The challenge I have with allowing magicians and entertainers to keep the mystery alive is when their work tries to step into the realm of science, whether directly or indirectly. We all are acutely aware that accredited scientists are fiercely struggling to determine what, if anything, is out there beyond our brain, and people call the phenomena psi. Good men and women are putting themselves in the crosshairs of losing their reputations, their jobs, their very minds, for the sake of proving to mankind that we have powers we can't yet comprehend, that we go on when our bodies fall away, that there is meaning to the universe.

And then steps in Mr. Geller. One side of the aisle holds up his picture and declares, "here be a fraud," and they use him to dismiss the entire field of parapsychology, while the other side holds up his picture and retorts, "here be the real deal," and use him as inspiration to pursue their own psychic skills. All the while the guy just sits back with a wry grin, shrugs his shoulders, and whispers, "oh, it's for me to know and you to find out, tee hee!"

So for me, when a magician's work begins to influence the perception and purity of a controversial and vital field of science, then yes, he needs to come out and say either, "no, I have no paranormal powers," or, "yes, it's all real." Until then, he's showering us with pretty lights and colors, but he's hurting the people whose work matters the most.

I hear you, and appreciate the concern. I have also long said that scientists should focus on the stars - ie: the people showing big abilities. On the other hand, some judgment perhaps needs to be used. Maybe the big flashy entertainer, who constantly teases, is not the guy to pick. Again: he is just so obviously deliberately entertaining all the time that

On the other hand, perhaps there could be away to use such an individual - though it would involve making part of the science entertaiment as well. Set it up as challenge - the scientists vs. geller. Maybe it becomes a documentary special. Funded from the tv shows. The scientists use the best protocols that they can but they don't pretend its serious science. Rather, they use it to promote and draw attention to the real science and talk about that on the show. if they can't bust geller they don't declare him real - but admit they couldn't figure it out. And maybe they use that sense of mystery to suggest doing more experiements with others. That they want to get to the bottom of this and will work hard to do it. Generate interest for the work.

I'm not sure if the cons outweigh the pros here, but one way or the other I think parapsychologists need to accept that there is a public relations aspect to science funding. Bem understood this when he went on Stephen Colbert's show. This is the age we live it. Science funding is public funding. The bureaucrats deciding who to allocate funds to are directed by the politicians in charge. If you want the politicians to direct more funds to parapsychology then they have to see the political need for it.

Incidentally, while I hear about the funding problem, I've never seen any stats on how funding for parapsycholgy differs from funding for other small fields. I have no perpective on whether grant proposals are submitted to the various public funds that meet all their criteria but are rejected mainly because they are parapsychological in nature. I understand that getting grants approved in any field is pretty tough and that many are rejected in most fields. Every year the parapsychological journals seem to fill up with new studies, so money is coming in. I'm curious as to what projects have been submitted that were rejected in a manner that could be labelled discriminatory. (I'm separating this by the way from the question of whether people are not entering parapsychology due to negative stigma - that's more vis-a-vis their peers and bosses, not about grant approvals). This might be for another thread though.
 
I hear you, and appreciate the concern. I have also long said that scientists should focus on the stars - ie: the people showing big abilities. On the other hand, some judgment perhaps needs to be used. Maybe the big flashy entertainer, who constantly teases, is not the guy to pick. Again: he is just so obviously deliberately entertaining all the time that

Perhaps the reason researchers don't turn to the big names is because they demand too much money for the time? If I was a psychic medium (I wish) who made a name for himself after 20 years and amassed a legion of fans, I'd be available for an interview, sure, but Id need to be compensated in advance if I was going to be put on the spot for a test, and potentially risk scandal. It's the logical response whether I had the ability or not.

Besides, people LOVE a great underdog story more than a familiar name. It's way easier for the average Joe to identify with the soccer mom who's been shown to communicate with her dead husband through the mirror. I think the smaller the name, the better for the researcher and us.

On the other hand, perhaps there could be away to use such an individual - though it would involve making part of the science entertaiment as well. Set it up as challenge - the scientists vs. geller. Maybe it becomes a documentary special. Funded from the tv shows. The scientists use the best protocols that they can but they don't pretend its serious science. Rather, they use it to promote and draw attention to the real science and talk about that on the show. if they can't bust geller they don't declare him real - but admit they couldn't figure it out. And maybe they use that sense of mystery to suggest doing more experiements with others. That they want to get to the bottom of this and will work hard to do it. Generate interest for the work.

I'm not sure if the cons outweigh the pros here, but one way or the other I think parapsychologists need to accept that there is a public relations aspect to science funding. Bem understood this when he went on Stephen Colbert's show. This is the age we live it. Science funding is public funding. The bureaucrats deciding who to allocate funds to are directed by the politicians in charge. If you want the politicians to direct more funds to parapsychology then they have to see the political need for it.

I took issue with your first paragraph because for me, once you put science and spirituality in the hands of TV execs, it becomes Abbott and Costello Meet the Jersey Shore. However, your following paragraph was so spot on! Consciousness and psi research need to be made to be seen as both hip and vital to national security, the same way solar power has gotten such a boost in the last decade. Not sure how to get it from here to a grassroots movement, up to Capitol Hill, though. Viral hashtag, maybe?

Incidentally, while I hear about the funding problem, I've never seen any stats on how funding for parapsycholgy differs from funding for other small fields. I have no perpective on whether grant proposals are submitted to the various public funds that meet all their criteria but are rejected mainly because they are parapsychological in nature. I understand that getting grants approved in any field is pretty tough and that many are rejected in most fields. Every year the parapsychological journals seem to fill up with new studies, so money is coming in. I'm curious as to what projects have been submitted that were rejected in a manner that could be labelled discriminatory. (I'm separating this by the way from the question of whether people are not entering parapsychology due to negative stigma - that's more vis-a-vis their peers and bosses, not about grant approvals). This might be for another thread though.

Also consider how few departments, let alone schools, there are dedicated to the subject. But you're right, I do think this topic merits a new thread... You do it.
 
There are other options. One is lying/fraud but there's another one that I think better applies to Geller: he's an entertainer. He calls himself a "mystifier" on his website which I interpret as a type of magician - or at least a type of entertainer. A very talented one from what I've seen. He's a showman.
And that's, I think most likely, what you were seeing with that ball event. He was putting on a show.

Sorry can't accept he is branding himself as an "entertainer".

When you claim to have PSI ability all your life and then claim to use "Telepathy" to move a soccer ball... then he is claiming to have PSI ability. I don't see Dynamo or David Copperfield claiming they have PSI powers. I didn't see offering their time to be tested by a team like SRI to see if they can really do paranormal things.

For Geller to be nothing more than a magician and entertainer... means he has been nothing but a troll since the 1970's. I don't know anyone that pretends to be a Psychic in the 1970's doing it to troll still 45 years later. If he was just a magician or entertainer like James Randi... he would have come out with glee long ago and admitted he conned SRI by using magic to believe he had PSI ability. He would sell endless books on just that topic alone.

Nah the guy is just like other people I have known who used to be good Psychics/Mediums... they've crossed that fine line to delusional.
 

Wow, he said WAY more than that! He tapped into the positive vibrations of England supporters, beamed them to the players, moved the ball, AND willed the goalie to dive at the ball when he needed to. Incredible! And all because England's his favorite team!

All I can really say is, F*CK YOU, GELLER

I'm sorry, I have to stand with the debunkers on this one. Good heavens, I don't care if he has powers, if he does he's fragrantly abusing them, he needs to step out of the spotlight. My goodness, what a total ass!

BTW, it's good to see you around, Frank, how you been?
 
You guys perhaps didn't see the show in the UK where he "sent popcorn back in time."

That must be about 20 years ago, perhaps 25. I laughed and left, even back then.
 
Bishop,

I wonder how things would look if all the ψ results with decent effect sizes had been taken up by 'conventional' researchers and either duplicated or convincingly refuted.

Think of the really striking examples:

Sheldrake's dog experiments, various telephone telepathy tests, and staring experiments.

Dean Radin's presentiment result.

Maybe some experiments analogous to those that Alex did with a medium.

Remote viewing experiments.

All these experiments seem to be exactly what you are looking for. I agree that it is extraordinarily frustrating that these and others are not taken up mainstream. As I have already said, I think the blame lies squarely with mainstream science.

BTW, have you viewed this video?


David

1. Do you think Sheldrake's friend can perform this ability "on demand" and with as much accuracy as Sheldrake claimed
2. Do you think the staring effect is something than can be increased with practice as Sheldrake claimed
 
Wow, he said WAY more than that! He tapped into the positive vibrations of England supporters, beamed them to the players, moved the ball, AND willed the goalie to dive at the ball when he needed to. Incredible! And all because England's his favorite team!

All I can really say is, F*CK YOU, GELLER

I'm sorry, I have to stand with the debunkers on this one. Good heavens, I don't care if he has powers, if he does he's fragrantly abusing them, he needs to step out of the spotlight. My goodness, what a total ass!

BTW, it's good to see you around, Frank, how you been?

Just out of curiosity, what is your basis for making this judgement? Is it not possible that Geller was able to actually do this?
 
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