Doubts about the moon landings

#1
Here is my stance. I don't know if man has been to the moon. Considering that there have been many intriguing samples that have come from the moon including samples of vitrification, concluding the moon has been subject to outburst from the Sun indicating super flare or mini nova events. I conclude that the lunar missions, and many other space missions were to establish something that has been covered up. That being that the Sun does indeed micro nova cyclically. These samples could also have been gathered by probes, but I believe they have been there, and probably are even now but it is not by the means that we know of. Yes I am suggesting a secret space program.

I spent 12 months analyzing the footage from one mission, Apollo 16. There are several conclusions. The footage is fake. The other options are that there is an atmosphere on the moon hence the sound, gravity varies and for some reason low gravity entails moving in slow motion at precise intervals of exacting frame rates. It also appears to make it difficult for astronauts to crouch but not jump.

For anyone interested here are my videos of that investigation. I discovered things that no one has ever done in the many decades of this theory. Depending on where you live you may not be able to view them, it was for sometime shadowed banned. I have had several conversations with people who have been unable to view them. I am not sure where this stands today. I have never had many views. So by all means check them out, You'll be helping me out. Much is explained in the videos. I saw no need to continue with it, it was very labor intensive and I no longer have the time. Perhaps one day I will analyze other missions frame by frame as I did this one.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKbJt1HaiCHAgCbmp0joUHQ/videos

This was my most significant discovery, as well as the extraction of the astronauts footsteps you can see in the larger audio analysis at the link above.


Confirmation of precise frame rates to account for gravitational effects. Here is my gravity analysis.


Here I have reversed engineered the footage by using precise frame rates to simulate lunar gravity. It is no coincidence that these frame rate are absolutely specific and work in every single case. There is also the existence of what is called a 3:5 pulldown. This occurs when regular film speed of 24 fps is converted to NTSC roughly 30 FPS resulting in a duplicate frame every 5th frame. The only possibility is that the original 30FPS was converted to film, losing 6 frames a second and then for some reason converted back again. The other possibility is simply a conversion of film speed to NTSC. About 80% of the footage is like this. The rest has different ratios that have basically mangled the actual time rate and is reconstructed with multiple duplicate frames. This is the industry I work in. This is my field of expertise. I also did extensive restoration of the footage, so you can enjoy a clarity that is magnitudes above that of the originals. Well actually there are no originals, they were taped over. And all the technology has also been lost.


This is not the place to discuss this, I post this because you have attempted to diminish my character by labeling me as a fringe conspiracy nut. You are getting desperate now Laird. Perhaps I am a fringe conspiracy theorist. In fact yes I am, but nether the less I bring actual evidence to support my claims, not just copy and pasted things but my own personal analysis. No one has been able to refute what I have discovered without having to defy the laws of physics, make of it what you will. I stand behind it. And I challenge NASA to get in their vacuum chamber and prove it! Or rather falsify it!

Incidentally, re your first video analysing the sounds in the moon landing, which you embedded, I wonder whether you might consider that the objects which made the sounds were connected via an unbroken chain of matter to the astronauts' suits, such that the sound could have travelled to the microphones in their suits via that route? I haven't looked at the other video beyond the first few seconds.
Of course, this is the most common point that is brought up. Basically it never happened once in any other spacewalk for decades and has never ever recurred. Whilst on the surface the microphones operate in VOX mode, (voice operated). The sound inside the suit is not silent. There are cooling systems buzzing, air supply whistling and even the astronauts breath. There is a threshold level when the microphones are activated. the volume must be above all of the background noise of the suit in order to be activated. If the mere tapping of a rock is able to be transferred through layers of liquid filled tubing and layers of insulation and latex to then vibrate the air within the suit and helmet and then activate the microphone then nearly every single action would resonate inside the suit activating the microphone constantly. This does not happen and has never happened even with using hammers and high powered drills in the decades of actual spacewalks for installations and repairs. I have several real astronauts on record stating they absolutely do not hear a thing when using tools on space walks. including statements confirming that the suit does not act like a drum. So someone is lying here, and i do believe the actual astronauts conducting the installations and repairs in low Earth orbit.

We are talking about a minuscule amount of energy. Not only that but the point of contact is between the rover seat and the rock not the suit. The wave of energy is first absorbed into the rock itself and the seat. This is the tapping of a rock for Christ sake.

Despite all of this, it is all inconsequential as there is no contact with the suit in the many other sounds produced, such as the closing and opening of the seat. Yet another unsupported theory must be invented to account for that.
 
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#2
Of course, this is the most common point that is brought up.
That's probably because it's correct...

Basically it never happened once in any other spacewalk for decades and has never ever recurred.
Oh?

Spacewalk Sights and Sounds Captured By GoPro | Video


I have several real astronauts on record stating they absolutely do not hear a thing when using tools on space walks.
Perhaps, then, you should talk to the astronaut Terry Virts, who recorded the above video.

there is no contact with the suit in the many other sounds produced, such as the closing and opening of the seat.
Like I said, there is an unbroken chain of matter. Both the seat and the suit are connected via the lunar surface.

Do not talk about this here in this thread please. This is my last comment on this for this thread, I will ask that further ones be deleted.
If you want to shift this conversation to an appropriate thread, then I'm happy to do that - though a better course of action IMO would be for you to simply concede that you have erred. Perhaps if you do want to respond to this post, you could do so in the existing thread on this topic, Wagging the Moondoggie.
 
#3
That's probably because it's correct...
Sigh! Ok, this is too good to pass up. I can't help myself. let me educate you. You simply saw the title space walk and sounds and thought it meant something that it is not.. I have seen the video before. I have done extensive research, many many months over your one time google. Spoken to physics majors and my own professors when I was studying. I have passed the sounds through forensic software.

Those are microphones noises and vibrations transmitting though the hull and whatever the go pro is attached to. All hard surfaces that are very conductive to sound. There are no external noises at all. Good grief man. That is completely expected! It is in no way related. If there was a microphone attached to the LRV then this would indeed be related and make sense. This was not the case. There were no microphones on the LRV. There are actually dozens and dozens of examples like the single one I exposed.

Sounds can be transmitted through direct contact with hard fittings on the suit as well, much like what we are hearing here, but the suit itself is flexible and does not act as a drum. It would also be possible to transmit sound with direct contact with the helmet of an astronaut. These are hard surfaces and there is air inside the helmet. You could actually talk to each other without microphones through direct contact. You simply do not understand what you are talking about.

I really don't want to do a thread or reply to one on this matter, I am done with this topic, I have satisfied my need to know, and I don't care what anyone else wants to believe. I do not wish to discuss it, for exactly the reasons you just exposed! I do not have the patience for these types of arguments from people who just want to make stuff up. Who have sub levels of understanding of physics and suffer from quick think and poor logic skills. It is far too taxing. Sorry no offense, but it is the truth. This is why I left skeptiko in the first place. Do you wish me to leave again? Well by now you would probably like that, since you have lowered yourself to such fallacious tactics and shown me your true character.

Perhaps you better educate these astronauts with your "logic" and understanding of "basic" physics. They seem to need help as well. Send them the video!
What Sounds Do Astronauts Hear During a Spacewalk?

Answer by Garrett Reisman, former NASA astronaut: Mostly what you hear is the sound of the pumps and fans that circulate air and water through your suit. It’s not terribly annoying or anything, but it’s not the silent lonely environment with no sound other than your own breathing like often depicted in the movies. Plus, you are wearing a headset so you have the sound of your crewmates and the folks in Mission Control talking to you fairly regularly. It is true, however, that sound cannot travel in a vacuum so you do not hear things outside. When you drive a bolt or tap a piece of equipment with a tool, you don’t hear a thing.

This is the exact scenario!

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/10/what-sounds-do-astronauts-hear-during-a-spacewalk.html

Interview with NASA astronaut

NASA astronaut Michael Massimino has logged over 30 hours of spacewalking during two missions on the space shuttle to service the Hubble Space Telescope. He has performed four spacewalks, the longest of which was around eight hours.

Rojas: When you are doing spacewalks is there actually sound in space? Are you able to hear things while you are out there?

Massimino: Well, the only thing you can hear is what is piped in through your headset, so in other words if you were to take a hammer and bang on the spacecraft, you wouldn’t hear that. The people inside might hear it, because they have air inside of there, but you have no way to get that sound. So the only thing you hear is the electronic signal that comes in through your headset. So you hear conversations, people talk to you and you can talk to them.

http://www.openminds.tv/nasa-astronaut-discusses-gravity-and-the-dangers-of-spacewalking-1157/24140

This is the exact scenario!

There is NO WAY to get that sound!

Just for Kids from NASA itself, right up your alley Laird, try and learn something.

Is there any sound on the Moon?

Sound needs something to travel through to get from one place to another. On the Moon, since there is no air, sound cannot travel above the surface. So, there are no sounds on the surface of the Moon. When the Apollo astronauts were out on the Moon's surface, they could only talk to each other, and to mission control, by using the radios in their air filled helmets. Even when the astronaut in the photo to the right, hit a metal tube into the ground with a hammer, no sound was made.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110719235745/http://lunarscience.nasa.gov/kids/moon_sound

This is the exact scenario!

Like I said, there is an unbroken chain of matter. Both the seat and the suit are connected via the lunar surface.
So let me get this straight. These astronauts must be full of shit, is that right? Well they must be, there is no way around it Laird. In your own words please concede that you have erred! I will gladly accept your apology. You brought this up to discredit me Laird. An apology is merited.

So... the seat closing vibrates through the entirety of the rover through the wheels rubber, through the soft lunar surface through the astronauts outer boot, through the inner boot, through the multiple layers of insulation, and liquid filled rubber tubing, vibrates the entire pressure filled suit in between yet more soft materials that is the under suit, to vibrate the air in the helmet louder than the suits life support systems! louder than the astronauts breathing! to activate the VOX! Okaaaay, If that makes you happy then that is fine with me. Wow!

Sound is a form of energy, a pitiful amount in this case, part is transferred to other molecules radiating outward, part is transferred to heat, this is lost energy occurring at every molecule. This results in acoustic attenuation, a loss of frequency. (Not indicated in the waveforms I have examined). This is dependent on acoustic impedance of the material and the incident angle. Metals are quite reflective and soft materials like sand, rubber, cloth are quite absorbent. So in other words that is a ridiculous crock of shit!

Again this is why I do not want to discuss it. This is what I have to deal with, it is not worth my time. I don't give a shit what you believe.

EDIT: Please let these posts stand, then let's be done with it! It is required it seems for understanding the implications of what I discovered, that no one else has in 50 years! It Is the very first go to criticism that I have had to correct possibly over a hundred times. It is quick think, and has no "sound" basis in logic, practical, historical president, theoretical or experimental support. A child can understand this! It is not complicated. it is a good example of simple physics and shows nothing but support for my analysis and is a very good companion to it.
 
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#4
Hi LoneShaman,

I don't think any posts should be deleted from the record, though I don't mind if they (or parts of them) are moved somewhere more appropriate. It's OK if you don't want to continue the exchange. You're welcome to stop responding if that's what you prefer.

A few points in response.

Firstly:

Those are microphones noises and vibrations transmitting though the hull and whatever the go pro is attached to. All hard surfaces that are very conductive to sound. There are no external noises at all.
So, what do you make of the metallic-like clinking and scraping noises between 8:56 and 9:04, during which time the astronaut is fiddling with a tether with a metal clasp on the end?

Secondly, I'm not saying that any of the astronauts you quote are "full of s**t". But nor am I saying that the lunar astronauts are full of it. Here's the annotated transcript of the full video from which you extracted your video clip, featuring the astronauts Alan Bean and Charles Conrad: https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12.sharp.html.

Notice their annotated comments:

[Bean - "I didn't know that (they could hear the hammering in Houston)!"]

[Conrad - "That's neat!"]

[Bean - "Coming through my hand, I guess..."]

[Conrad - "Yeah, it's coming through your hand and getting into the air in the suit and it's transmitting all the way (to the microphones)."]

[Bean - "Isn't that something."]

[Jones - "Now, you had the Snoopy helmets on over your ears."]

[Conrad - "Yeah, but the microphones are out here (in front of their lips). I never heard that before, either. You can hear you hammering just loud and clear."]

[Bean - "I would have said it wasn't possible."]

[Conrad - "The other guy can't hear it. Did you hear yourself hammering?"]

[Bean - "I don't remember. I was so concentrated...
These astronauts seem to accept that hammering sounds were recorded while they were on the moon. So, are you saying that they are full of it? If not, then why do you trust some astronauts and not others?

Thirdly, it is not always necessary that vibrations be first transferred to the air in order for a microphone to pick up sound. Even here on planet Earth, plenty of people have problems with microphones picking up vibrations from all sorts of things. Perhaps in the current case the vibrations were transferred directly to the microphone - i.e., via solid matter alone - without vibrating (to any significant extent) the air first: this would explain why the microphone picked up the sounds yet the astronauts didn't hear them at the time.

I note that you accept that this (vibrations being transferred directly to a microphone rather than through the air) is possible when you write that the GoPro in the video I embedded picked up "vibrations transmitting though the hull". You try to draw a contrast between these hull vibrations and "external" noises - but assuming that by an "external" noise you simply mean some sharp contact of some object with the station that in an atmosphere would make a sound, then those too would potentially vibrate the hull, and thus could potentially be picked up by a microphone in contact with the hull.

This sort of thing might be what caused some of those noises between 8:56 and 9:04 in that GoPro video.
 
#5
Hi LoneShaman,
So, what do you make of the metallic-like clinking and scraping noises between 8:56 and 9:04, during which time the astronaut is fiddling with a tether with a metal clasp on the end?
Very well, I will be breif. already explained, microphones noises and contact with any surface directly on the microphone or conducted through hard surface. You can clearly hear it by the range of frequency. The microphone in the helmet is what this is about, he would hear sounds that come into contact with the hard surface of the suit but no other. This is the difference. The video is not applicable.

Secondly, I'm not saying that any of the astronauts you quote are "full of s**t". But nor am I saying that the lunar astronauts are full of it. Here's the annotated transcript of the full video from which you extracted your video clip, featuring the astronauts Alan Bean and Charles Conrad: https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12.sharp.html.

These astronauts seem to accept that hammering sounds were recorded while they were on the moon. So, are you saying that they are full of it? If not, then why do you trust some astronauts and not others?
I am fully aware of this, It is not hammering it is the mere tapping of a rock. And I have multiple instances where there is no contact with the suit.

Bean does not remember, how starnge. It only happened a couple of times out of several dozen. and never again in decades of actual space walks why is that? It is an intriguing scientific anomaly is it not? It is directly contradicted by the modern astronauts. Period.

Thirdly, it is not always necessary that vibrations be first transferred to the air in order for a microphone to pick up sound.
I never made this claim, look at my video sound requires a medium to propagate. An atmosphere or solid.

I note that you accept that this (vibrations being transferred directly to a microphone rather than through the air) is possible when you write that the GoPro in the video I embedded picked up "vibrations transmitting though the hull". You try to draw a contrast between these hull vibrations and "external" noises - but assuming that by an "external" noise you simply mean some sharp contact of some object with the station that in an atmosphere would make a sound, then those too would potentially vibrate the hull, and thus could potentially be picked up by a microphone in contact with the hull.

This sort of thing might be what caused some of those noises between 8:56 and 9:04 in that GoPro video.
Once again. There is not enough atmosphere out there to transmit sound waves, it is all through hard surfaces very conductive to sound or direct contact of the microphone. If there was a microphone similarly attached to the LRV, you would expect to hear it. The video is not applicable. This is not complicated.

Please stop this.
 
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#6
Bear in mind the difference between types of inference. Just because one observes an anomaly or holds a fact, does not mean that one has proven a case for plurality nor especially proof at all. Strongest type of inference to the weakest, is listed below. This is not taught in school - it is learned by making mistakes in an actual research lab, and learning how to overcome those mistakes.

In general, deduction reduces the set of viable alternatives one need consider. Induction increases or sustains the viable set of alternatives one need consider. Each seeks to converge on one alternative in the end, but must do so through consilience (or falsification if you can get it) - an agreement between multiple angles of examining an observation or effect.

Most of the time in conspiracies, what is called 'evidence' comes in the form of the last 7 categories in orange and red below - and we falsely impute large bootstrap strength to such evidence, when it is not (yet) merited. But to be fair, we must remember that the opposite of conspiracy theory, is an even worse mistake called 'oppression'. Oppression makes the very same mistakes as does the conspiracy theorist, except with oppression, usually harm is involved.

Scientific Inference
Falsification
Consilient Deduction
Deduction
Predictive Confirmation (a priori)
Consilient Induction
Induction

Caution
Abduction
Heteroduction
Linear Induction
Anecdote (modus praesens)


Baloney Alarm
Linear Inductive Affirmation (a posteriori)
Anecdote (modus absens)
Methodical Doubt
 
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#8
I'd like to try to clarify the issue of sound conductance.

1) I hope nobody is suggesting that sound would conduct through the extremely tenuous atmosphere round the moon.

2) However, more to the point, is that if an astronaut uses a tool, he must hold it, so there is at least some continuity between the hammer (say) and the air inside his space suit.

3) I imagine the microphone amplifiers might use some sort of gain control, so that in the absence of other sounds, weak sounds would be boosted.

4) How about sound conductance through the ground and then into the suit?

In other words, I would guess that everything on one of those lunar scenes is coupled together acoustically to some small degree, and automatic gain control might account for what we hear.

LS, should you transfer the rock tapping video here?

David
 
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#9
4) How about sound conductance through the ground and then into the suit?
Very much my contention here. In the absence of all sound (total quiet, which we do not experience often here on Earth) - a sound, especially a percussive sound could easily travel through the LRV, through the lunar soil and up through the suit of the astronaut. If the astronaut was sitting on the vehicle or touching it, this would even be amplified.
 
#10
3) I imagine the microphone amplifiers might use some sort of gain control, so that in the absence of other sounds, weak sounds would be boosted.
This would be called a 'compressor' or 'compression algorithm' - I have several of these in my studio. They sample an incoming sound and begin to mitigate the amplitude of the signal in about 50 ms if it exceeds your gate setting - and taper it by your selected compression taper... The front 10 to 40 ms of a short percussive wave form will slip by even a $400 compression card or utility. But they never completely delete the sound to 0 gain.
 
#12
Very much my contention here. In the absence of all sound (total quiet, which we do not experience often here on Earth) - a sound, especially a percussive sound could easily travel through the LRV, through the lunar soil and up through the suit of the astronaut. If the astronaut was sitting on the vehicle or touching it, this would even be amplified.
There is not absolute silence in the suit, see the modern astronauts statements.

The astronauts during Apollo 16 actually let off charges in the apparent lunar soil while they were on the surface and not a sound was heard. They even state so.

Remember this is the tapping of a rock. Or closing of the lid. A minuscule amount of energy easily absorbed through the mass of the rover and specifically the rubber tires. I would then ask why no modern astronaut appears to experience what you are describing here. They contradict it directly. And nothing is heard in hundreds of other instances that involve far more energy than the tapping of a rock during Apollo?

If what you are saying is true, a space walk would actually be quite noisy business, but this is not the case. It is the complete opposite of what you are saying.
 
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#14
I would like to hear what you guys have to say about why you think the astronauts have such difficulty in crouching.

Look at when he is trying to pick up the hammer, he actually jumps up in order to get the momentum to crouch down. It is quite obvious there is a counter weight that is suspending approximately 40% of his weight. They often stand in a crouching position, sort of hanging by the tension of the counter weight. You can also see the wobble that happens when they turn and come to rest in this position because they are partly hanging by it. Also pay close attention at 1:40. He is suddenly pulled upward onto his tippy toes with no apparent anticipation. What is going on here?


Also there is nothing about lunar gravity or the suit that forces one to move in slow motion, all of the video here is retimed to replicate the actual speed it was filmed at it is mostly 54% faster, however for falling objects a different speed is required to replicate lunar gravity. If you look at the original speed after watching this you can clearly see that it is simply in slow motion.

Different frame rates were used usually relative to the cameras position, and the type of action. However you can not put sand on wires. During the jump salute you can see the disparity between the astronaut fall speed and the sand falling they are different. This disparity is where the errors are made.
 
#15
There is not absolute silence in the suit, see the modern astronauts statements.

If what you are saying is true, a space walk would actually be quite noisy business, but this is not the case. It is the complete opposite of what you are saying.
Absolute silence from the environment through the 'air', to be more precise. The suit itself would be 'low frequency noisy'.

It depends upon the amplitude and frequency distribution of the incoming sound wave - high frequencies attenuate first. So general movement and sound would not be heard. Like being under water - you can hear the tapping of a quarter on the bottom of the pool 50 ft away, but you cannot hear your hand rubbing a surface (high freqs) right next to you.

The tapping of a rock and closing of a lid would be lower frequencies with a higher input amplitude & brisance. I would have expected to hear those sounds over a hot mic just as in the video portrayed.
 
#16
The astronauts during Apollo 16 actually let off charges in the apparent lunar soil while they were on the surface and not a sound was heard. They even state so.
Yes these were almost 1 km away - and the ALSEP seismometers 'heard' the percussion wave... this would be deductive in its inference (in other words would have to have been faked in its entirety), and the fact that the astronauts did not hear it would be mildly inductive affirmation. So if it was faked as an experiment, then it becomes moot as an argument regarding sound transmission effects. The evidence cannot be used both ways.

But this is all moot argument, because:
Both the Apollo 16 mortar shells and the Apollo 17 explosives were detonated by radio control after the astronauts left the lunar surface. (NASA Mission Description)
 
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#17
Absolute silence from the environment through the 'air', to be more precise. The suit itself would be 'low frequency noisy'.

It depends upon the amplitude and frequency distribution of the incoming sound wave - high frequencies attenuate first. So general movement and sound would not be heard. Like being under water - you can hear the tapping of a quarter on the bottom of the pool 50 ft away, but you cannot hear your hand rubbing a surface (high freqs) right next to you.

The tapping of a rock and closing of a lid would be lower frequencies with a higher input amplitude & brisance. I would have expected to hear those sounds over a hot mic just as in the video portrayed.
Yet we don't TES. And it is directly contradicted by modern astronauts. You can't have it both ways. You can't have it sometimes and not others especially when it involves far more energy. It is a contradiction.
 
#19
'Hearing it', and 'picked up on a hot mic' - are two different physics.
If the astronauts don't hear it as they state, it is not going to be picked up by the microphone in there helmet either. This does not make any sense.

In VOX mode noise levels must be over that of all of the suits systems and even the astronauts breath that is directly in front of the microphone. Look at what the astronauts say. "There is no way for that sound to reach you". When you tap a bolt, or hit with a hammer there is nothing. Even when using high powered drills there is nothing. you simply can't have it both ways.
 
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#20
If the astronauts don't hear it as they state, it is not going to be picked up by the microphone in there helmet either. This does not make any sense.
No, entirely different transmission mediums. 'Hearing' requires a pocket of resonant air - and the hot mic is a direct mechanical transmission. This is why you can hear a train coming on railroad tracks for a much longer distance than you can hear it through the air.
 
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