Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka, American Cosmic’s Breakaway Civilization |417|

EDIT: I watched more of the vid = I think the good Dr. is behind the times. He wants to know if the information obtained in altered states (e.g. DMT Land) is "real" (i.e. information to coming to us from an external source). Well we know it is! We know that mediums (real ones), people having NDEs and OBEs (at least as far as I'm concerned on the latter) do receive veridical info that didn't come in via their brains. That's what I'm talking about when I'm going on about a shift in the focus of awareness. A shift from brain based/physical based to spirit based. So I think the Dr. is in grade school and I'm trying to talk at a college level and seeking to get to grad school.

Thank you for your comments Eric, I appreciate them.
With reference to your comment above, you will agree that there's the issue of when info obtained in altered states is incorrect or no sense can be made of it (unless of course one wishes to read into it whatever one wants, and gazillions of interpretations are possible).

I think Dr Gallimore is trying to take a science-based approach (of course, it's extremely difficult when dealing with subjective experience....), and trying to distinguish between noise and signal. We are faced with exactly the same issue when trying to make sense of dreams: we know very well that we can get incredibly important "information" from dreams (I'm thinking of precognitive dreams but also of "meaningful dreams" that the dreamer subjectively feels/"knows" are telling him something that makes sense to him), but a lot of dreams appear (to the dreamer himself) to be random and/or more or less just a jumbled assemblage of what was experienced during the day.

In the same way, some things experienced during these altered states are very likely to be just hallucinations (ie, images/ideas coming from ourselves) while others really do seem to be coming from an external source. Needless to say, it's not easy to tell which is which.

But Dr Gallimore is saying and doing much more than this. He is referring to material existence as a game (or you could say a riddle), to which the "solution" is discovering (and accessing) another ("higher"? in any case hidden) dimension. I found the final part of the interview particularly thought-provoking because they discuss the idea that the full "passage" to such a dimension can only properly happen after death, and that even if while still alive we realise that this is all just a game of sorts we should still continue to play until we die (hence we should still care about other people, nature etc etc), still take things "seriously", and not leave the game before it's over. Very thought-provoking stuff, for me at least. (Not that I am pleased that this is all a game, I would find it a very cruel prank but the idea is very plausible)
 
I can't remember where we left this... did you invite him on my behalf? if he shows interest I would be happy to have him on. you might want to point him to this interview.

No I didn't do anything - you said "more later" :-) so I thought you wanted to check him out first. But since you are now giving me the go-ahead I will contact him, fingers crossed he will agree to an interview with you. He has a book out after all, so hopefully he will want to engage with the Skeptiko community, too.
 
Here is one more for your records, Eric:
As a seeker of truth regarding our existance here I am sometimes granted a substantial morsel of food for thought.
I had an old friend who for this story I will name, "Jack." Jack was about as close to a Canadian backwoods redneck hillbilly as a person can get. There is no way he could know anything about Near Death Experiences, but this is what he told me:

"I was crossing railroad tracks where the crossing guards had not dropped so I began to drive across", he said. "Suddenly I looked to one side and saw a train blasting toward me. Oh my God, I'm dead!", he thought. At that instant Jack saw his whole life play before his eyes. "It was like a movie!" He said, "I saw things I didn't even remember!" (till then) "And sitting beside me on the seat, although no one will believe this, was an Angel! ...And I felt a spell of such peace!" He said. Meanwhile the train sheared off the front of his old cattle truck neatly at the firewall leaving the debris thereof along the tracks. Aside from being shook up considerably and suffering a bruised and what would prove to be a chronically painful shoulder, Jack was essentially okay.
For Jack it was a life changing moment. For me, as someone who had been reading of near death experiences (NDE's) out of body experiences (OBE's) and fear death experiences (FDE's), listening to his story of an event which happened over twenty years hence I had no reason to doubt it was genuine.

Yes. FDEs figure into my theory about shrinking ego leads to shift of awareness; another data point. The shock of imminent death causes the ego to retreat. Retreating ego moves awareness away from the physical and to the spiritual; where rationality and thinking are not dominant and perception is via the soul's senses.
 
Perhaps more to the point is that I'd have thought she would have let James or Tyler proof read her book - maybe even write some sections - so maybe they didn't because there is still a covert attempt to be a bit vague about this whole issue. We may not be getting a straight download of the facts, even now.

I am about 29% of the way through the book - trying to read it carefully - but if I wait until I have finished it before commenting, everyone will have moved on to another podcast!

Diana is a historian of religion examining the ET phenomenon as if it was the emergence of a contemporary and new religion. For me the virtue of her examination is that she brings a disciplined and coherent set of skills to things that are rarely engaged with within such a defined skillset. She is, therefore, less interested in science per se as the practice of science and the thoughts and feelings of scientists.

On your second point I entirely sympathise. I am frustrated when guests do not have audio books, because I can force-feed an audiobook more effectively than I can read a kindle. Mercifully American Cosmic is in audiobook form and I knocked off it 3 days.
 
Thank you for your comments Eric, I appreciate them.
With reference to your comment above, you will agree that there's the issue of when info obtained in altered states is incorrect or no sense can be made of it (unless of course one wishes to read into it whatever one wants, and gazillions of interpretations are possible).

I think Dr Gallimore is trying to take a science-based approach (of course, it's extremely difficult when dealing with subjective experience....), and trying to distinguish between noise and signal. We are faced with exactly the same issue when trying to make sense of dreams: we know very well that we can get incredibly important "information" from dreams (I'm thinking of precognitive dreams but also of "meaningful dreams" that the dreamer subjectively feels/"knows" are telling him something that makes sense to him), but a lot of dreams appear (to the dreamer himself) to be random and/or more or less just a jumbled assemblage of what was experienced during the day.

Thank you for engaging.

Yes. I get that he's trying a science based approach. I just don't agree that it will get him where he wants to go; not all the way, anyhow.

In the same way, some things experienced during these altered states are very likely to be just hallucinations (ie, images/ideas coming from ourselves) while others really do seem to be coming from an external source. Needless to say, it's not easy to tell which is which..

Some things experienced in day to day ordinary waking reality life are just hallucinations too. Gallimore even acknowledges that. So his attempt to parse seems strange to me.

But Dr Gallimore is saying and doing much more than this. He is referring to material existence as a game (or you could say a riddle), to which the "solution" is discovering (and accessing) another ("higher"? in any case hidden) dimension. I found the final part of the interview particularly thought-provoking because they discuss the idea that the full "passage" to such a dimension can only properly happen after death, and that even if while still alive we realise that this is all just a game of sorts we should still continue to play until we die (hence we should still care about other people, nature etc etc), still take things "seriously", and not leave the game before it's over. Very thought-provoking stuff, for me at least. (Not that I am pleased that this is all a game, I would find it a very cruel prank but the idea is very plausible)

Well he's saying the same thing I am about leaving the physical as necessary to be able to access a greater range of perceptual potentials within the spirit's sphere of capabilities. However, IMO and in my experience (e.g. OBEs), humans can make some pretty major real perceptual shifts while still associated with their bodies.

I am a proponent of psychedelics with some important caveats and cautions, but these guys are placing way too much emphasis on them for my taste. They almost sound like addicts (I know that DMT isn't addictive, but...). Sure there's a lot of noise in these experiences. I don't understand the emphasis on DMT. IMO, it's a crazy drug. I suppose it's fast action and quick resolution is a virtue in these experimental settings + controlled dosing and apparently somewhat consistent results; but laboratory convenience shouldn't be a criterion in the exploration of reality. . Its close cousin, found in the mushroom, makes a lot more sense to me. It produces a useable coherent experience for those who have become familiar with it. Much of the noise is eliminated with familiarity. Kind of like how a self aware person can eliminate a lot of the normal awareness noise. But DMT is too much of a rush, again, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned the research should be into OBEs. Get people to be able to induce them at will. Then find out what veridical evidence they can produce. This would go a long way to adding confirmation to NDEs as well. But this would be too hard for lazy scientists on a budget. Far easier to pump DMT into people and get them to experience bizarre alien elves, etc. ....this all rubs me the wrong way.
 
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I prefer Dr. Gregory Shushan's take -- NDEs are the source of all religions:

Well that's just a guess - and not a great one in my view. Not even Tylor thought that in Primitive Culture. Tylor thought that "primitives" hallucinated dead folk (more or less, it was years ago I was reading him) - and if you think there are dead folk hanging around that changes your perspective - especially if they tell you stuff. But I noted other responses reminding us that mushrooms have been nominated as a cause (along with other organic stimulants) .

My sense is that our ancestors were naturally animistic and so saw the world in terms of spirit - and they organised cultural narratives around that perspective. At the moment i like Graham Hancock's missing advanced civilisation following global cataclysm and the revival of human culture thereafter. There are a lot of religions that have origins and content aligned to that. I suppose nearly being wiped off the face of the planet might be considered a NDE.

Also some 'gods' are local spirit agencies - natural phenomena as well as places or localities. There are more akin to 'shamanic' experiences or beliefs. One might consider an initiation experiences as a kind of NDE too

But it is also clear that the term 'gods' is interchangeable across a range of phenomena - and is reduced to an almost idiotic level of simplicity by educated Christian gentlemen who controlled much of the thinking about 'gods' in the 20th and 19th centuries.

My final observation is that there seems to be a 'religion' structure built into the human psyche - a kind of template that seems to work well only when the right components are incorporated, but is disastrous if applied to secular human affairs (think Maoism, Stalinism and Nazism). This is, in a way, the premise of Diana's book.

So while I can see that NDEs are a contributor, I think it would be a perilous path for any deity to rely on their prophets nearly dying in order to spread a particular message, especially when there are many other methods that are in play at the same time. It is certainly true that a lot of initiation processes bring a devotee close to death as a transformative experience - and entheogenic experience frequently induced out of body experiences - but there are other forms of encounter with the divine as well.
 
But DMT is too much of a rush, again, IMO.

Hi Eric. I seem to recall that DMT is way more common in us and plants than the notion of distilling it as a pure 'hit' might suggest. So it might be running in the background in some way. Maybe we 'plugged in' via our biochemistry, but don't know it until we do heavy duty yoga stuff and the like? Do you know anything about this? Or have any thoughts?
 
My guess would be that she wrote the book later, and some distortions crept in at that stage - which is not surprising, she is after all, a professor of religion!

Really David! Since you are only 29% of the way through her book I will let her answer that charge. But I do feel obliged to correct your error here - she is a Professor of the History of Religion. Besides, students of religion (of which I am one - but entirely amateur) study the phenomenon of religion.

You would have a case if Diana got her PhD from one of those 'universities' or colleges set up by a religion - but she didn't. This is from Amazon (not the best source in the world, I know...however):

Diana Walsh Pasulka is a Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. Her research focuses on religious and supernatural belief and practice and its connections to digital technologies. She is the author and co-editor of numerous books and essays, the most recent of which are Believing in Bits: New Media and the Supernatural, co-edited with Simone Natalie and forthcoming from Oxford University Press, and Posthumanism: the Future of Homo Sapiens, co-edited with Michael Bess (2018). She is also a history and religion consultant for movies and television, including The Conjuring (2013) and The Conjuring II (2016)
 
Hi Eric. I seem to recall that DMT is way more common in us and plants than the notion of distilling it as a pure 'hit' might suggest. So it might be running in the background in some way. Maybe we 'plugged in' via our biochemistry, but don't know it until we do heavy duty yoga stuff and the like? Do you know anything about this? Or have any thoughts?

Michael,
I'm really good with statistics and analysis, but terrible with the hard sciences, like physics, chemistry, biology, etc. They just don't interest me very much. I'm just a high level concepts guy when it comes to those areas. So please keep that in mind.

Yes. We have DMT in our brains. In fact, any drug that produces an altered mental state - beyond what occurs in the form of delirium from being very sick due to toxic poisoning - works because we have a receptor for it (or for something very molecularly similar) or it acts to block or unblock (agonist/antagonist) another naturally occurring chemical at the synapses. However, these substances are naturally in miniscule amounts in the brain. I'd say that it should be obvious that the drugs are running in the background all of the time, but in limited and balanced ways in most of us. I imagine that certain diets, certain practices could increase or decrease that levels of these drugs. However, I think even then, the levels are so small that they would only have marginal impact on our thinking/perception. Maybe that is enough to set a trend in some people. I don't know. It's nothing like the levels necessary to induce a massive psychedelic experience (or NDE as some "skeptics" like to explain them). You'd have to ask a biologist if it is conceivable that DMT or other drugs could ever naturally reach a brain level anything like what is used to induce psychedelia. True, some of the dose is lost between consumption and the brain in metabolic processes, but I still think that what hits the brain is many times higher than naturally occurring levels.

BTW, DMT is not orally active unless combined with an MAO inhibiter. Sans MAOI, it is broken down in the gut and becomes inactive. So while DMT is everywhere in the plant kingdom, it won't effect you without an MAOI rich food eaten t the same time. Those are much more rare and typically not a choice in the human diet for good reasons - they can make you sick and they can cause quick death by allowing various toxins, normally broken down, to get into your CNS. Certain cheeses and wines can become fatal via severe hypertension, if combined with sufficient MAOIs.

The Psilocybe mushrooms contain what is, basically, an orally active form of DMT - 4-PO-HO-DMT - the extra atoms make it immune to the destructive activity of MAO in the system. These mushrooms can be found all over the world. Of course it is a slightly different drug and it is consumed orally as opposed to smoked or injected like DMT. So it is a different experience to some extent. It's certainly longer lasting and lacks the intense rocket ship to outer space rush of DMT. Yet, with the mushrooms, alien intelligences can be contacted and you can have a coherent conversation with them. By alien I don't mean UFOs (not in my experience, anyhow), but with an intelligence that really does seem to be outside of oneself and that knows/is wise. I have had strong precognitive things told to me that turned out to be valid, by the mushrooms. In fact, divination is a purpose for which the natives have use them for millennia. Again, Dr Gallimore would do well to understand better what is already known. The information acquired from the mushroom spirit(s) have proven valid in many documented cases. He's acting as if he doesn't know this (grant seeking?).
 
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Yes. FDEs figure into my theory about shrinking ego leads to shift of awareness; another data point. The shock of imminent death causes the ego to retreat. Retreating ego moves awareness away from the physical and to the spiritual; where rationality and thinking are not dominant and perception is via the soul's senses.
What is noteworthy of that story as well Eric, is Jack's life review and his awareness of the presence of a being (Angel) with him while he was (probably) out of body. It gives creedence to the possibility that all of us must have in our company an Angel which is somehow recording our entire life. Some near death experiencers explain that their recording or life review was played while they were in the presence of the, "Being of Light" or their perception of God or Jesus.
 
What is noteworthy of that story as well Eric, is Jack's life review and his awareness of the presence of a being (Angel) with him while he was (probably) out of body. It gives creedence to the possibility that all of us must have in our company an Angel which is somehow recording our entire life. Some near death experiencers explain that their recording or life review was played while they were in the presence of the, "Being of Light" or their perception of God or Jesus.

Garry,
Once we leave the paradigm of dense matter behind = once the ego shrinks, and we enter the realm of spirit, anything is possible.

In the words of Jimi Hendrix, "With the power of soul anything is possible. With the power of you, anything you want to do"
 
Yet, with the mushrooms, alien intelligences can be contacted and you can have a coherent conversation with them. By alien I don't mean UFOs (not in my experience, anyhow), but with an intelligence that really does seem to be outside of oneself and that knows/is wise. I have had strong precognitive things told to me that turned out to be valid, by the mushrooms. In fact, divination is a purpose for which the natives have use them for millennia.

Thanks Eric. It sounds like there's a background maintenance connection that is supercharged at times and for specific purposes. I am familiar with mushrooms, but I had no direct and definitive experience with them. That's not to say that the experiences were not transformative, however.

I wanted to observe that we need to be free to use the term "alien" in a general sense that is not confined to the popular UFO/ET sense, because the intelligences that come to us are indeed 'alien' to our human realm - even if they are terrestrial. That's why I don't object to ET in general as a terminology in the sense that ET means outside our sense of the real.

In fact none of my connections with 'alien' agents has happened under the influence of any drug or any intentional 'mind altering' conduct (no yoga, no meditation).

Diana suggests that there are no absolute categories here - and they all fuse together. However, having read the comments for this forum it does seem to me that there will be participants who cannot 'get' Diana's POV. They will want categories familiar to them and reject her synthetic impulse. She ends the book with an account of a previously atheistic scientist converting to Catholicism. That account makes sense as a transitional phase - an entry point - and should not be interpreted (as it will) as an absolute reaction. It confirms Diana's position that the ET/UFO phenomena are fundamentally religious [structural rather than content]. That will be rejected by those who do not read the book and who do not understand religion in the context of disciplined inquiry.
 
Thanks Eric. It sounds like there's a background maintenance connection that is supercharged at times and for specific purposes. I am familiar with mushrooms, but I had no direct and definitive experience with them. That's not to say that the experiences were not transformative, however. .

Right. It's not a guarantee that if take mushroom you'll have an alien intelligence contact. You need to take enough of them at once and, IMO, you need to be familiar enough to get past the noise, but even then it's something that happens occasionally. But did you notice that you were having conversations? Was always just you talking to yourself? Or was there new information and perspective coming through?

I wanted to observe that we need to be free to use the term "alien" in a general sense that is not confined to the popular UFO/ET sense, because the intelligences that come to us are indeed 'alien' to our human realm - even if they are terrestrial. That's why I don't object to ET in general as a terminology in the sense that ET means outside our sense of the real..

With you there.

It confirms Diana's position that the ET/UFO phenomena are fundamentally religious [structural rather than content]. That will be rejected by those who do not read the book and who do not understand religion in the context of disciplined inquiry.

Any time the ego is shrunk the spirit comes to the forefront. This shouldn't even be speculative. It's obvious and necessary. How else could it be? Therefore, these experiences are, by strict definition, "spiritual".

Alex thinks the UFOs are doing something to us. I do not. The experiences often have all of the hallmarks of a diminished ego state. This is especially true of the abduction encounter type. There are similarities between UFOs/Aliens and other spiritual states because they are the same thing. The ego has backed off and the spirit has come to the front. The spirit (soul, unencumbered mind, etc) can perceive all of these non-physical/non-ordinary energies in which the ego isn't interested (from an awareness focus standpoint).

My favorite monkey wrench to toss at people who think in terms of the physical when examining the spiritual is the problem that voodoo presents. Voodoo practitioners get possessed by spirits and gods that behave consistently over time (even generations) and across possessed people. Like really consistently. Everyone know which spirit has possessed a practitioner because the behaviors of that spirit are so consistent. And it's not as if it's all acting by people that know the role well. Outsiders have been possessed by spirits at ceremonies too. Also, possessed people have demonstrated paranormal powers of various types. Now here's the thing, a lot of these spirits and gods are less than stellar. Some are drunks, lewd women, jealous sorts, scary sorts.....a whole gamut. Are these really gods? Are aliens really aliens? Is the being of Light really God of everything? You see my point?

Most researchers just cough and change the subject when I bring this up. It punctures a lot of favorite theories.


Shorter and more to the point

 
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Really David! Since you are only 29% of the way through her book I will let her answer that charge. But I do feel obliged to correct your error here - she is a Professor of the History of Religion. Besides, students of religion (of which I am one - but entirely amateur) study the phenomenon of religion.
How many times do I need to say that I am not knocking her book - indeed I think others here should read it - I was commenting on one particular aspect.

David
 
Alex thinks the UFOs are doing something to us. I do not. The experiences often have all of the hallmarks of a diminished ego state. This is especially true of the abduction encounter type. There are similarities between UFOs/Aliens and other spiritual states because they are the same thing. The ego has backed off and the spirit has come to the front. The spirit (soul, unencumbered mind, etc) can perceive all of these non-physical/non-ordinary energies in which the ego isn't interested (from an awareness focus standpoint).

I won't speak for Alex here. Your POV is essentially supported by Diana's research, and others. If I take you rightly you are saying that the ego impedes awareness. My experience is that its not so much a case of the ego backing off as spirit flooding awareness. Certainly in my case I have often found that spirit has imposed, rather than me having any sense of 'backing off'.

BTW you seem to be on a time zone compatible to me - you local?
 
How many times do I need to say that I am not knocking her book - indeed I think others here should read it - I was commenting on one particular aspect.

Hi David. I do not intend to imply you are knocking her book. I was responding to your comment about the aspect of the book you had read - and disagreeing with your interpretation. Surely that's one of the intents of the forum? Did you think I was being disrespectful? If so, please say so, because that was not intended.
 
I won't speak for Alex here. Your POV is essentially supported by Diana's research, and others. If I take you rightly you are saying that the ego impedes awareness. My experience is that its not so much a case of the ego backing off as spirit flooding awareness. Certainly in my case I have often found that spirit has imposed, rather than me having any sense of 'backing off'.

BTW you seem to be on a time zone compatible to me - you local?

Hey, that's a good point. I will have to integrate it, though it results in the same thing. Spirit can flood ego or ego can shrink and allow spirit to the forefront. Thx.

Yes. IMO, ego impedes awareness because ego is a product of the spirit entering the physical and it is guardian of the physical. So it impedes awareness of the spiritual. It doesn't have to totally, but it tends to take its job too seriously and it becomes hyper vigilant.

I'm an American on East Coast time. I have an old ankle injury that has been acting up. It caused me to awaken very early today and I'm loafing around because walking hurts a lot right now.
 
I can't remember where we left this... did you invite him on my behalf? if he shows interest I would be happy to have him on. you might want to point him to this interview.
Alex, I'm delighted to report that Dr Gallimore has replied to my message - I have just sent you a DM (here on Skeptiko) about it, I look forward to your reply!
 
Alex thinks the UFOs are doing something to us. I do not.
don;t blame me blame Vallee:
Vallee and Davis Physics of High Strangeness Porto ... - Jacques Vallee


My favorite monkey wrench to toss at people who think in terms of the physical when examining the spiritual is the problem that voodoo presents. Voodoo practitioners get possessed by spirits and gods that behave consistently over time (even generations) and across possessed people. Like really consistently. Everyone know which spirit has possessed a practitioner because the behaviors of that spirit are so consistent. And it's not as if it's all acting by people that know the role well. Outsiders have been possessed by spirits at ceremonies too. Also, possessed people have demonstrated paranormal powers of various types. Now here's the thing, a lot of these spirits and gods are less than stellar. Some are drunks, lewd women, jealous sorts, scary sorts.....a whole gamut. Are these really gods?
nice. thx for this.

so:
do voodoo practitioners have life reviews during their NDEs? do they create better than the creator gods? is the left-hand path ok?
 
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