Dr. Alexander Wendt and James Corbett Clash Over Inevitable One World State |301|

#61
Firstly, newb here and thanks to Alex for letting me on board. :)

These kind of discussions about a 'future' always has me wanting to natter on about a very important (to me anyway) sort of side/complementary/parallel issue. That is, how the role of technology (if continued rather unabated on its present course) is going to make the future pretty much unrecognizable to us human beings in the here and now.....and that includes what it'll mean to even be a human being in the first place.

Whereas all of history up till a 150 years or so was fairly static, we've entered into a science and technology explosion that doubles on itself in an ever accelerating fashion.

Talk about inevitability. Tech combined with the increasingly complicated management of all these systems plus huge populations that need managing, I believe will lead to, what to us in the here and now, would view as a dystopia. However, to those 'living' in those times, they will be perfectly adapted to it and be their normal.

This whole 1984-ish, brave new world-ish thing will also come about with the fervent consent and demand by most of the population. Whatever the tech is that'll get them there will be marketed appropriately and consumer devoured accordingly.

Right around the corner is genetic modification and sped up evolution of humans at the hands of humans. Who can afford to have engineered super kids? You guessed it. Where does that leave the other 99%? Here you'll see the whittling down of the population by attrition which would be the most 'kindest' way, I suppose.

At some point will be the ridding of the biological human all together. However, the issue of where consciousness truly comes from would probably be needed figuring out by then, be it from the duality or brain epiphenomena or even something else.

Obviously I leave a lot out during all these societal transitions. That would take a book no doubt.
However, somewhere along the route will be that one world gov't thing probably.

I mean... take a look at star trek. Humans piloting a spaceship a few hundred years from now??? Hell, what once was called a human being WILL be the spaceship ITSELF! lol
welcome ipso... great first post! I think James Corbett was trying to make a similar point in this interview when he talked about the impact of the technology/surveillance grid on the one world state issue. I agree with you, it's a lot more scary when you factor in the changes that are right around the corner (and/or already here).

then again, our history with technology (even pre-PC) would suggest that we can only embrace, adapt and move forward... there's a reason Luddites have such a bad name :)

I still think the issue of strong AI and consciousness is separate (although related). I accept that there will be a lot of folks with chips in their arms and memory enhancers in their skull, but I suspect all this will be a tiny spec on the larger canvas of human consciousness.
 
#62
welcome ipso... great first post! I think James Corbett was trying to make a similar point in this interview when he talked about the impact of the technology/surveillance grid on the one world state issue. I agree with you, it's a lot more scary when you factor in the changes that are right around the corner (and/or already here).

then again, our history with technology (even pre-PC) would suggest that we can only embrace, adapt and move forward... there's a reason Luddites have such a bad name :)

I still think the issue of strong AI and consciousness is separate (although related). I accept that there will be a lot of folks with chips in their arms and memory enhancers in their skull, but I suspect all this will be a tiny spec on the larger canvas of human consciousness.

Thanks Alex. :)

I've just been watching some new Showtime documentary series called "Darknet". 2 episodes in. I implore you to get your hands on ep.2 at least. People are already happily implanting themselves. I sort of knew a relative few were already geeking out on the tech but apparently its a lot bigger than that. And so it's started and on its way.

I agree with the adapt, embrace and move forward thing but only so far as in the idea that it will be the transitioning's that will be the real b*tch. However, once the tech or these proverbial paradigm shifts become ingrained in the culture at large it'll all be regarded as normality.

Personally, I'm 61 and up until around 2006, 2007 my feeling perhaps that its been kind of a linear curve as far as tech has been, Now it looks like that straight line has curved upwards at a 90 degree angle. For me, it's scary. How people willingly and gladly have no qualms about having every single bit of information about themselves, location, habits, likes, dislike, politics, health, work, etc etc etc all gathered up by the corporate/government cloud really disturbs me.

And that's how things like one world gov't will happen. Not by 'storm-troopers' forcing some edict at gunpoint but rather everyone giddily buying it because its cool, its tech, its convenience....
And fear....I'm sure very soon some company will come out with an implant for one's children (if not already) so they'll be safe from abduction. All kids having cells is part way there already. Cells will go away anyway to be supplanted by all communications done with implants.

Wendt and you talked about the 'deep gov't' IIRC as being 'enforcers'. This may sound silly but I would use the the whole Star Wars thing as a sort of metaphor. In that, you basically have this huge empire or federation. You have its peoples/non humans, going about their everyday lives working, making credits/space cash or whatever, lol, raising families, paying taxes and just basically going about their daily lives without any knowledge or concern as to how the so called 'Empire' also goes about murdering and exploiting for its own self interests. Until, of course, some people do protest these unjustice's, then the wrath of of the 'deep gov't' of this empire bears down upon them.
 
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#63
I think there are elite organizations that try to control the world from behind the scenes. ... But I don't think the different power centers want to unite into one world government. Some of the more powerful elite organizations might want to co-opt some of the weaker ones, but I don't see these groups willing to share power with each other or working in the open where the public can make an informed decision.
This is one such group:
http://breakfornews.com/offsitearch...gAmericasSecretTheocrats_byJeffreySharlet.htm

Jesus plus nothing: Undercover among America's secret theocrats
BY Jeffrey Sharlet

...
The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries.
...
Coe has visited nearly every world capital, often with congressmen at his side, “making friends” and inviting them back to the Family's unofficial headquarters, a mansion (just down the road from Ivanwald) that the Family bought in 1978 with $1.5 million donated by, among others, Tom Phillips, then the C.E.O. of arms manufacturer Raytheon, and Ken Olsen, the founder and president of Digital Equipment Corporation.​
...
 
#64
it will be the transitioning's that will be the real b*tch. However, once the tech or these proverbial paradigm shifts become ingrained in the culture at large it'll all be regarded as normality.
thx for the head-up re Darknet... I'll try and get my hands on it.

re transition... I mostly agree, but it's kinda hard because we are constantly transition... e.g. internet, iPhone, real world event (as opposed to fake ones :)). the whole thing is always moving.
 
#65
thx for the head-up re Darknet... I'll try and get my hands on it.
re transition... I mostly agree, but it's kinda hard because we are constantly transition... e.g. internet, iPhone, real world event (as opposed to fake ones :)). the whole thing is always moving.
You're welcome. :)

Regarding transitions... there are gradual ones and abrupt ones, yes. Of course, its all hard to predict. Are these dark covert shadow gov't/corporate cabals, if there are any, willing to live in a world of chaos brought on by some abrupt planned economic calamity or rather dribble changes so as to seem a natural progression towards some end agenda.

There seems to be a new conspiracy going around termed 'breakaway civilization'. That being that there is this whole secret deep dark world of the military industrial complex that already has and have been using very exotic technology such as anti-gravity, time travel, teleportation, etc. if for only one reason to keep it secret so as not to cause a complete economic collapse that would likely occur via the virtual overnight destruction of the oil industry.
I mean, as they say, black ops are always doing tech right now that's 20-40 years ahead of the non military world.
I think also that a variation of the theme is that there's already been advanced civilizations that evolved on earth that are still around and 'visiting' us. But as you all probably know already that's just the tip of the proverbial rabbit hole, lol.
 
#68
This article by Paul Craig Roberts, academic and assistant secretary of the treasury under Reagan, really lays things out,

"Twenty-four of these contributors do not believe the official story. Does this make them “conspiracy theorists,” or does this make them brave souls who are concerned that Reichstag fire type events are replacing Western civil liberty with fascist police states?

Ask yourself, why are those trying to preserve liberty denounced?

What incentive does contributor A.K. Dewdney, Professor Emeritus at the University of Western Ontario, author of ten books about science and mathematics, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Philip Giraldi, former CIA case officer and Executive Director of the Council for the National Interest, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Anthony Hall, Professor of Globalization Studies at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, whose latest book has been endorsed by the American Library Association as “a scholarly tour de force,” have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Mujahid Kamran, Vice Chancellor of Punjab University, Lahore, Pakistan, a Fulbright Scholar and recipient of numerous awards, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Stephen Lendman, syndicated columnist and host on the Progressive Radio News Hour, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does James Petras, Bartle Professor of Sociology at Binghamton University, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Alain Soral, one of France’s public intellectuals, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

What incentive does Robert David Steele, former CIA Clandestine Services Officer, have to be a conspiracy theorist?

The neocons’ whores in the Western media who call these people “conspiracy theorists” are so stupid and unintelligent as to be unqualified to express any opinion.

Dear Western Peoples, if you wish to be able to walk down the streets of your cities without being accosted by police, demanded to present identity papers, searched, detained indefinitely or assassinated without due process of law, if you wish to be able to express your opinion about “your” government and its use of your tax payments, if you wish to be able to discuss current affairs or your personal affairs without being recorded by the NSA or the equivalent in your own country or by both, if you wish to be able to act on your moral conscience and to protest the violence the West applies to Muslims and others unfavored by powerful Western interests, such as Palestinians, if you wish to live in the freedom that was achieved in the West after centuries of struggle, wake up, find time from less meaningful pursuits to become aware of what is being stolen from you. It is late in the game. If you do not stand up for truth, you will have no freedom as there is no freedom without truth."

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/02/02/there-is-no-freedom-without-truth-paul-craig-roberts/


 
#69
There seems to be a new conspiracy going around termed 'breakaway civilization'. That being that there is this whole secret deep dark world of the military industrial complex that already has and have been using very exotic technology such as anti-gravity, time travel, teleportation, etc. if for only one reason to keep it secret so as not to cause a complete economic collapse that would likely occur via the virtual overnight destruction of the oil industry.
Chris Knowles had a nice take on this (http://runesoup.com/2016/01/podcast...n-cargo-cults-tarot-with-christopher-knowles/) i.e. where are all the supposed rich elite breaking off to? where are their mansions, toys and the rest. hard to believe that folks driven by materialistic possessions are 3 miles underground, or off planet in cold dark space.
 
#70
where are all the supposed rich elite breaking off to? where are their mansions, toys and the rest. hard to believe that folks driven by materialistic possessions are 3 miles underground, or off planet in cold dark space.
Dolan is not claiming they are leaving the earth to live underground or in space. He is claiming that the elite are benefiting from advanced technology and withholding it from the rest of humanity.

http://www.afterdisclosure.com/2011/04/breakaway.html
A Breakaway Civilization: What It Is, and What It Means for Us
A Special Analysis By Richard M. Dolan, April 2011
 
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#71
Dolan is not claiming they are leaving the earth to live underground or in space. He is claiming that the elite are benefiting from advanced technology and withholding it from the rest of humanity.

http://www.afterdisclosure.com/2011/04/breakaway.html
A Breakaway Civilization: What It Is, and What It Means for Us
A Special Analysis By Richard M. Dolan, April 2011
what Dolan is saying is not totally incompatible with what Knowels is saying.
 
#72
Wendt is right that the historical trend is towards some form of integrated world order. We are definitely exiting the era of the sovereign nation state, as we have known it for the past few centuries. That is undeniable. But his argument in favour of that taking the form of a monolithic one world government is less certain; and his argument itself is laced through with false premises which completely undermine his credibility. For instance that sovereignty means the right to kill foreigners. This is such an unbalanced and distorted premise (or opinion) that I realised immediately that Wendt is a crank; at least on this issue.

Unfortunately James Corbett is a crank too; in the following way. James is a radical anarchist for whom any state or government of any form is by definition evil and a license to rob and kill not only foreigners but citizens too.

I cannot take either man seriously because of these absurd ideological dogmatic premises; even though I do like James as a person and regard him as highly intelligent and doing some good work. It is just that his radical anarchism undermines his credibility.

Anarchism is a non-solution to the crisis and challenge of human social organisation and governance.

Personally at this point the trends I see are towards an essentially privatized transnational sphere of meta-governance working through nominally democratic local area management systems - what we now call governments and politicians and nation states.
 
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#73
Very interesting conversation. I actually think it fits quite well with Alex's usual themes. I liked this particularly:

"A few bits from Thornley's "Zenarchy": As a doctrine, it holds Universal Enlightenment a prerequisite to abolition of the State, after which the State will inevitably vanish. Or — that failing — nobody will give a damn."

and David's last point:" Personally at this point the trends I see are towards an essentially privatized transnational sphere of meta-governance working through nominally democratic local area management systems - what we now call governments and politicians and nation states."

Putting these together, we have at this point an already globalizing process with a profoundly difficult and precarious balance between the privatized transnational sphere on the one hand, and meta-governance which is for the most part at the mercy of the private sphere (a profound argument, in my view, against any kind of right wing style doctrinaire libertarianism - i add the "right wing" qualifier as much of the original 19th century libertarian thought was very much left wing - against all concentrated power; whereas unadulterated capitalism - no matter what Spencer, Friedman, Rand, Koch, Powell, Hayek or Von Mises may like to fool themselves into believing - inevitably leads to concentrated power).

But the more important point is the one about "universal enlightenment" or as I prefer to refer to it, Awakening. Sri Aurobindo (who had some street cred, i think, as the leader of the independence movement in India in the early 20th century before Ghandi "took it over") wrote some inspiring texts on human psychology and government back around the end of World War I, that I think still have powerful relevance to our times - "The Human Cycle," "The Ideal of Human Unity" (the text which most directly deals with the theme of this thread) and "War and Self Determination".

In the Ideal of Human Unity, in the closing chapters, there is an excellent critique of many ideas of one world government, focusing on the increasing uniformity and mechanization that would result as well as the accrual of almost unheard of power to the central government. Contrasting this dramatically with what he refers to as a federation or even a confederacy of independent groupings which at the same time perceive themselves as facets of a unified global civilization (VERY different from a "one world order") he concludes by recognizing that the only real foundation by which this can arise is a direct perception - at least among leaders, but eventually spreading throughout humanity - that we are all united in Consciousness.

Just to note that he was not a naive individual, Sri Aurobindo sees this as occurring over hundreds, if not thousands of years. This was not a prescription for a program to be achieved in this or the next century.
 
#74
focusing on the increasing uniformity and mechanization that would result as well as the accrual of almost unheard of power to the central government. Contrasting this dramatically with what he refers to as a federation or even a confederacy of independent groupings
cool. funny how this sounds a lot like the formation of the Untied States. of course, this is completely obscured by the federal oligarchy we've become.
 
#75
Yes I think Sri Aurobindo definitely had the US in mind as one of his inspirations. He also spoke movingly of democratic, self-governing, largely self determining localities all over medieval and ancient India. he speaks of how the rulers and Kings of that time provided something like general guidelines but left the individual villages quite free to determine their unique and individual needs. There really is no equivalent in modern political labels - this was not libertarian in the right wing sense as virtually everyone agreed that a "sattwic" (highly ethical, balanced, caring, empathic) society required checks and balances. But it was not liberal or progressive in the modern sense since there was also a widespread understanding that the only real foundation for any society was at least a basis of awakened individuals, or barring that, an aspiration toward awakening (awakening to the reality of the Infinite beyond time and space as the very substance of the universe).

Hardly what you'd find in virtually any well known leader nowadays except the Dalai Lama and possibly in his better more contemplative moments, Pope Francis.
 
#76
I just finally got to listen to this podcast, and the question was asked, how does a one world government look like and how do we become under a one world government. Well without going into Star Trek, and avoiding books on the subject like Shock Doctrine and tales of an economic hitman, Might I recommend the Gundam Multiverse. For Each Universe which is identified by the way you name the year, Cosmic Era, Universal Century, After Colony, and Double 00. But it seems to be a consistent theme that a one world government forms when we go into space.
 
#77
I would put it a different way...
We wont be able to go into space properly until our world has become more integrated and we are no longer at each other's throats
We have a lot of work to do here on Earth in our shared home before we will be able to generate and harness the creative and economic power necessary to become a truly space-faring species
Exactly what political form this will take is uncertain
 
#79
Fiction isn't just about entertainment, but it is also about exploring ideals and subjects. Whitley Streiber wanted to explore his experiences with the visitors and found it easier to do so when he wrote a fiction piece on his experiences. Just like all the scifi I watched, (Gundam) it seems to be that earth becomes under one government when we go into space. And to prove my point, take a look at the he International Flag of Planet Earth. When I first saw this flag, I was reminded of the Hope Prophecy that John Hogue usually quotes about white people. If he is carrying a cross, he has not learned his lesson, but if he is carrying a circle, then he is ready to unite with his red brother. And that's the thought I perceived when I saw this flag.



 
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